Thinking Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I don't know how long it will be there, but the current Mormon Message states: Happiness Is the Sum of ObedienceDo you understand God's equation for happiness? It links to this video. What jumped out at me was the "Sin will always be sin" comment, especially with the recent issues concerning gay rights. Is this is the LDS Church's left hand not knowing what its right hand is doing?
bluebell Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I'm not sure what you are getting at. Could you clarify?
ksfisher Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Has the church ever said that sin can lead to happiness? I don't see any inconsistency.
Paddy Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I don't see much problem with the video. It generally speaks truth to me. I don't fully agree with this statement "the world changes constantly and dramatically, but God, His commandments, and promised blessings do not change. They are immutable and unchanging,” but otherwise it's a good message. Obedience does bring happiness. But I think we focus to much on it that we forget the higher law of faith. FWIW.
Paddy Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 If sin is viewed as rebellion from God rather than a checklist of action that we should not do or that we don't do, then that phrase makes much more sense.
The Nehor Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Are you under the delusion that it ever stopped being sin?
Robert F. Smith Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 ............................................Happiness Is the Sum of Obedience........................................ Does this include obedience for the wrong reasons?
The Nehor Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Does this include obedience for the wrong reasons?Obedience for the wrong reasons is almost always better then disobedience.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I take prescribed pills for happiness. Am I sinning? 1
Calm Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Obedience for the wrong reasons is almost always better then disobedience.What if disobedience was for the right reasons? Obedience for the wrong reasons seems to me to have a great chance to slip into disobedience as the spirit may depart and disobedience for the right reasons may slip into righteous obedience as one listens to the spirit.
Calm Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I take prescribed pills for happiness. Am I sinning?Only if you are using them to get out of living your life in a way that will bring natural happiness…if you want happines and are too lazy to seek it out yourself and want it to just drop in your lap…that imo is sinning. I take prescribed drugs as well. Not for happiness, but if I don't take them, I am not happy given no sleep leads to pain, suffering and mental craziness. And it is very hard to be happy when one is in acute pain (long term low level pain will likely lead to depression, but I have had pain and been able to be happy, it depends on type and intensity). I look on it as much the same as seeking shelter and clothing…one will be happier in comfortable surroundings where one isn't getting sick all the time…does that mean you are sinning? Of course not! So taking drugs that provide the right type of structure in your brain for your throughts to be sheltered and clothed in isn't going to be sinning either. 1
The Nehor Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 What if disobedience was for the right reasons? Obedience for the wrong reasons seems to me to have a great chance to slip into disobedience as the spirit may depart and disobedience for the right reasons may slip into righteous obedience as one listens to the spirit.I am not convinced that there is such a thing as disobedience to God for the right reasons.
Duncan Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I am not convinced that there is such a thing as disobedience to God for the right reasons. Abraham lying about his wife being his sister? Some people protect the institution at the peril of other things, i.e the Pharisees-they neglected the weightier matters
Tacenda Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) I don't know why but I have a slight aversion to the word "obedience". More the obedience to a man vs. God I guess. Yesterday in Primary we learned about the different prophets throughout time and then sang "Follow the Prophet" each time a class spoke about each individual prophet, if someone not of our faith had happened to be outside near the door they definitely would have thought us a cult. Also, I felt like maybe we needed to step back a bit and instill in the children to follow Jesus also, since wouldn't he be the number one prophet? But no mention of Him. Of course I know that he is the end all be all and everyone should know that, but honestly the younger children need to hear it more often or they might forget. I know we get the mantra "Pray, Pay and Obey" from the anti's, maybe it stems from sermons on obedience. And not enough of the other things in the gospel concerning Jesus/God. ETA: I posted this before listening to the video. My comments probably aren't a good fit to the OP. I think the video was a good one!! Sometimes we don't learn enough about the original "10 Commandments". Edited March 16, 2015 by Tacenda 1
ksfisher Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Abraham lying about his wife being his sister? Some people protect the institution at the peril of other things, i.e the Pharisees-they neglected the weightier matters I don't think your examples of when we are justified in lying work. Sarai was Abraham's sister. "And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."Genesis 20:12 And I'm not sure the Pharisees were good role models for anyone.
The Nehor Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Abraham lying about his wife being his sister? Some people protect the institution at the peril of other things, i.e the Pharisees-they neglected the weightier mattersAbraham appears to have divine allowance for his deception. Even though it was true it was a deception.The Pharisees neglected the weightier matters which was disobedience but Jesus did not tell them to start being disobedient about the less weighty matters. The Pharisee comparison has been blown out of all proportion in ours and other churches to be used as a weapon against all explicit commands from God. 1
The Nehor Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I don't know why but I have a slight aversion to the word "obedience". More the obedience to a man vs. God I guess. Yesterday in Primary we learned about the different prophets throughout time and then sang "Follow the Prophet" each time a class spoke about each individual prophet, if someone not of our faith had happened to be outside near the door they definitely would have thought us a cult. Also, I felt like maybe we needed to step back a bit and instill in the children to follow Jesus also, since wouldn't he be the number one prophet? But no mention of Him. Of course I know that he is the end all be all and everyone should know that, but honestly the younger children need to hear it more often or they might forget. I know we get the mantra "Pray, Pay and Obey" from the anti's, maybe it stems from sermons on obedience. And not enough of the other things in the gospel concerning Jesus/God. ETA: I posted this before listening to the video. My comments probably aren't a good fit to the OP. I think the video was a good one!! Sometimes we don't learn enough about the original "10 Commandments".On the other hand I think obedience needs more emphasis. Of course we hate obedience. Almost everyone grates under that command. I know I do. In one of C.S. Lewis's books the characters visit another planet and they are trying to figure out why earth went wrong and the ruler of Mars figures out that instead of subjecting themselves to God everyone on planet wants to be their own little God. The D&C says the same thing: "seeketh to be a law unto itself". We seem to imagine that our own moral discernment is sufficient to rule ourselves when it is clearly not.Obedience to the prophet is obedience to God. It is scary how much trust God puts in our leaders and in us but He does. I am really not worried if it sounds cultish to others. Obedience to the prophet is vital for those children. 2
stemelbow Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Happiness is so undefined it's nearly impossible to account for the statement it seems to me. Interesting, over the years, I've heard many complain that Utah is the most depressed state, the capital of women getting plastic surgery on their bosoms, the capital of porn subscriptions in the US, the leader in prescriptions for those who suffer from mental illness, tragic suicide difficulties, including as I've heard the highest in the US when it comes to suicides by young men 15-24, and probably other things that aren't coming to mind now. Then we hear this. Then this past Sunday in Sunday school we cover the message that burdens become light when we yoke ourselves to Christ. now I know Utah is not the Church, that many in Utah are not LDS and plenty who are LDS don't practice, as they say. But is there no indication that we either are failing, which itself is a big preaching problem we have about not being perfect, I fear, or we are preaching nonsense in some cases? Happiness? what the hell is it? We're all a little happy and a little sad.
The Nehor Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Happiness is so undefined it's nearly impossible to account for the statement it seems to me. Interesting, over the years, I've heard many complain that Utah is the most depressed state, the capital of women getting plastic surgery on their bosoms, the capital of porn subscriptions in the US, the leader in prescriptions for those who suffer from mental illness, tragic suicide difficulties, including as I've heard the highest in the US when it comes to suicides by young men 15-24, and probably other things that aren't coming to mind now. Then we hear this. Then this past Sunday in Sunday school we cover the message that burdens become light when we yoke ourselves to Christ.now I know Utah is not the Church, that many in Utah are not LDS and plenty who are LDS don't practice, as they say. But is there no indication that we either are failing, which itself is a big preaching problem we have about not being perfect, I fear, or we are preaching nonsense in some cases?Happiness? what the hell is it? We're all a little happy and a little sad.I suspect that those who are committed to the gospel (and understand it) are happier then they would be if they were not. I suspect that the gospel's camp followers and those who half heartedly live the gospel are often more miserable then those who never knew God. Getting spued out of God's mouth for being lukewarm cannot be pleasant.
Buckeye Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I don't know how long it will be there, but the current Mormon Message states: Happiness Is the Sum of ObedienceDo you understand God's equation for happiness? It links to this video. What jumped out at me was the "Sin will always be sin" comment, especially with the recent issues concerning gay rights. Is this is the LDS Church's left hand not knowing what its right hand is doing? I rather like the artwork in the video. It strikes me as (perhaps unintentionally) trinitarian. I've also heard the "sin will always be sin" comment repeated in my local congregations recently. It'll probably be a meme for awhile, maybe even a main one in April's conference, but eventually pass on as other memes come out in October and future conferences. I agree that the comment is understood by many members today to refer specifically to SSM. It reminds me of a comment made to me by a local leader with whom I was discussing my support of civil SSM. I said that I supported primarily because I've seen SS families and the fruit produced by such families and, in my judgement, the fruit is good. The families are as happy as mine and I see God's blessings flowing into them. My leader's response was "that may be the case now, but I'm sure they will be miserable in the eternities." I imagine that such sentiment will remain for some more years, but will be replaced by either strong confirmation (if SS marriages are shown to be miserable in this life) or slow rejection by LDS members (if the current trend continues and SS marriages are shown to allow for as much happiness and blessings as hetero marriages). As for "obedience," just as with faith, hope, etc., this principle has no meaning in the abstract. Surely the church would not approve of the testimony "I choose to be obedient to satan." The key is what one is obedient to. For me, the primary object is the spirit, which very often is in harmony with what the church leaders are teaching. I choose to obey church leaders in the same way the temple instructs my wife to obey me - in as much as the spirit confirms that their words are in harmony with God's will. 1
Buckeye Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Happiness is so undefined it's nearly impossible to account for the statement it seems to me. Interesting, over the years, I've heard many complain that Utah is the most depressed state, the capital of women getting plastic surgery on their bosoms, the capital of porn subscriptions in the US, the leader in prescriptions for those who suffer from mental illness, tragic suicide difficulties, including as I've heard the highest in the US when it comes to suicides by young men 15-24, and probably other things that aren't coming to mind now. Then we hear this. Then this past Sunday in Sunday school we cover the message that burdens become light when we yoke ourselves to Christ.now I know Utah is not the Church, that many in Utah are not LDS and plenty who are LDS don't practice, as they say. But is there no indication that we either are failing, which itself is a big preaching problem we have about not being perfect, I fear, or we are preaching nonsense in some cases?Happiness? what the hell is it? We're all a little happy and a little sad. Studies of 'happiness' tend to show that happiness ebbs and flows during different life periods. I believe that much of Utah's uniqueness in such studies (some show above average happiness, other below), depends mostly on Utah's unique demographics, in particular that it has a younger population.
ksfisher Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Happiness? what the hell is it? We're all a little happy and a little sad. This is true. The gospel does not put a magic shield around us that prevents unhappy thoughts or events from reaching us. But, what it does do, is help us to not cause unhappiness in others. I like this quote from an old Orson Scott Card column in the Deseret News: "What the Lord has promised is that your obedience will mean that you will cause no evil, and that when bad things happen to you, you will be comforted and sustained.It isn't magic. It's natural causality, it's the law, it's the promise of God to every child born into this world. The blessings that can be obtained are obtained by obedience."http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700189566/Magical-thinking-is-not-the-plan.html?pg=all
stemelbow Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I suspect that those who are committed to the gospel (and understand it) are happier then they would be if they were not. That's a big fat guess. Often committed people to the gospel are just as miserable as people not committed to it, and often they are more miserable then people not committed to it. I suspect that the gospel's camp followers and those who half heartedly live the gospel are often more miserable then those who never knew God. Getting spued out of God's mouth for being lukewarm cannot be pleasant. These are just guesses though. Faithful guesses, I suppose, but guesses. 1
stemelbow Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Studies of 'happiness' tend to show that happiness ebbs and flows during different life periods. I believe that much of Utah's uniqueness in such studies (some show above average happiness, other below), depends mostly on Utah's unique demographics, in particular that it has a younger population. I think that's a decent enough consideration. Utah is young compared to everywhere else in the country. That may go into an explanation, but it's also not the whole explanation. Otherwise we'd still have to see some amount of evidence to support the statements--as per happiness and burdens being lighter. This struck me yesterday as we sat in Gospel Doctrine and I looked around as people were commenting on their own happiness and light burdens--those who have seemingly struggled for years and often come off as pretty miserable to me, sadly. All I could think of was all the good people outside the gospel who seem to be much happier and much less burdened than many in my ward. Of course my observations are small, biased, perhaps even ignorant, but it strikes me as interesting given all the talk. What evidence do we have that the gospel lightens burdens or makes people more happy? The statement in this OP is probably more problematic than yesterday's lightening one's burdens, but I wouldn't know. I can assume I'd be less happy outside the gospel, perhaps. But I don't know that. I could assume my burdens would be heavier outside of the gospel, but I don't know that. And I've yet to see any anecdotal situations in which members are better off than non-believers. 1
stemelbow Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 This is true. The gospel does not put a magic shield around us that prevents unhappy thoughts or events from reaching us. But, what it does do, is help us to not cause unhappiness in others. I like this quote from an old Orson Scott Card column in the Deseret News: "What the Lord has promised is that your obedience will mean that you will cause no evil, and that when bad things happen to you, you will be comforted and sustained. It isn't magic. It's natural causality, it's the law, it's the promise of God to every child born into this world. The blessings that can be obtained are obtained by obedience." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700189566/Magical-thinking-is-not-the-plan.html?pg=all it's an interesting though, for sure, but I can't help but realize that many people in the Church do make others feel unhappy, sometimes family and friends. It may speak to us just failing, or it could be others just being miserable, but it makes me pause on this notion nonetheless.
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