pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 No, that would be an example of somebody being absolutely wrong about something. The clash of absolutes. This should be good.
The Nehor Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Love GodLove thy neighbor Everything else is details.The atonement of Jesus Christ is a detail????????? 2
Ahab Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 How am I wrong?"Another subject of vital importance to the Church was the establishing of the grades of the different quorums. It was ascertained that all but one or two of the Presidents of the Seventies were High Priests, this was declared to be wrong, and not according to the order of heaven."Joseph Smith, TPJS p. 111"The Seventy are to be taken from the quorum of the Elders, and are not to be High Priests."TPJS p. 112.I can't or don't know how to quote with my device but you can find current lists showing priesthood offices with seventy listed as an office. I've seen several. Or just ask a seventy if he was ordained to the office of a seventy.
Ahab Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Yes, I agree, context is important:Alma 27:31Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.Philip. 2: 10 (9-11)That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;Mosiah 16: 1 (1-2)And now, it came to pass that after Abinadi had spoken these words he stretched forth his hand and said: The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just.D&C 88: 104.And this shall be the sound of his trump, saying to all people, both in heaven and in earth, and that are under the earth—for every ear shall hear it, and every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, while they hear the sound of the trump, saying: Fear God, and give glory to him who sitteth upon the throne, forever and ever; for the hour of his judgment is come.Well, I'm not absolutely sure that you're wrong, but I am absolutely sure that I don't think Satan or his followers will. I may have to see that to believe it. It's not like it would do them any good.
pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) The atonement of Jesus Christ is a detail????????? What do you think made the atonement possible? Hint: Christ's love of God and love of neighbor. "Thy will be done." The atonement is the fruition of that law. All things stem from the two great commandments, even the atonement. Granted to call it a "detail" seems to trivialize it, but I don't think that was the intention, but simply to acknowledge that all things stem from "these two commandments" (Matt 22:40). Edited March 19, 2015 by pogi
The Nehor Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 What do you think made the atonement possible? Hint: Christ's love of God and love of neighbor. "Thy will be done." The atonement is the fruition of that law.It is a following of that law. It is also definitely not a detail.
mfbukowski Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 1. God exists. 2. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 3. The Priesthood is the power of God. 4. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, as are his successors. 5. We are the children of God. 6. The Restored Gospel is a message, the message, from God. 7. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints represents the introduction of the Kingdom of God on the earth. Thanks, -SmacExcellent points! 2
pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 but I am absolutely sure that I don't think Satan or his followers will. Does being "absolutely sure that you don't think" something is true, more certain than if you simply don't think something is true? Just curious, because I am absolutely sure that I don't think I know the answer. You see, what was once on your "absolute" list has now transferred over to your uncertain list in the light of an alternate perspective. Does this not give you pause to consider what other "absolutes" might really just be beliefs after all?
Ahab Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Does being "absolutely sure that you don't think" something is true, more certain than if you simply don't think something is true?Yes. I often think or don't think of things without being sure about the idea, much less absolutely/totally sure.You see, what was once on your "absolute" list has now transferred over to your uncertain list in the light of an alternate perspective.You're delusional. That has never happened to me.Does this not give you pause to consider what other "absolutes" might really just be beliefs after all?Uh, no.
pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 On your list of absolutes:There will never be total agreement among all people, not even on only one issue. I replied:"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess..." You eventually acknowledge:Well, I'm not absolutely sure that you're wrong... You see, what was once on your absolute list is now on your uncertain list. You then replied:You're delusional. That has never happened to me. Are you absolutely sure that I am wrong or not? Are you absolutely certain that Satan and his followers will not confess that Jesus is the Christ? The "devils" already confess, all we have left is the mortals. “And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God… (Luke 4:41).” You see, there will be total agreement among all people on at least one issue. 1
Ahab Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 On your list of absolutes:I replied:You eventually acknowledge:You see, what was once on your absolute list is now on your uncertain list. You then replied:Are you absolutely sure that I am wrong or not? Are you absolutely certain that Satan and his followers will not confess that Jesus is the Christ? The "devils" already confess, all we have left is the mortals. “And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God… (Luke 4:41).”You see, there will be total agreement among all people on at least one issue.Still no total agreement on even that one issue. And I'm talking about the "bowing the knee" part of that issue.
DarkScythe Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 i do have this sinking feeling that Tsuzki, might like this thread. 2
pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Still no total agreement on even that one issue. And I'm talking about the "bowing the knee" part of that issue. So you only have a problem with the knee part but acknowledge that every tongue will confess? That means "total agreement" on one issue Ahab. You are like a fish, flip-flopping around trying to find water. How can you say that right after saying this: Well, I'm not absolutely sure that you're wrong, but I am absolutely sure that I don't think Satan or his followers will. I may have to see that to believe it. It's not like it would do them any good. This sounds like a pretty uncertain statement to me. Absolute or not absolute - that is the question? A simple, "I don't know for sure" will suffice. You pretty much already said that above, but now you seem to be flip-flopping. You are the most unstable absolutist I have ever met.
JLHPROF Posted March 19, 2015 Author Posted March 19, 2015 i do have this sinking feeling that Tsuzki, might like this thread. Oh, no. I'll lock it before it goes down that rabbit hole... And be careful - I hear if you say his name too many times he'll appear. :diablo: 2
DarkScythe Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 Oh, no. I'll lock it before it goes down that rabbit hole... And be careful - I hear if you say his name too many times he'll appear. :diablo: Tsuzki, Tsuzki, Tsuzki. I always enjoy his posts. as zanny as he is, he does bring up interesting points of view. and zanny is an understatement with him. 1
Ahab Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 So you only have a problem with the knee part but acknowledge that every tongue will confess? That means "total agreement" on one issue Ahab.No, that's only half way agreeing on that issue. And I'm still going to be waiting until I see everybody confessing and bowing their knee before I will say we're all in agreement on that happening someday. You are like a fish, flip-flopping around trying to find water. Yeah. So? Are you surprised that we're not in total agreement? How can you say that right after saying this:This sounds like a pretty uncertain statement to me.I'm absolutely certain about many many things, not everything.Absolute or not absolute - that is the question? A simple, "I don't know for sure" will suffice. You pretty much already said that above, but now you seem to be flip-flopping. You are the most unstable absolutist I have ever met.What we have here is a misunderstanding. I never said I am absolutely certain about everything.
pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 No, that's only half way agreeing on that issue. And I'm still going to be waiting until I see everybody confessing and bowing their knee before I will say we're all in agreement on that happening someday. I'm at a loss as to what to say - total confession by all is not "half" agreement on an issue. Either way, you continue to acknowledge that you are uncertain if you have to wait to "see." I'm absolutely certain about many many things, not everything. If your not absolutely certain about something, don't put it on your absolute list. It makes me doubt that you are absolutely certain about anything when you flip-flop like that on points that you claim are "absolute". I never said I am absolutely certain about everything. I never claimed you are.
Gervin Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 But then again we have this from Joseph: “Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled [sic]. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” “The creeds set up stakes, and say hitherto shalt thou come, and no further.- which I cannot subscribe to.” - Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 288)“It is the constitutional disposition of mankind to set up stakes and set bounds to the works and ways of the Almighty.” (The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 320) “The most prominent point of difference in sentiment between the Latter Day Saints and sectarians, was that the latter were all circumscribed by some peculiar creed, which deprived its members the privilege of believing any thing not contained therein; whereas the L.D. Saints had no creed, but are ready to believe all true principles that exist, as they are made manifest from time to time.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE5x8PKxd2U
pogi Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 (edited) Gervin, unfortunately the video is not working for me. But I can gather from the title and the length of the video what is most likely cued to come out of little Gary's mouth next, with that probing and doubtful look on his face. All I can respond is:What you talking about what am I talkin about? I didn't do much talkin in that post, mostly just quotes from Joseph Smith. Edited March 20, 2015 by pogi
Ahab Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 I'm at a loss as to what to say - total confession by all is not "half" agreement on an issue. Either way, you continue to acknowledge that you are uncertain if you have to wait to "see."I am reasonably but not absolutely certain that Satan and his followers will not be bowing their knee to Jesus Christ, at least not while being sincere about it, because I do not see or envision them accepting Jesus as their Lord. I'm waiting to see about that.I am absolutely certain that everybody will never agree on everything though, and it's pretty darn rare IF everyone ever agrees on anything.If your not absolutely certain about something, don't put it on your absolute list. It makes me doubt that you are absolutely certain about anything when you flip-flop like that on points that you claim are "absolute".I see your point. Sometimes I am really darn sure and it only seems like I am absolutely sure which can lead to even me being surprised.I never claimed you are.Good. I'm not there yet.
Gray Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Then being Mormon has no benefit and gets you no closer to God than any other religion, or even no religion.And how do we define "love"? I would agree that being Mormon doesn't get you closer to God than other religions, but I would push back on the idea that there is no benefit. I would define love as charity, acceptance and compassion and more Edited March 20, 2015 by Gray 1
Gray Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 The atonement of Jesus Christ is a detail????????? The idea of sacrificing yourself for others goes back again to love. 1
pogi Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 The idea of sacrificing yourself for others goes back again to love. "No greater love hath a man than this..." 1
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