Myth And False Traditions In The Church

[strappinglad]

I shot Elder Ballard when he spoke at in the chapel of the Salt Lake LDS Institute and introduced the new University of Utah president to the LDS students there.

I shot Elder Marlin K. Jensen when he spoke in an LDS chapel for the Sunday devotional of the Mormon History Association Conference in Calgary, Alberta, a few years ago.

Oops, now you have the FBI AND the RCMP on your tail!

[Scott Lloyd]

This can't be right. I've shot photos in chapels before and had them published in a Church-correlated publication. Two examples:

I shot Elder Ballard when he spoke at in the chapel of the Salt Lake LDS Institute and introduced the new University of Utah president to the LDS students there.

I shot Elder Marlin K. Jensen when he spoke in an LDS chapel for the Sunday devotional of the Mormon History Association Conference in Calgary, Alberta, a few years ago.

 

 

Handbook 2 is hosted on lds.org

 

21.2.10 Photographs, Video Recordings, and Broadcasts in Chapels

Taking photographs or making video recordings in chapels is not permitted. Meetings and other events that are held in the chapel may not be broadcast over the Internet or by any other means (see 18.3.1 for an exception).

 

21.1.6 Autographs and Photographs of General Authorities and Area Seventies

 

Church members should not seek the autographs of General Authorities or Area Seventies, including signing in their scriptures, hymnals, or programs. Do ing so detracts from their sacred callings and the spirit of meetings. It also could prevent them from greeting other members. Members should not take photographs of General Authorities or Area Seventies in chapels.

 

 

Were you directed by your employer to take the photographs?

 

 

Thoughts scott

Obviously, I've been an exception to the rule.

 

In the instance with Elder Ballard, he personally invited us to come cover the event, and that contemplated shooting photos as well as reporting the proceedings. Over the years, he has been very conscientious about keeping us informed of his doings that might have general interest and that ought to be brought to the attention of Church members.

 

In the instance with Elder Jensen (whom I count as a personal friend), I'm quite certain he was aware of my presence and intent.

 

In both cases, Correlation, which is tasked with ensuring compliance with Church policy, among other things, and whose representatives know the handbook as well as anyone, raised nary a question about our publication of photos of the respective events when they routinely vetted our content prior to publication.

 

To borrow phrasing from the New Testament, I guess the handbook was made for man and not man for the handbook.

 

I would want this generally understood lest, in the future, some handbook-bound Pharisee should try to hinder me from doing my job.

[Scott Lloyd]

This can't be right. I've shot photos in chapels before and had them published in a Church-correlated publication. Two examples:

I shot Elder Ballard when he spoke at in the chapel of the Salt Lake LDS Institute and introduced the new University of Utah president to the LDS students there.

I shot Elder Marlin K. Jensen when he spoke in an LDS chapel for the Sunday devotional of the Mormon History Association Conference in Calgary, Alberta, a few years ago.

 

 

Oops, now you have the FBI AND the RCMP on your tail!

At my age, most any snippet of dialog is apt to bring a song to my mind.

 

I thought of this one.

[Scott Lloyd]

So what if there is value received for an expense? There better be!

If I had a business (which I do), then I deduct my expenses in that business from my receipts. The remainder is taxable, and tithable. And those expenses are what makes my business possible. I receive value from those expenses, too. If I didn't, then why would I incur them?

The fact that I receive value from my taxes is irrelevant.

I treat my salaried employment as if it were a business, and things like income taxes, union dues, and costs of tools and licenses are legitimate business expenses. If I do not pay these things I cannot have gainful employment. I suggest trying to avoid paying your income tax. The IRS will soon demonstrate to you that it is not optional.

I reiterate that how you personally tithe is your affair.

 

I'm just questioning your rationale about the money you spend for taxes being exempt because it is "a cost of doing business." Carried to its logical extreme, that could apply to anything you spend money on for which you receive value in return: groceries, clothing, rent, transportation, education, etc. You would end up paying tithing only on what was left over each month (or week, or year, or pay period) after you had met all your expenses and bought everything you needed or desired.

 

As an aside, I understand that is precisely what DBMormon does; moreover he wants the Church not only bless his scheme but to make explicit to everyone else that they can do that to. This seems misguided to me, but I also allow that how he manages his tithing is his own affair.

 

Personally, I have always applied my mom's advice . She said repeatedly that I can never get the Lord in my debt. So, if I err at all, I err on the side of paying too much.

[Scott Lloyd]

Just a rhetorical question.  Do you tithe on your income tax refund?  I do not expect an answer just something to think about.

 

 

I'll give you one anyway. The answer is Yes. If I have one. I usually manage to adjust withholding sufficiently well that I either have only a small amount to pay, or a small amount to get back. By "small" I mean less than $200.

My income is sufficiently consistent that this is easy.

Or at least it was until this past year when I started a business. Things might be more complicated this tax season.

If one pays on gross income -- which Stargazer obviously does not do -- it would not be necessary to pay tithing on a tax refund, as that money has already been tithed.

[Tacenda]

If one pays on gross income -- which Stargazer obviously does not do -- it would not be necessary to pay tithing on a tax refund, as that money has already been tithed.

This is how my rational was. And if I paid net I would pay 10% on the tax refund.

[Alan]

The white shirt nonsense really annoys me.

Also, having to wear "sunday best" to enter the temple. The first thing we do in the temple is get changed, so what's the point!

 

The myth about Brigham Young morphing into Joseph at the Nauvoo meeting shortly following the martyrdom really gets to me too. Not one person present recorded such a thing at the time. Yet it is repeatedly trotted out as if it were a given truth.

 

Tithing. We once had a high councillor speak in our ward who said "look for the biggest number on your payslip and pay 10% of that". Just one example of many false doctrines and myths surrounding what constitutes a full tithe.

 

"Joseph Smith once said"......... seems to justify almost any bizarre myth, doctrine, or belief.

 

The prohibition on drinking tea. It isn't scriptural, we British like the stuff, and the church is going to have a devil of a time when it finally gets the go ahead to proselyte in China.

[Storm Rider]

The white shirt nonsense really annoys me.

Also, having to wear "sunday best" to enter the temple. The first thing we do in the temple is get changed, so what's the point!

 

The myth about Brigham Young morphing into Joseph at the Nauvoo meeting shortly following the martyrdom really gets to me too. Not one person present recorded such a thing at the time. Yet it is repeatedly trotted out as if it were a given truth.

 

Tithing. We once had a high councillor speak in our ward who said "look for the biggest number on your payslip and pay 10% of that". Just one example of many false doctrines and myths surrounding what constitutes a full tithe.

 

"Joseph Smith once said"......... seems to justify almost any bizarre myth, doctrine, or belief.

 

The prohibition on drinking tea. It isn't scriptural, we British like the stuff, and the church is going to have a devil of a time when it finally gets the go ahead to proselyte in China.

 

I haven't worn a white shirt for decades.  I think we may be alike and I just felt that we did not need to have such a standard and wanted to make sure other brethren that had the same feeling would also feel comfortable coming to church.  It was a purely charitable act on my part. 

 

False doctrine and a whole host of things is taught with an uncomfortable degree of regularity, but I also think that it is not done maliciously; just individuals trying to do their best and creating standards that have nothing to do with a relationship with Christ.

 

The tea thing....well that is a problem you have and others like you.  I am also conflicted because the 89th Section still reads as it was first read without any changes.  However, since the 1920s the leaders has made it compulsory in order to enter the temple.  Who do we want follow or, more pointedly, do we want to enter the temple?  I do believe the current practice is not by revelation or the scriptures would have been changed; it is a policy that can change whenever the Brethren feel like changing it.  

 

Now, having said that about the WofW, for those that break the W of W I remain convinced that we are disobedient and are punished accordingly or, more positively, we need to repent.

[sdc999]

So, the detriment to having a ward gather for a meal at the church is that the church may have to expend a little effort to have their facilities inspected?  Is that a terrible idea?  That holds as much water as saying we are not going to meet in the chapel because of local fire codes.  We would have to have the building inspected by the Fire Marshall.

 

Our EQ hosted a pancake breakfast once, with the blessing of the bishop.  His first councilor got word and came storming into the kitchen to demand us to stop.  Punches were almost thrown  but the EQ pres stormed out of the building and only came back to help us clean up.    The bishop made his councilor come and apologize to each of us individually.  Funny moment.  A GREAT time was had by all even though people are not supposed to be allowed to have a great time eating at church.  Probably all got a punch in their hell card for enjoying the prohibited event.  

[Tacenda]

So, the detriment to having a ward gather for a meal at the church is that the church may have to expend a little effort to have their facilities inspected? Is that a terrible idea? That holds as much water as saying we are not going to meet in the chapel because of local fire codes. We would have to have the building inspected by the Fire Marshall.

Our EQ hosted a pancake breakfast once, with the blessing of the bishop. His first councilor got word and came storming into the kitchen to demand us to stop. Punches were almost thrown but the EQ pres stormed out of the building and only came back to help us clean up. The bishop made his councilor come and apologize to each of us individually. Funny moment. A GREAT time was had by all even though people are not supposed to be allowed to have a great time eating at church. Probably all got a punch in their hell card for enjoying the prohibited event.

In Utah, people eat in the cultural hall all the time, use the kitchen etc. They just had a manners dinner (forgot the word) for the youth last week.

[Storm Rider]

So, the detriment to having a ward gather for a meal at the church is that the church may have to expend a little effort to have their facilities inspected?  Is that a terrible idea?  That holds as much water as saying we are not going to meet in the chapel because of local fire codes.  We would have to have the building inspected by the Fire Marshall.

 

Our EQ hosted a pancake breakfast once, with the blessing of the bishop.  His first councilor got word and came storming into the kitchen to demand us to stop.  Punches were almost thrown  but the EQ pres stormed out of the building and only came back to help us clean up.    The bishop made his councilor come and apologize to each of us individually.  Funny moment.  A GREAT time was had by all even though people are not supposed to be allowed to have a great time eating at church.  Probably all got a punch in their hell card for enjoying the prohibited event.  

 

Wow, you don't really like to take things to extreme much.  This issue is "Cooking" rather than eating. Hope yourself down to the zoning and permit office of your local government.  Tell them you want to open a restaurant that serves food and then see the requirements for such an establishment.  If you don't want to do it physically, then at least google the topic and find out what is required.  Our "kitchens" are not for cooking so much as keeping things warm.  Our cooking is kept to a minimum.  Better yet, ask you bishop how often you can do all the cooking at church for a weekly EQ dinner.  

 

The Church is not in the business of providing food services, but in feeding the soul.  What activities we have in conjunction with those activities are secondary.

[Storm Rider]

and this is exactly how a myth is created and propagated.  Ignorance and wrong interpretation of events then spout into mountainous indignation followed by rumors and half-cocked innuendo.  

[bluebell]

So, the detriment to having a ward gather for a meal at the church is that the church may have to expend a little effort to have their facilities inspected? Is that a terrible idea? That holds as much water as saying we are not going to meet in the chapel because of local fire codes. We would have to have the building inspected by the Fire Marshall.

Our EQ hosted a pancake breakfast once, with the blessing of the bishop. His first councilor got word and came storming into the kitchen to demand us to stop. Punches were almost thrown but the EQ pres stormed out of the building and only came back to help us clean up. The bishop made his councilor come and apologize to each of us individually. Funny moment. A GREAT time was had by all even though people are not supposed to be allowed to have a great time eating at church. Probably all got a punch in their hell card for enjoying the prohibited event.

Most of the wards I've been a member of have had many meals together in the church, including two pancake breakfasts, and the kitchen was not used to cook any part of the meal other than warming stuff up. The rule is not really a hindrance to such things as long as people are aware of it.

That's a crazy story about your counselor though! Yikes.

[Tacenda]

Most of the wards I've been a member of have had many meals together in the church, including two pancake breakfasts, and the kitchen was not used to cook any part of the meal other than warming stuff up. The rule is not really a hindrance to such things as long as people are aware of it.

That's a crazy story about your counselor though! Yikes.

Maybe his ward should cook pancakes, etc. outside near the church pavilion, that's what our ward does. But I swear we use the stove and oven, but maybe just for warming things as you stated.

[bluebell]

Maybe his ward should cook pancakes, etc. outside near the church pavilion, that's what our ward does. But I swear we use the stove and oven, but maybe just for warming things as you stated.

We've usually just had people bring their own electric griddles to church and cooked either in the kitchen withies or in the cultural hall.

I've only been in one church that had a pavilion. That I remember anyway.

[sdc999]

"our cooking is kept to a minimum".  So, you are saying the church cooks.  you either cook (need a permit) or don't cook.  Which is it?  So, again, it requires effort.  A lot of churches cook.  Having a meal at church does not make someone a heathen.  You can possibly get the soul fed and the belly at the same time.  Hard to believe, huh?  

I've very aware of red tape and requirements for different businesses.  

But churches fall under a different requirement so long as they don't go into the food production business.

 

Your event is not considered a temporary food service if the food is prepared or provided by members of a group for members of the group and their invited guests, such as:

• A meeting or an event for a private or charitable organization, association, a fraternal group, or club
• An activity in a church or other religious congregation for members
• A gathering such as a party, picnic or potluck where food is shared.
• Private weddings that do their own food preparation

[Garden Girl]

In our ward a few years ago, we used to actually cook... then the fire insurance and other regulations got in the way... Now we use the stoves for warming only.  Once a month we have "Linger Longer" where ward members bring cooked food, prepared at home in crock pots or  casseroles, etc.  The food is then warmed in the kitchen and we set out a beautiful buffet luncheon for all of those who want to "linger" and socialize.   Tables are set up in the  cultural hall and the ward gathers to enjoy the fellowship of friends they only get to talk to briefly on regular Sundays.   

For funerals, our ward also puts on a dinner for family and close friends at the end of a funeral... Recently I took a large casserole of "funeral" potatoes... and the next week a large fruit salad.  The families are always so appreciative because we really do a wonderful job.  This allows them time to sit and visit... and remember... their loved one while enjoying a beautiful meal together...

 

GG  

Edited February 23, 2015 by Garden Girl

[strappinglad]

The no cooking rule is just another example of ' govmint regulations ' getting in the way of people having a good time....and burning down the odd church.

[ksfisher]

So, the detriment to having a ward gather for a meal at the church is that the church may have to expend a little effort to have their facilities inspected?  Is that a terrible idea?  That holds as much water as saying we are not going to meet in the chapel because of local fire codes.  We would have to have the building inspected by the Fire Marshall.

 

Our EQ hosted a pancake breakfast once, with the blessing of the bishop.  His first councilor got word and came storming into the kitchen to demand us to stop.  Punches were almost thrown  but the EQ pres stormed out of the building and only came back to help us clean up.    The bishop made his councilor come and apologize to each of us individually.  Funny moment.  A GREAT time was had by all even though people are not supposed to be allowed to have a great time eating at church.  Probably all got a punch in their hell card for enjoying the prohibited event.  

 

People who were preparing the food would also have to have food handlers permits.

 

Eating at church is not a problem.  Warming or holding food at church is not a problem.  But preparing a meal for a bunch of people falls under local health code laws.  Inspections would have to be made and permits issued.

[KevinG]

The no cooking rule is just another example of ' govmint regulations ' getting in the way of people having a good time....and burning down the odd church.

 

So when President Clinton was mis-remembering all of the church burnings, it was really about potlucks that got out of hand?

[ERayR]

 

"our cooking is kept to a minimum".  So, you are saying the church cooks.  you either cook (need a permit) or don't cook.  Which is it?  So, again, it requires effort.  A lot of churches cook.  Having a meal at church does not make someone a heathen.  You can possibly get the soul fed and the belly at the same time.  Hard to believe, huh?  

I've very aware of red tape and requirements for different businesses.  

But churches fall under a different requirement so long as they don't go into the food production business.

 

Your event is not considered a temporary food service if the food is prepared or provided by members of a group for members of the group and their invited guests, such as:

• A meeting or an event for a private or charitable organization, association, a fraternal group, or club
• An activity in a church or other religious congregation for members
• A gathering such as a party, picnic or potluck where food is shared.
• Private weddings that do their own food preparation

 

 

So much to do about nothing.  To cook pancakes, eggs and sausage you do not even need the kitchen.  Just set up a few electric griddles on tables and have at it. 

[ksfisher]

The no cooking rule is just another example of ' govmint regulations ' getting in the way of people having a good time....and burning down the odd church.

 

The no cooking rule is designed to prevent people who have no food safety training from getting a bunch of other people sick, or worse.  Restaurants are shut down all the time because of unsanitary conditions and unsafe food handling. 

 

Protecting us from hazards is one of the things we pay government to do. https://public.cdpehs.com/UTEnvPbl/VW_EST_PUBLIC/ShowVW_EST_PUBLICTablePage.aspx

 

Unfortunately, cooking food at church and serving it to a bunch of people falls under the same rules and a restaurant would.  Hence, the church "kitchen"  would need to have the same standards in place as a commercial restaurant or any kind of congregant feeding site, such as a Catholic soup kitchen.

Edited February 23, 2015 by ksfisher

[tonie]

Obviously, I've been an exception to the rule.

 

Obvious indeed, which was obviously ignored with the "This can't be right" statement.

[tonie]

1. Closing curtains to baptismal font as soon as it is completed.

"

Mine might be more complaints though.

 

Ah the wonders of personal interpretation:

 

Facilities Management Guidelines for Meetinghouses and Other Church Property

 

Font

When ... not in use, ... must remain closed and locked. ... drained and cleaned immediately after each baptismal service.

[ksfisher]

Ah the wonders of personal interpretation:

 

Facilities Management Guidelines for Meetinghouses and Other Church Property

 

Font

When ... not in use, ... must remain closed and locked. ... drained and cleaned immediately after each baptismal service.

 

As was explained earlier, a draining font makes noise and can disrupt the reverent atmosphere for the remaining parts of the service.  It has nothing to do with any sort of misinterpretation, but for a very practical reason.

Edited February 23, 2015 by ksfisher