Thriving Churches Are Those That Have Not Redefined Marriage

[stemelbow]

Don't you think there will be a take-away point when it become clear that the Church of Jesus Christ is not going to repeal the law of chastity despite the oh-so-certain predictions of people in the early 2000s?

Whose predicting the repeal of the law of chastity?

No need to change the goalposts.

[Nofear]

Who is saying that "such hastening would include the diminishing of Protestant denominations"? Not I.

 

I don't know where you got that. Your comment is a non-sequitur.

 

Sorry, wasn't accusing you of saying that. It was a thought that occurred to me in response to what you wrote -- not because it was what you were saying though.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Nofear

[Robert F. Smith]

As gay marriage becomes the lay of the land people will see that it is not much different than "traditional" marriage. Gay people will raise kids, get old together and care for each other as they whither away. As that day approaches churches will be filled with people who support gay marriage, because they will have so many examples around them that prove it a useful institution. Whether the official stand of a Church gets it or not is irrelevant, Church to many is people gathering together to worship, learn from each other, and embrace community.

But as I said someday, as with other social issues, the Church will learn to embrace that which it detests now.

Not so, stemelbow.

The trend I see in Western civilization is toward less marriage, more out of wedlock births (planned that way), and ever greater secularism.  There may be some utility for buddies to form civil or religious unions to take advantage of various legal privileges which that may entail, but that will continue to be a pragmatic approach for both same and separate gender couples, and will have little to do with religion.  Religion is on the wane in the West, along with a precipitously declining birth rate.  Especially among traditional Europeans.

 

Most churches, synagogues, and mosques will not be filled, but will wither away.  A prime example is American Reform Judaism, which is growing older and disappearing, while Ultra-Orthodox Judaism continues to grow with a high birth rate and dogged determination to convert their fellow Jews to orthodoxy.  It isn't that Reform Judaism doesn't have very high ethical and moral foundations, nor that they have been unenlightened.  Indeed, they have women rabbis and easy conversions (which the Orthodox will not accept).  They have been so broad-minded that they have ceased to be relevant as a religion.  And this is the key:  A religion must mean something, and it must hew to its basic traditions.  Jettison those traditions, make it too easy, and it ceases to mean anything.  How to have faith in an age of increasing secularism and selfishness?

[thesometimesaint]

I'm probably one of the most liberal poster here. I neither foresee a repeal to the Law of Chastity. Nor have any desire for it to be repealed.

Edited March 24, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Buckeye]

Or to put it another way, religion seems to have little relevance to to the liberal mindset. Hence, it makes little sense for a faith group to liberalize or otherwise politicize its doctrines according to the whims and fashions of the day. They won't win any lasting adherents that way.

 

People who seek religion in their lives are looking for solid guideposts. And if that's true, there will always be those who desire the blessing that the Church of Jesus Christ can bring them, notwithstanding the vain predictions of those who don't like the fact that it won't cave in on same-sex "marriage."

 

Religion seemed to matter quite a lot to those liberal abolistionists and civil rights crusaders.

[Buckeye]

Don't you think there will be a take-away point when it become clear that the Church of Jesus Christ is not going to repeal the law of chastity despite the oh-so-certain predictions of people in the early 2000s?

 

Chastity is defined in the temple as allowing sexual relationships only between legally and lawfully wed spouses. I don't see that changing, but I'm never going to say never. I will say that I wouldn't be surprised to see the temple wording changed in the near future to reflect the church's current emphasis that chasity requires both a lawful marriage and a heterosexual couple.

[JLHPROF]

The law of chastity itself (as defined in the endowment ceremony) doesn't say anything about homosexuality, but there have already been important changes to how it's been interpreted.

 

Not to mention changes to the covenant itself.

If we had left the original wording then SSM would not be an option under it.

 

Chastity is defined in the temple as allowing sexual relationships only between legally and lawfully wed spouses. I don't see that changing, but I'm never going to say never. I will say that I wouldn't be surprised to see the temple wording changed in the near future to reflect the church's current emphasis that chasity requires both a lawful marriage and a heterosexual couple.

 

Well, it's been changed before to be more inclusive.

Edited March 24, 2015 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

Bingo. I predict that I'll be explaining to my great-grand children how The Simpsons was a scandelous show in my time, and Three's Company was equally so in my parents.

 

Personally, I hope that we will be in the Millennial Reign by then (or else there are some scriptures that will need to be removed), Elder Packer's opinion notwithstanding.

[stemelbow]

Not so, stemelbow.

The trend I see in Western civilization is toward less marriage, more out of wedlock births (planned that way), and ever greater secularism.  There may be some utility for buddies to form civil or religious unions to take advantage of various legal privileges which that may entail, but that will continue to be a pragmatic approach for both same and separate gender couples, and will have little to do with religion.  Religion is on the wane in the West, along with a precipitously declining birth rate.  Especially among traditional Europeans.

 

Most churches, synagogues, and mosques will not be filled, but will wither away.  A prime example is American Reform Judaism, which is growing older and disappearing, while Ultra-Orthodox Judaism continues to grow with a high birth rate and dogged determination to convert their fellow Jews to orthodoxy.  It isn't that Reform Judaism doesn't have very high ethical and moral foundations, nor that they have been unenlightened.  Indeed, they have women rabbis and easy conversions (which the Orthodox will not accept).  They have been so broad-minded that they have ceased to be relevant as a religion.  And this is the key:  A religion must mean something, and it must hew to its basic traditions.  Jettison those traditions, make it too easy, and it ceases to mean anything.  How to have faith in an age of increasing secularism and selfishness?

Very interesting ideas. No doubt you make some good points, but I suppose I see religion becoming more expansive and thus more appealing. I realize that religious that try to do that dissipate, but something is going to stick.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As gay marriage becomes the lay of the land people will see that it is not much different than "traditional" marriage. Gay people will raise kids, get old together and care for each other as they whither away. As that day approaches churches will be filled with people who support gay marriage, because they will have so many examples around them that prove it a useful institution. Whether the official stand of a Church gets it or not is irrelevant, Church to many is people gathering together to worship, learn from each other, and embrace community.

But as I said someday, as with other social issues, the Church will learn to embrace that which it detests now.

This thread seems to be evidence to the contrary. But hey don't let me get in the way of your wishful thinking ways.

[Gray]

Not so, stemelbow.

The trend I see in Western civilization is toward less marriage, more out of wedlock births (planned that way), and ever greater secularism.  There may be some utility for buddies to form civil or religious unions to take advantage of various legal privileges which that may entail, but that will continue to be a pragmatic approach for both same and separate gender couples, and will have little to do with religion.  Religion is on the wane in the West, along with a precipitously declining birth rate.  Especially among traditional Europeans.

 

Most churches, synagogues, and mosques will not be filled, but will wither away.  A prime example is American Reform Judaism, which is growing older and disappearing, while Ultra-Orthodox Judaism continues to grow with a high birth rate and dogged determination to convert their fellow Jews to orthodoxy.  It isn't that Reform Judaism doesn't have very high ethical and moral foundations, nor that they have been unenlightened.  Indeed, they have women rabbis and easy conversions (which the Orthodox will not accept).  They have been so broad-minded that they have ceased to be relevant as a religion.  And this is the key:  A religion must mean something, and it must hew to its basic traditions.  Jettison those traditions, make it too easy, and it ceases to mean anything.  How to have faith in an age of increasing secularism and selfishness?

 

Here's a question. Should the ultimate goal of religions be to sustain themselves at all costs? Is there a point where members of a religious community have progressed enough to where they no longer particularly need to participate formally? Is it ever acceptable to "graduate" from religious attendance? Should we look down on those who do?

 

Until recently, intermarriage even among reform Jewish communities was frowned upon (and is still banned in Orthodox communities). You can often find Jewish people with Christian spouses who have been rejected by their community attending Unitarian services. I think that would account for at least some of the declining numbers. 

 

In any case, population growth rate worldwide for Jewish people is about half of the world rate, for whatever reason. 

 

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/111650/world-jewish-population-grows-slowly%C2'>

[JLHPROF]

Here's a question. Should the ultimate goal of religions be to sustain themselves at all costs? Is there a point where members of a religious community have progressed enough to where they no longer particularly need to participate formally? Is it ever acceptable to "graduate" from religious attendance? Should we look down on those who do?

 

I suppose that depends on how you view religion.

Certainly Joseph Smith taught that we should teach people correct principles and let them govern themselves.

But at the same time there are a plethora of Mormon doctrines that require other members in order to be followed.

 

The ultimate goal of religion should be to bring people to God and help them to accomplish his will.

[Storm Rider]

Did the RLDS church really lose tens of thousands of members because they ordained women? I see this repeated a lot, but I don't see any compelling reason to think it's true. Correlation is not causation.

 

The fact is liberals have been abandoning churches more quickly than conservatives, but my understanding is that the reason has nothing to do with the churches themselves liberalizing. Religion in America is now very politicized. Religion has become associated with conservative politics, and that's why liberals are becoming less religious. If anyone needs a CFR I'll look up the reference. Essentially the religious right are scaring liberals away from the pews. 

 

The religion I present isn't devoid of sacrifice or Spirit. It's devoid of destructiveness, which some have associated with "true religion" 

 

They went from 750,000 members to less than 250,000 in a very short time frame.  The change in membership was directly correlated to changing doctrines in an effort to appease the desires of carnal humans. I know that does not jibe with your view of God, church, and gospel, but unfortunately, you don't get to decide for humanity what is true or even right.  In this life you may satiate yourself on the teachings of man, but the eternal realms are governed by an all-knowing Father that has given commandments and teachings to follow.   

[rockpond]

This blog post came to my attention as a link from Daniel Peterson's blog.

 

I post the link, because I keep reading here (most recently from Teancum) that the Church of Jesus Christ is going to die on the vine because it resists the trend to redefine marriage.

 

Yet we read this in the linked blog post:

 

I think the hand wringing (or eager anticipation, depending on one's perspective) is premature that the Church of Jesus Christ will weaken and perhaps die because it won't succumb to societal trends.

 

Oh, I almost forgot to add that the current clock reading is 39 years, 10 months, 2 weeks, 4 days, 5 hours, 32 minutes and 26 seconds and counting down.

 

Per the Church's data...

 

Our growth rate over the last ten years is 2.32% (in members) and 0.97% (in stakes).

 

Compare that to the ten years previous when those rates were 3.25% (in members) and 2.33% (in stakes).

 

Almost a one percent drop in membership growth decade-over-decade and a 1.3% drop in the growth rate of stakes in Zion.

[Avatar4321]

 

The world has too many protesters who are willing to destabilize society; what is needed are those who live moral lives of honest, sincere love for their fellow man.  I loath to support joining the parades of protests for a supposed civil right or even an injustice.  What I believe is that we should act today and be the action of change today rather than parading about in an attempt to change the behaviors of others.

I don't know why but absolutely love this paragraph

[Avatar4321]

Personally, I hope that we will be in the Millennial Reign by then (or else there are some scriptures that will need to be removed), Elder Packer's opinion notwithstanding.

If we keep the commandments and listen to the spirit the millennium will begin much sooner for us

[Scott Lloyd]

Per the Church's data...

 

Our growth rate over the last ten years is 2.32% (in members) and 0.97% (in stakes).

 

Compare that to the ten years previous when those rates were 3.25% (in members) and 2.33% (in stakes).

 

Almost a one percent drop in membership growth decade-over-decade and a 1.3% drop in the growth rate of stakes in Zion.

The point is that watering down of doctrines and expectations doesn't seem to be working too well for those religious groups that are doing it.

It has been suggested that those who are agitating for change in the Church might find the Community of Christ to be a better fit for themselves. Yet look what happened to it after the "progressives" got control of it and started to jettison long-held beliefs: According to Storm Rider's figures, it lost 66 percent of its membership. So much for accommodating societal whims.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

The point is that watering down of doctrines and expectations doesn't seem to be working too well for those religious groups that are doing it.

It has been suggested that those who are agitating for change in the Church might find the Community of Christ to be a better fit for themselves. Yet look what happened to it after the "progressives" got control of it and started to jettison long-held beliefs: According to Storm Rider's figures, lost 66 percent of its membership. So much for accommodating societal whims.

 

I understand that point and the data behind it.  My point was that, by those standards, our battle against gay marriage hasn't had a strengthening effect either.  Our growth rate continues to decline.

 

But, I'm not promoting the accommodation of "societal whims".

[carbon dioxide]

The law of chastity itself (as defined in the endowment ceremony) doesn't say anything about homosexuality,

The law of Chasity is pretty clear what is in bounds and what is out of bounds.  The fact that is does not formally mention homosexuality is not relevant as there is a host of other sexual practices that people involve themselves in that are also not mentioned but hardly anyone would say are not violations of it.  Anyone who think that homosexuality (anything beyond just simple orientation) is not a violation of that law simply deceive themselves or are looking for excuses.

[carbon dioxide]

I posted it basically in response to those who argue that the Church of Jesus Christ will languish and die unless it succumbs to social pressure on same-sex "marriage". At the moment, those religious bodies that are in decline are the ones that are caving in with respect to same-sex "marriage." I think there is a message here.

The Church may have its growth limited by going against the social norms that people accept but so what.  We know that the Church will always be small in comparison to the general population as least until the Christ comes for a 1000 years.  Never in history has the truth been accepted by the majority in society and we should not expect it now.  As long as we keep our proper perspective that we will be few in number, we are to find the few righteous that remain, there is nothing to worry about and things will be just fine.  Social pressure should be the least of our concern.  If our position keeps 99% of the population out of the Church, that is good.  Better to be few and right than with the masses and wrong.

[Tacenda]

The point is that watering down of doctrines and expectations doesn't seem to be working too well for those religious groups that are doing it.

It has been suggested that those who are agitating for change in the Church might find the Community of Christ to be a better fit for themselves. Yet look what happened to it after the "progressives" got control of it and started to jettison long-held beliefs: According to Storm Rider's figures, lost 66 percent of its membership. So much for accommodating societal whims.

Well, in the early years of the LDS church there was an exodus also.

Ironically some of the liberal ex LDS, are being welcomed in by the CoC church. That church is everything they could ever hope for in a church. Recently listened to a podcast with Jon Hamer, former LDS now member of the Community of Christ.

[why me]

Well, in the early years of the LDS church there was an exodus also.

Ironically some of the liberal ex LDS, are being welcomed in by the CoC church. That church is everything they could ever hope for in a church. Recently listened to a podcast with Jon Hamer, former LDS now member of the Community of Christ.

Except they may not have the truth. And the church's growth is rather stagnant, at 250,000. Plus, they also had a split with those who wished to return to the good ol' days when it was the RLDS. In the early years, people existed for various of reasons. One of those was disappointment in JS and others for other reasons. It is quite normal in a world of free agency.

[why me]

The law of Chasity is pretty clear what is in bounds and what is out of bounds.  The fact that is does not formally mention homosexuality is not relevant as there is a host of other sexual practices that people involve themselves in that are also not mentioned but hardly anyone would say are not violations of it.  Anyone who think that homosexuality (anything beyond just simple orientation) is not a violation of that law simply deceive themselves or are looking for excuses.

What attracted the early pagans to christianity was not that it was just like the pagan faith but that it was different. It offered a different way of being in the world. And such a way of being became a magnet for others to experience. Christianity would have died if it succumbed to the ways of the pagans. In fact, in those countries today, where christianity has succumbed to modern day paganism, christianity is dying and in Europe, it will be replaced by a traditional islam (not radical islam). Christianity will be a minor faith with secularism and islam struggling for people's hearts.

[Scott Lloyd]

The Church may have its growth limited by going against the social norms that people accept but so what.  We know that the Church will always be small in comparison to the general population as least until the Christ comes for a 1000 years.  Never in history has the truth been accepted by the majority in society and we should not expect it now.  As long as we keep our proper perspective that we will be few in number, we are to find the few righteous that remain, there is nothing to worry about and things will be just fine.  Social pressure should be the least of our concern.  If our position keeps 99% of the population out of the Church, that is good.  Better to be few and right than with the masses and wrong.

I agree with all of this, but would hasten to add that we should not allow such understanding to tempt us to drift into complacency. There is plenty of work to be done in seeking out the proverbial "honest in heart" and those who, as the scriptures put it, desire the truth but "know not where to find it."

Edited March 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, in the early years of the LDS church there was an exodus also.

Ironically some of the liberal ex LDS, are being welcomed in by the CoC church. That church is everything they could ever hope for in a church. Recently listened to a podcast with Jon Hamer, former LDS now member of the Community of Christ.

I'm well aware that the Community of Christ, being an early break-off from the Church of Jesus Christ, seems to be something of a model for what some want the Church of Jesus Christ to become.

 

I'm not saying that numbers necessarily equate to truth, but it does strike me that the fact that the C of C has lost two-thirds of its number and appears to be languishing as a result of its liberalization in recent times argues against the notion that we must accommodate the world's whims in order to survive or thrive.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd