JLHPROF Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 In light of several recent discussions centering around changes to the Church and its teachings and practices I have noticed I am one of very few who takes a more objective, less subjective view to these things. That's not to say I don't believe anything can ever change, but I apparently believe far less can change than most members and still be approved by God. So here is my question:What elements of your testimony and the teachings you believe and accept do you believe are absolute, not open for interpretation and unchangeable? I anticipate a lot of people will respond that the Savior and his atonement are the only things so I will agree to that. Is there nothing else in Mormonism that is absolute? I will give an example - there are people on this board arguing that either SSM or women being ordained to the priesthood can be revealed from heaven as acceptable. There are others who state that these are absolutes and cannot be changed ever. So I ask again? What are your absolutes?
pogi Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) The articles of faith is a good starting point. Edited March 18, 2015 by pogi 1
JLHPROF Posted March 18, 2015 Author Posted March 18, 2015 I shy away from absolutes though, I don't think they can be known with certainty in this life, but I do believe in them. This is what I'm discovering is a majority opinion on this board. Just curious if anything is absolute to our esteemed members.
Ahab Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 How about narrowing it down some, like what do you believe absolutely about same sex relations and women being ordained to priesthood offices. There are lots and lots of things I believe absolutely but they're line by line and precept by precept issues and difficult for me to generalize about.As far as same sex sexual relations go anything is pretty much okay with God except what we usually refer to as "sexual relations", or "sex", involving the "private" parts. And I know that absolutely.
pogi Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) The articles of faith is a good starting point. But then again we have this from Joseph: “Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled [sic]. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” “The creeds set up stakes, and say hitherto shalt thou come, and no further.- which I cannot subscribe to.” - Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 288)“It is the constitutional disposition of mankind to set up stakes and set bounds to the works and ways of the Almighty.” (The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 320) “The most prominent point of difference in sentiment between the Latter Day Saints and sectarians, was that the latter were all circumscribed by some peculiar creed, which deprived its members the privilege of believing any thing not contained therein; whereas the L.D. Saints had no creed, but are ready to believe all true principles that exist, as they are made manifest from time to time.” Edited March 18, 2015 by pogi
JLHPROF Posted March 18, 2015 Author Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) How about narrowing it down some, like what do you believe absolutely about same sex relations and women being ordained to priesthood offices.There are lots and lots of things I believe absolutely but they're line by line and precept by precept issues and difficult for me to generalize about.As far as same sex sexual relations go anything is pretty much okay with God except what we usually refer to as "sexual relations", or "sex", involving the "private" parts. And I know that absolutely. Well I had the debate last week over certain elements of the ordinances being unchangeable. Others feel they can be changed.Some have stated the SSM & OW can be achieved. Others feel these are absolute no's.What about priesthood? Can we eliminate or add offices or change their functions?What about tithing - can we drop it to 8%?How about theologically - can we decide there was no premortal existence? It may seem far out but similar theological changes have happened over the history of the Church.How about scriptures? Can wording be changed (other than editorial corrections to restore the originals), or can we drop scripture (byebye Book of Abraham)? I realize the question is broad - but everyone has the line in the sand on some things. Where do your firmly held beliefs lay? Edited March 18, 2015 by JLHPROF
JLHPROF Posted March 18, 2015 Author Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) That we all will be resurrected. So the resurrection is an inarguable part of Christ's atonement. I think this people would agree with, but then you never know.Perhaps some science junkie member might believe that dead things coming back to life is impossible. Edited March 18, 2015 by JLHPROF
pogi Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 Belief is ever evolving. Until I can say I know something with absolute certainty, I don't like setting bounds to the works of the Lord. The closest thing I have to knowledge is God's love. 1
Ahab Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 I realize the question is broad - but everyone has the line in the sand on some things. Where do your firmly held beliefs lay?The question is so broad there's not enough time in the day to answer the question.Even on only one broad issue there are many things I know absolutely and other things I'm not sure aboutI'm bowing out now unless you ask a more specific question. This for me is something that would be easier to talk aloud about than to try to type all my absolute beliefs for you.
JLHPROF Posted March 18, 2015 Author Posted March 18, 2015 The question is so broad there's not enough time in the day to answer the question.Even on only one broad issue there are many things I know absolutely and other things I'm not sure aboutI'm bowing out now unless you ask a more specific question. This for me is something that would be easier to talk aloud about than to try to type all my absolute beliefs for you. Then pick one item that you believe to be absolutely unarguably true (other than the atonement). One statement of fact that you would refuse to believe could change. God has a physical body? Baptism must be by immersion? There are three main degrees of glory? Anything?
Teancum Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 Seems to me this is like a "how many angels dance on the head of a pin issue." JS argued that there were no absolutes when he wrote to Nancy Rigdon that some things that were wrong under one circumstance may be right under another. He argued that God can command and revoke. That seems very convenient for the one who claims to speak for God. I think there are a few absolutes but I do not tie them to religious dogma. They are:Don't Kill except in self defense or a just war (which is really hard to define. I would say in defense of home or nation against an aggressor).Don't rapeDon't cheat out the spouse you have made a promise to.Don't abuse childrenDon't do anything that takes away the rights or harms another.Live the Golden Rule. I think this is a good start. 2
pogi Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 absolute beliefs What is an absolute belief anyway? A stubborn uncertainty? To have absolute beliefs is dangerous to spiritual growth, no?
Ahab Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) Then pick one item that you believe to be absolutely unarguably true (other than the atonement). One statement of fact that you would refuse to believe could change. God has a physical body? Baptism must be by immersion? There are three main degrees of glory? Anything?Interesting how my mind wants to single out one big thing to use as an example and how I find it difficult to give one big example involving many ideas because some parts of the issue I know absolutely and other parts I'm either not sure about or just have difficulty trying to put into words that won't be misunderstood.How about: I know absolutely that many of the thoughts and ideas that were conveyed to the world generally through Joseph Smith and other Presidents of the Church were conveyed to them by God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.And powers, too, such as the priesthood of God, and the ability Joseph Smith had to translate the plates from Moroni into what we now know as the Book of Mormon.And many other things too. Many, many things. Edited March 19, 2015 by Ahab
Ahab Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) What is an absolute belief anyway? A stubborn uncertainty? To have absolute beliefs is dangerous to spiritual growth, no?Absolute knowledge works too, if that's easier for you to understand. By absolute belief I mean a belief that is absolute with no room left for doubt, so that I would also say I know it. Edited March 19, 2015 by Ahab 1
pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 I think there are a few absolutes but I do not tie them to religious dogma. They are:Don't Kill except in self defense or a just war (which is really hard to define. I would say in defense of home or nation against an aggressor).Don't rapeDon't cheat out the spouse you have made a promise to.Don't abuse childrenDon't do anything that takes away the rights or harms another.Live the Golden Rule. I think this is a good start. Belief in absolute moral principles hints at a belief in God, because if God does not exist, then morality is just a human convention which is subjective, relative, and non-binding. Are you coming out as a believer? 1
Ahab Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Belief in absolute moral principles hints at a belief in God, because if God does not exist, then morality is just a human convention which is subjective, relative, and non-binding. Are you coming out as a believer? God is the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, and anyone who believes there is a supreme kind of being believes in God although he might not refer to that kind of being as God. 1
Lachoneus Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/kimball-spencer-w_absolute-truth/
Teancum Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Belief in absolute moral principles hints at a belief in God, because if God does not exist, then morality is just a human convention which is subjective, relative, and non-binding. Are you coming out as a believer? I am an LDS member who was a true believer and now am a skeptic. I do not deny or confirm there is a God but I hope so. But I do not believe any of what I listed requires a belief in God. My guiding value in interacting with others of the human species is do no harm. 1
carbon dioxide Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 My views is eternal law can't be changed. Those are absolute. Eternal laws predate the creation of the world and they continue to exist after the earth has ended. Anything that not eternal law and does not contradict or violate eternal law can be changed. I see the law of chastity as an eternal law. Thus I see SSM being on the same level as a man being able to marry his horse in terms of compliance with the law of Chastity. Ordination of women is a different matter. I believe that women can be ordained to the priesthood if God sees it is required to fulfill his work which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. There is nothing to suggest that there is an eternal law that exists that has always prevented the priesthood from being given to mortal women on this world and other worlds that exist. God decides who gets the priesthood and he can give it dogs and cats if he wants. I believe it will only be given to women if it is in accordance to his will and on his timing. Not the timing of a fringe group who have decided that the time is now. Poster removed for horsing around. 2
mfbukowski Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) In light of several recent discussions centering around changes to the Church and its teachings and practices I have noticed I am one of very few who takes a more objective, less subjective view to these things. That's not to say I don't believe anything can ever change, but I apparently believe far less can change than most members and still be approved by God.So here is my question:What elements of your testimony and the teachings you believe and accept do you believe are absolute, not open for interpretation and unchangeable?I anticipate a lot of people will respond that the Savior and his atonement are the only things so I will agree to that. Is there nothing else in Mormonism that is absolute?I will give an example - there are people on this board arguing that either SSM or women being ordained to the priesthood can be revealed from heaven as acceptable. There are others who state that these are absolutes and cannot be changed ever.So I ask again? What are your absolutes?Certain practices. Praxis. Major unambiguous one word beliefs.The golden rule. Prayer. Revelation. Prophets. Testimony. Belief in the restoration. 10 Commandments. The Atonement. The Resurrection.There is a reason this sounds like the temple recommend questions.Language is inherently ambiguous. Good action/behavior is eternal.That which is universal human good behavior will be with us as long as there is humanity. Survival requires it. Edited March 19, 2015 by mfbukowski 2
pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) I am an LDS member who was a true believer and now am a skeptic. I do not deny or confirm there is a God but I hope so. Teancum, I am glad to hear that hope is still alive. I think questioning is healthy, but might I suggest that to live in skepticism and hope simultaneously is to live in discord. A skeptic is inclined to doubt which cannot exist in true hope. Questioning does not require doubt or skepticism. One cannot be a true skeptic and have pure hope at the same time. Man cannot serve two masters. It reminds me of the old Cherokee parable: An old Cherokee chief was teaching his grandson about life... "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. "It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. "One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego. "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. "This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too." The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?" The old chief simply replied, "The one you feed." One wolf is doubt, the other is hope. Which will you feed? But I do not believe any of what I listed requires a belief in God. My guiding value in interacting with others of the human species is do no harm. I agree that what you listed does not require a belief in God if you claim that it is only true for you (relative morality). Once you cross into absolute truths however, it either 1) requires a belief in God, or 2) requires universal human values (which doesn't exist). Edited March 19, 2015 by pogi 2
smac97 Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 In light of several recent discussions centering around changes to the Church and its teachings and practices I have noticed I am one of very few who takes a more objective, less subjective view to these things. That's not to say I don't believe anything can ever change, but I apparently believe far less can change than most members and still be approved by God. So here is my question:What elements of your testimony and the teachings you believe and accept do you believe are absolute, not open for interpretation and unchangeable? I anticipate a lot of people will respond that the Savior and his atonement are the only things so I will agree to that. Is there nothing else in Mormonism that is absolute? I will give an example - there are people on this board arguing that either SSM or women being ordained to the priesthood can be revealed from heaven as acceptable. There are others who state that these are absolutes and cannot be changed ever. So I ask again? What are your absolutes? 1. God exists. 2. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 3. The Priesthood is the power of God. 4. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, as are his successors. 5. We are the children of God. 6. The Restored Gospel is a message, the message, from God. 7. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints represents the introduction of the Kingdom of God on the earth. Thanks, -Smac 4
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