Grudunza Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Nobody in particular. Just something to remember when you are calculating tithing.It is addressed to someone in particular... And not the general faithful tithe payers, but the spiritual leaders who were misusing those tithes. According to JST Genesis, God does not expect us to tithe until we cover our needs. We are not "robbing" him to responsibly care for our families and cover our debts. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 It is addressed to someone in particular... And not the general faithful tithe payers, but the spiritual leaders who were misusing those tithes.According to JST Genesis, God does not expect us to tithe until we cover our needs. We are not "robbing" him to responsibly care for our families and cover our debts. Actually, God expects us to be willing to sacrifice 100% of everything we have (according to the Lectures on Faith and other places). Tithing is the lesser expectation. 3
ERayR Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 It is addressed to someone in particular... And not the general faithful tithe payers, but the spiritual leaders who were misusing those tithes.According to JST Genesis, God does not expect us to tithe until we cover our needs. We are not "robbing" him to responsibly care for our families and cover our debts. I told you if it means anything to you use it. If it doesn't forget it.
Grudunza Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Actually, God expects us to be willing to sacrifice 100% of everything we have (according to the Lectures on Faith and other places). Tithing is the lesser expectation.True. Doesn't change the part and portion that tithing plays, and what the expectations are.
toon Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 no photography in the chapel even outside sacrament meeting. This was in the handbook last I knew I wasn't paying too much attention, skimmed your post, and thought it read, "no pornography in the chapel . . "
Scott Lloyd Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 True. Doesn't change the part and portion that tithing plays, and what the expectations are.The following is from the Sunday School teacher's manual for the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History course: The First Presidency gave the following definition of tithing: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970).President Joseph Fielding Smith of the Quorum of the Twelve explained: “It is remarkable how many excuses can be made and interpretations given as to what constitutes the tenth. … It is written, however, that as we measure it shall be measured to us again. If we are stingy with the Lord, he may be stingy with us, or in other words, withhold his blessings” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 2 vols. [1953], 2:92). So, by insisting that the "expectations" are less than what is implied in this statement from the First Presidency (they say "income," not "surplus") you are thus contradicting the First Presidency and unwisely "making [another] statement" from what they have said, just as surely as is someone who insists that tithing must be paid on the gross rather than the net. 1
toon Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 3. I'll list this as a tradition since it is done so often. "I would be ungrateful if I didn't stand and bear my testimony." Maybe a bit off topic, but why does the Spirit prompt so many people to only bear their testimony during the last 5 minutes of the meeting, guaranteeing that we will go overtime, as opposed to thos long dead silence portions in the middle of the meeting. And assuming that what's really going on is that the Spirit promted them earlier, but that they didn't act upon it until the last minute, why doesn't the Spirit then prompt them to not bear their testimony.
ERayR Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Also, taking the Lord's name in vain meaning expressions like "OMG." I agree that it can include that in the sense that many can overuse that phrase and others like it, but depends on the use as to whether it's really in "vain." If we are really thinking of God or asking for His help in a moment while expressing that phrase, then I don't believe it's in vain. And my understanding is that "in vain" is meant more for using His name in connection with a purpose that is false or without sanction from Him. It has always seemed ironic, to me, that those who speak his name the most think of him the least. 1
KevinG Posted February 23, 2015 Author Posted February 23, 2015 I wasn't paying too much attention, skimmed your post, and thought it read, "no pornography in the chapel . . " That'll be in the next handbook under "use of electronic tablets for scripture study and talks..."
KevinG Posted February 23, 2015 Author Posted February 23, 2015 Maybe a bit off topic, but why does the Spirit prompt so many people to only bear their testimony during the last 5 minutes of the meeting, guaranteeing that we will go overtime, as opposed to thos long dead silence portions in the middle of the meeting. And assuming that what's really going on is that the Spirit promted them earlier, but that they didn't act upon it until the last minute, why doesn't the Spirit then prompt them to not bear their testimony. The period between the first five minutes and the last five minutes is reserved for wrestling with angels. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) It is addressed to someone in particular... And not the general faithful tithe payers, but the spiritual leaders who were misusing those tithes.According to JST Genesis, God does not expect us to tithe until we cover our needs. We are not "robbing" him to responsibly care for our families and cover our debts.Here is that passage: 39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need. I don't interpret it as you do. To me, it is an affirmation of the generosity of God to Abram, giving him more than he needed, and a statement that of the totality of his possessions (all that he had), Abram paid tithes. An ambiguous reading of a single scriptural passage is a rather tenuous basis on which to rest one's conception of tithe paying. Edited February 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
ERayR Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Here is that passage: I don't interpret it as you do. To me, it is an affirmation of the generosity of God to Abram, giving him more than he needed, and a statement that of the totality of his possessions, Abram paid tithes. An ambiguous reading of a single scriptural passage is a rather tenuous basis on which to rest one's conception of tithe paying. To me it indicates Abraham was living the law of consecration. He gave more than one-tenth.
sdc999 Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 The tithing comments are getting interesting. I've got my popcorn for this. 'I pay my tithes better than you do.''nuh-uh, my interpretation is better.''no way man. did you hear my change clanking in the bucket?''I gave 10% on gross.''well you're wrong, only supposed to give on excess.' Keep it going. Keeping score : ERayR may be a point ahead right now. Scott Lloyd charging strong in second place.
Teancum Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) The following is from the Sunday School teacher's manual for the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History course: So, by insisting that the "expectations" are less than what is implied in this statement from the First Presidency (they say "income," not "surplus") you are thus contradicting the First Presidency and unwisely "making [another] statement" from what they have said, just as surely as is someone who insists that tithing must be paid on the gross rather than the net.So what is the definition of income. Income in accounting and finance means NET after all business expenses. I think though you and the Church defines income as gross revenue. Edited February 23, 2015 by Teancum
JLHPROF Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Here is that passage: I don't interpret it as you do. To me, it is an affirmation of the generosity of God to Abram, giving him more than he needed, and a statement that of the totality of his possessions, Abram paid tithes. An ambiguous reading of a single scriptural passage is a rather tenuous basis on which to rest one's conception of tithe paying. To me it indicates Abraham was living the law of consecration. He gave more than one-tenth. To me it indicates both. Abraham was living the law of consecration. He then (as the law of consecration still requires) tithed 10% of his surplus, that "which God had given him more than that which he had need". That is how tithing and the law of consecration are set up. Tithing is supposed to be on our surplus. When consecration was given up on completely the tithing asked for by the church was switched to 10% of our income.Net vs. Gross don't even factor into it since 10% of income isn't even scriptural (even though that's what I pay). D&C 119:4 - 1/10th of your 'interest'D&C 119:5 - tithed of your "surplus"Alma 13:15 - 1/10 of "all he possessed"Deut 14:28 - a tithe of thine "increase" So yeah, tithing is paid on your "interest/surplus/all you possess/increase". That's not confusing at all... 1
Scott Lloyd Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 The tithing comments are getting interesting. I've got my popcorn for this. 'I pay my tithes better than you do.''nuh-uh, my interpretation is better.''no way man. did you hear my change clanking in the bucket?''I gave 10% on gross.''well you're wrong, only supposed to give on excess.' Keep it going. Keeping score : ERayR may be a point ahead right now. Scott Lloyd charging strong in second place.All I've done is support the First Presidency's definition, which I quoted.
ERayR Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 So what is the definition of income. Income in accounting and finance means NET after all business expenses. I think though you and the Church defines income as gross revenue. Not necessarily there is gross income and net income and there is EBIT (earnings before interest and taxes) So as you see it is not all that simple).
Scott Lloyd Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 So yeah, tithing is paid on your "interest/surplus/all you possess/increase". That's not confusing at all...If you're confused, go by the First Presidency's direction. Shall I quote it again?
sdc999 Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 If you're confused, go by the First Presidency's direction. Shall I quote it again?With so many confused and not agreeing, it is evident that the first presidency is doing a very poor job of making themselves clear. I run a business, Monson runs a business. Different scales of course but I can assure you that my guys NEVER come to me and say, 'what does he really mean when he says....' If the first presidency had the courage to be clear, they would use the terms; either gross or net to be crystal clear. This leads me to believe that the first presidency would actually believe 'net' but allows for the interpretation of gross as it make a HUGE difference in revenue stream for the church.
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 If you're confused, go by the First Presidency's direction. Shall I quote it again? I'm not confused. I pay my tithing on my increase - any income that actually comes into my hand that I actually receive to pay tithing on. If I don't receive the money, I don't tithe it. I don't tithe imaginary theoretical funds. They provide me no increase/surplus/or interest. And as I've said many times, the First Presidency and I disagree on many points of doctrine.
sdc999 Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 I'm not confused. I pay my tithing on my increase - any income that actually comes into my hand that I actually receive to pay tithing on. If I don't receive the money, I don't tithe it. I don't tithe imaginary theoretical funds. They provide me no increase/surplus/or interest. And as I've said many times, the First Presidency and I disagree on many points of doctrine.As I just previously stated, I don't think you and the first presidency disagree on this. They just willingly allow members to misinterpret for financial gain. Do not come to a Mormon board and demean leaders.
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 It is amazing how much time we spend debating whether/how we should live the lowest temporal laws (tithing, word of wisdom, etc). You'd think considering we have the Melchezidek priesthood and all the keys are on the earth that we would be working on some slightly loftier principles... But no, it's more fun to argue whether herbal tea is a sin or whether to pay tithing on a tax refund, or whether God wants us to wear white shirts to Church or take the sacrament with the right hand (if able). God must seriously roll his eyes at us most of the time and wonder if we will ever move to even a Terrestrial level. 2
ERayR Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 With so many confused and not agreeing, it is evident that the first presidency is doing a very poor job of making themselves clear. I run a business, Monson runs a business. Different scales of course but I can assure you that my guys NEVER come to me and say, 'what does he really mean when he says....' If the first presidency had the courage to be clear, they would use the terms; either gross or net to be crystal clear. This leads me to believe that the first presidency would actually believe 'net' but allows for the interpretation of gross as it make a HUGE difference in revenue stream for the church. Gross or net are not as clear as you think Does gross mean before depreciation and other non-cash deductions or after? Is net before or after interest and taxes. Just a couple of problems with your clarity. I think the bretheren are about as clear as they can be. It is up to the individual to decide hoe generously they want to interpret it. 1
sdc999 Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 Gross or net are not as clear as you think Does gross mean before depreciation and other non-cash deductions or after? Is net before or after interest and taxes. Just a couple of problems with your clarity. I think the bretheren are about as clear as they can be. It is up to the individual to decide hoe generously they want to interpret it.ERayR, I cannot begin to tell you how thankful I am that you are not my accountant.
ERayR Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 ERayR, I cannot begin to tell you how thankful I am that you are not my accountant. And I am totally grateful that you are not my client.
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