Kenngo1969 Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 The way I see it, if all the parties involved did not seem to mind, why should I mind? You cold, callous, cruel, mean, heartless individual, you! You must take umbrage on behalf of everyone who has been wronged anywhere, at any time, in order to prove that you have sufficient charity!!!
Tacenda Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I know polygamy is a bugaboo for you, but if I were you, I wouldn't appeal to the ever-loving, ever-patient, ever-kind, never-judgmental God of the Bible in an effort to bolster your position. After all, we know that God never commanded anybody to kill anyone else. Oh, wait ... Yeah, He did. I don't have time to go through the whole litany, so permit me just a couple of examples: Deuteronomy 20:17Genesis 22:2I don't trust a man and a man wrote the Bible. I just hope that the good stuff sticks and the bad is a crazy made up story to get people to tow the line. JS's polygamy is the crux of my losing my testimony, wish it'd been taught early on, yes I know the information was around, but I didn't know of it. I wish I had, just like BY's polygamy, then it wouldn't have phased me. Of course the details of BY's polygamy is nothing like I was taught. Truth is a big pill to swallow. Or cyanide for me because it killed my testimony, and obliterated life as I knew it. And my prayers for help to understand or know what is true, go unanswered.
JLHPROF Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I don't trust a man and a man wrote the Bible. I just hope that the good stuff sticks and the bad is a crazy made up story to get people to tow the line. More precisely multiple prophets wrote the Bible. Either they were God's mouthpieces or they weren't.Just because we don't like something they wrote about God doesn't make it any less true. God isn't always the hippie-dippy love-fest God that we would like to think. He loves his children more than we can know, and sometimes he still inflicts judgements upon them. And prophecy says he will destroy entire cities and nations in the near future. That is going to be very hard to come to terms with. JS's polygamy is the crux of my losing my testimony, wish it'd been taught early on, yes I know the information was around, but I didn't know of it. I wish I had, just like BY's polygamy, then it wouldn't have phased me. Of course the details of BY's polygamy is nothing like I was taught. You may not believe me but I do have sympathy for this. There are things that have shaken my testimony too. And PLEASE excuse me for feeling like I have to ask the question, but is the issue with polygamy or with your perspective on what polygamy is? There is a big difference between believing polygamy was wrong and being troubled by the fact that polygamy was right.If there is an assumption that it was evil/a mistake then I would think it impossible to ever come to terms with.If there is the feeling that God inflicted it upon us rather than blessed us with it I would think that resentment would be the result.But if we can come to know through prayer and study that it came from God and God only gives us things for our benefit then I think our perspective on the very nature of what polygamy is would have to change. Truth is a big pill to swallow. Or cyanide for me because it killed my testimony, and obliterated life as I knew it. And my prayers for help to understand or know what is true, go unanswered. I believe that God will strengthen testimonies and answer prayers.But having our minds made up going in or asking with resentment on an issue isn't likely to produce an answer.Not that I'm saying you haven't asked willing to accept the answer. I'm sure you have. But I have learned through hard experience that if Gods answer is going to be accepted grudgingly he may choose to withold it.
thesometimesaint Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) More precisely multiple prophets wrote the Bible. Either they were God's mouthpieces or they weren't.Just because we don't like something they wrote about God doesn't make it any less true. God isn't always the hippie-dippy love-fest God that we would like to think. He loves his children more than we can know, and sometimes he still inflicts judgements upon them. And prophecy says he will destroy entire cities and nations in the near future. That is going to be very hard to come to terms with. You may not believe me but I do have sympathy for this. There are things that have shaken my testimony too. And PLEASE excuse me for feeling like I have to ask the question, but is the issue with polygamy or with your perspective on what polygamy is? There is a big difference between believing polygamy was wrong and being troubled by the fact that polygamy was right.If there is an assumption that it was evil/a mistake then I would think it impossible to ever come to terms with.If there is the feeling that God inflicted it upon us rather than blessed us with it I would think that resentment would be the result.But if we can come to know through prayer and study that it came from God and God only gives us things for our benefit then I think our perspective on the very nature of what polygamy is would have to change. I believe that God will strengthen testimonies and answer prayers.But having our minds made up going in or asking with resentment on an issue isn't likely to produce an answer.Not that I'm saying you haven't asked willing to accept the answer. I'm sure you have. But I have learned through hard experience that if Gods answer is going to be accepted grudgingly he may choose to withold it. Agreed. My wife is more in favor of it than I am, but if the Lord commands me to I will do it. However I'll wait until then and not before. Edited March 31, 2015 by thesometimesaint 1
JLHPROF Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Agreed. My wife is more in favor of it than I am, but if the Lord commands me to I will do it. However I'll wait until then and not before. The key is, will you do it willingly and happily, or grudgingly and resentfully?To my mind, one would bring the blessings attendant to the practice, the other would bring the sorrows.
HappyJackWagon Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 More precisely multiple prophets wrote the Bible.More precisely, multiple unknown authors, scribes and translators wrote the bible, attributing stories, teachings, and doctrines to prophets. Oral traditions were amalgamated. If you refute this, could you please provide scholarly references and proof of authorship that will provide provenance related to prophets writing the bible 2
JLHPROF Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 More precisely, multiple unknown authors, scribes and translators wrote the bible, attributing stories, teachings, and doctrines to prophets. Oral traditions were amalgamated. If you refute this, could you please provide scholarly references and proof of authorship that will provide provenance related to prophets writing the bible Nah, I have no interest in heading down your rabbit hole on this one. Regardless of who wrote it, I accept the Bible as historical and doctrinal (a few translation glitches notwithstanding). It's a faith issue.
thesometimesaint Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 The key is, will you do it willingly and happily, or grudgingly and resentfully?To my mind, one would bring the blessings attendant to the practice, the other would bring the sorrows. I've never had any desire for more than one wife. So willingly I can do, I'll have to work on happily. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Nah, I have no interest in heading down your rabbit hole on this one. Regardless of who wrote it, I accept the Bible as historical and doctrinal (a few translation glitches notwithstanding). It's a faith issue.I agree. It's a faith issue. But it is inaccurate and disingenuous to claim it was written by prophets when we can't identify who wrote it. We can simply say, regardless of authorship there are good teachings and values taught within that will bring us closer to God. To me, that statement is true regardless of whether Abraham wrote the bible with his own hand, or Moses, or JK Rowling. It's the good fruit that matters, not historical claims of authorship. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) I've never had any desire for more than one wife. So willingly I can do, I'll have to work on happily.Some of us can't even get one! P.S.: Reminds me of what I said when I heard about the reality show, Mom, I'm Dating a Mormon. I said that if a similar reality show were made about my [Ahem!] "social life," it'd have to be called, Mom, There's No Way I'm Dating That Mormon!. Edited March 31, 2015 by Kenngo1969
danielwoods Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I don't trust a man and a man wrote the Bible. I just hope that the good stuff sticks and the bad is a crazy made up story to get people to tow the line. JS's polygamy is the crux of my losing my testimony, wish it'd been taught early on, yes I know the information was around, but I didn't know of it. I wish I had, just like BY's polygamy, then it wouldn't have phased me. Of course the details of BY's polygamy is nothing like I was taught. Truth is a big pill to swallow. Or cyanide for me because it killed my testimony, and obliterated life as I knew it. And my prayers for help to understand or know what is true, go unanswered. How one knows or understands truth isn't just a small thing. We don't run to the store and pick it up and we're done. In essence, it's analogous to building a large building. The building's foundation is built and constructed on truth, the foundation is the strongest part of a building, because it has to hold everything else. Jesus used the analogy of building on sand or a rock. So, one's expectation can lead to disappointment, thinking that finding truth is always easy. First, how do we know what is true? The LDS answer this with what they call a "testimony" and with that witness they testify that this book or that prophet or church is true. This is a largely subjective process. And I think as you've experienced, subjective processes without external verification can lead to things that aren't necessarily true. Jesus said that there are at least three ways to know what is true. One is using the subjective witness that the LDS proclaim. The other two are not subjective, but rather observable by anyone (which is the foundation of our modern science). One is by observing his works, both when he was alive on earth and now as he works through other people. The last is by their fruits, which are their external attitudes and actions.
Kenngo1969 Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 Still waiting for Buckeye's explanation/retraction of his mischaracterization of what Elder Holland said. (See Post #297 on page 15). [insert man-checking-watch and/or twiddling thumbs icon here.]
HappyJackWagon Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 Buckeye, on 16 Mar 2015 - 2:54 PM, said:Elder Holland has taught that the spirit can lead us down wrong and dangerous roads: https://www.youtube....h?v=yNQC-_srxH8 I've sometimes thought that perhaps this will serve as a parable for the racial priesthood ban. If we hadn't continued the ban through 1978, we wouldn't have known how wrong racism is. Or something like that.Kenngo1969 said- No, he didn't teach any such thing! Now that this has been pointed out to you, I'm sure you'll be eager to present what Elder Holland said in context, and I, in turn, eagerly await your correction of the record. You are very clearly wresting what Elder Holland said to suit your own purposes. Consider this a CFR. I'm not Buckeye but I agree with his interpretation of the Holland video. It is very problematic. Recap- Holland and his son are lost. They pray to know which road they should take. They get an answer. The answer is wrong. The road is a dead end. According to Holland the wrong answer to the question that was asked was really a correct answer because it allowed them to turn around and continue on with confidence. Of course if the road had not dead ended then it could have been big trouble for them. If they had been led to the correct road I would expect a decent chance that they would recognize a landmark of some kind that would also allow them to continue on with confidence. It is totally disingenuous to claim that a wrong answer to a question is really right. The sky is down and the ground is up. Everything is backwards here. 2
stemelbow Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 I don't trust a man and a man wrote the Bible. I just hope that the good stuff sticks and the bad is a crazy made up story to get people to tow the line. JS's polygamy is the crux of my losing my testimony, wish it'd been taught early on, yes I know the information was around, but I didn't know of it. I wish I had, just like BY's polygamy, then it wouldn't have phased me. Of course the details of BY's polygamy is nothing like I was taught. Truth is a big pill to swallow. Or cyanide for me because it killed my testimony, and obliterated life as I knew it. And my prayers for help to understand or know what is true, go unanswered. Interesting, Tacenda. What would have changed, as per your testimony, if you would have learned it earlier? I ask because I've heard this from others. It seems if the way polygamy was practice was the final nail in the coffin for someone, it wouldn't have mattered if the person heard it when he/she was a teenager, or when he/she was an adult. The same conclusion would still have been drawn, no?
stemelbow Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 More precisely multiple prophets wrote the Bible. Either they were God's mouthpieces or they weren't. Just because we don't like something they wrote about God doesn't make it any less true. God isn't always the hippie-dippy love-fest God that we would like to think. He loves his children more than we can know, and sometimes he still inflicts judgements upon them. And prophecy says he will destroy entire cities and nations in the near future. That is going to be very hard to come to terms with. Multiple prophets? Do you imagine Moses truly wrote the first five books, or that it was recorded from oral traditions?
JLHPROF Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 Multiple prophets? Do you imagine Moses truly wrote the first five books, or that it was recorded from oral traditions? # 1 - as I said to Happyjackwagon, I have no interest in going down that rabbit hole discussion.and# 2 - who said I was referring to the first 5 books of the OT? The bible was written by multiple prophets - Peter, Paul, James, John, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc. Simple enough without debating each book individually.
stemelbow Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 # 1 - as I said to Happyjackwagon, I have no interest in going down that rabbit hole discussion. and # 2 - who said I was referring to the first 5 books of the OT? The bible was written by multiple prophets - Peter, Paul, James, John, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc. Simple enough without debating each book individually. Ok. I referred to the first five books as an example, and admittedly the effects of Bokovoy's latest book rang in my ears when I read your post. I see now Happyjackwagon already said something to you about it. I think Paul is probably the closest to being one confirmed of writing any of the books in the NT. other than that, I think all the others you list are debatable. But I'll leave that as it is, realizing I disagree with you. Besides the rest of Bokovoy's series is not out yet. it seems to me many people, whether prophet or not, contributed to what is the written text of the Bible. I don't know that it's accurate to say many prophets wrote the bible, without some sort of caveat.
Calm Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) JS's polygamy is the crux of my losing my testimony, wish it'd been taught early on, yes I know the information was around, but I didn't know of it. I wish I had, just like BY's polygamy, then it wouldn't have phased me. Why is something okay to do if you hear of it early on in your life but not okay to do if you hear it later? That makes no sense to me. It is either okay or not okay (or whatever mixture it is), when I learn of what happened doesn't somehow changed the morality of what was done. Minds might change over time, but at any particular time in one's life, how does the morality of an event matter based on when one learns of it? You believe JS lied. How does you learning that JS lied when you were 16 make it okay that he lied? If you admit there is a possibility that he didn't lied and it is only that you first learned of it in a negative way and therefore you may be wrong about your interpretation of what Joseph did, then surely you should be willing to examine the possibility with an open mind now no matter how old you are just as you would have when you were younger. There is no point in our life where we are excused for being closedminded and unwilling to learn more, imo. Edited April 1, 2015 by calmoriah 3
Calm Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) According to Holland the wrong answer to the question that was asked was really a correct answer because it allowed them to turn around and continue on with confidence. Of course if the road had not dead ended then it could have been big trouble for them. If they had been led to the correct road I would expect a decent chance that they would recognize a landmark of some kind that would also allow them to continue on with confidence. It is totally disingenuous to claim that a wrong answer to a question is really right. The sky is down and the ground is up. Everything is backwards here.It is not a wrong answer if it addresses and resolves for them something that was troubling. It provided them with the security and peace they desired in a very concrete manner. After that experience, they were likely able to enjoy the trip relieved of all anxieties and be able to focus on something other than scanning the landscape for signs they were right. You don't know how long it might have taken to find that landmark they were confident in, you are guessing it would have been enough and that any benefit of knowing before then was not worth the time the detour took…but you are making assumptions about what someone else needs that you have no way of knowing. If one assumes that God must answer all questions in exactly the way one wants him to or expects him to, I suspect that one will recognize a lot less answers than one is given. And I really don't see how one can insist they know how a need should be answered for someone else. It is a great parable, imo, for life given that most of the 'roads' we travel down don't have a final destination that informs us we have done everything we need to do at that point of the journey and the next part is a completely new quest. Instead life is much more start and stop, backup, rotate the map several times, etc. etc. We are not here to see how fast we can complete the journey, but to see what we are ourselves when the journey is done. So for many that involves detours that end up being dead ends so that when they backtrack and start on the right path again, they can wholeheartedly commit themselves without doubt in their hearts. Not everyone can function on purely spiritual answers, they need concrete evidence and experience to teach them where the lines are. We come to life to learn the bitter and the sweet…some may be able to learn what bitter is just by watching others, some need to experience it for themselves and then they are able to recognize that the bitterness is not something they desire, reject it and come back to look for the sweet fruit. There are many who have left the Church and come back to it who show a greater sense of commitment to the gospel and their faith then they ever did before they took that detour. Not everyone needs it, but if some do, then we have no right to claim that it was a waste of their time or the wrong answer for them. Edited April 1, 2015 by calmoriah 2
Tacenda Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) Interesting, Tacenda. What would have changed, as per your testimony, if you would have learned it earlier? I ask because I've heard this from others. It seems if the way polygamy was practice was the final nail in the coffin for someone, it wouldn't have mattered if the person heard it when he/she was a teenager, or when he/she was an adult. The same conclusion would still have been drawn, no?The details of BY's polygamy weren't taught correctly to me, that's why it didn't phase me. Had JS' s polygamy been taught and details left out it also wouldn't have phased me much, just like BY's living it. It's all I knew, and remember as a child walking through the Lion House or Beehive House and seeing the portrait of BY and his wives hanging on the wall. I wonder if I'd visited Nauvoo back then if there would be a picture of Joseph and his wives. Probably not since a lot of it wasn't known or existed. But there could have been an artist's rendition of JS and his wives displayed and also in the visitor's center in Salt Lake. But now even BY's portrait is gone from the wall.I don't know if I've made sense so far, I guess if it had been taught while a youngster instead of learning late in life it would have been no big deal. Of course I keep mentioning details, those may have been a shock to me, unless I was taught them while young. I think that's why Fair Mormon is excited that the seminaries are going to teach about polygamy using the information from the JS's Paper Project and church essays. Edited April 1, 2015 by Tacenda 1
carbon dioxide Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 I've never had any desire for more than one wife. So willingly I can do, I'll have to work on happily.Not only do I not have any desire to have more than one wife but I can't afford it. And it probably would make me a frequent visitor to my local pharmacy. 1
cinepro Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 Multiple prophets? Do you imagine Moses truly wrote the first five books, or that it was recorded from oral traditions? The Church still teaches that Moses literally wrote the first five books of the Bible. He did it as an eyewitness to the events in a vision, as recorded in scripture. So no "oral traditions" were needed. 1
rodheadlee Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 Kirk Van Allen takes a scripture-based, reasonable (IMO) look at whether polygamy is of God. Some of his positions reflect my beliefs.http://mormonverse.com/2015/02/02/dc-132-a-revelation-of-men-not-god/All I have to say is if you have to ask you're not communicating with the same Spirit I am. Each of us will be responsible for our own words and actions.
Kenngo1969 Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 Elder Holland, I think, would object to your description of what the Spirit told them as "wrong AND dangerous". I've watched and pondered that video a number of times, and have found it rather insightful on a certain aspect of how the Spirit works. Trying to apply it as a rationalization in this thread for why church leaders are wrong is rather superficial.Right. Not to mention ... uhhhh, what's the word? ... wrong?!!
Kenngo1969 Posted April 1, 2015 Posted April 1, 2015 Teancum: OK. If Joseph Smith "later went down an erroneous path," how do you explain Doctrine and Covenants 43:3-4? 3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me. 4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead. Still waiting for an answer to this query to you from me earlier in the thread. (If you don't have an answer or are otherwise disinclined to respond, that's OK: Just wanted to make sure you didn't overlook it.)
Recommended Posts