Myth And False Traditions In The Church

[rockpond]

As was explained earlier, a draining font makes noise and can disrupt the reverent atmosphere for the remaining parts of the service.  It has nothing to do with any sort of misinterpretation, but for a very practical reason.

 

Ah yes, I remember the very first time I conducted a baptismal service as a new bishopric counselor.  I'll share this in the hope that someone will benefit by not making the same mistake...

 

After baptizing his child, as the father exited the font, I leaned in an asked him to pull the plug.  I knew we were the final baptismal service of the day and I was trying to save the stake high councilor the hassle of doing it.  We closed the font doors, waited for them to change clothes, and then proceeded with the service.  If memory serves, it was sometime during the talk on the Holy Ghost that the water had reached a low enough level that it began to make a horribly loud slurping/whistling noise as it finished draining.  It went on for a couple of minutes.

 

So, please, please wait until AFTER the service to drain the font.  But don't forget to do it!  Fonts are still deep/big enough that a child could drown if they are left full.

[Buckeye]

Ah the wonders of personal interpretation:

 

Facilities Management Guidelines for Meetinghouses and Other Church Property

 

Font

When ... not in use, ... must remain closed and locked. ... drained and cleaned immediately after each baptismal service.

 

My ward's font is in the primary wing. Sometimes missionaries want to hold convert baptisms right after the block, meaning they will need to fill the font during the third hour. Our ward council (mostly led by the Primary) has discussed this several times. The concern is no so much noise, but safety for children. So we require at least one missionary to be present at the font the entire time is has any water in it, and we require the door to be locked except when people enter for the baptism itself. In my experience, this policy has been one of the better ways in which we (the ward council) has truly counseled together to meet the needs of the ward.

[tonie]

So much to do about nothing.  To cook pancakes, eggs and sausage you do not even need the kitchen.  Just set up a few electric griddles on tables and have at it.

 

21.2.11 Serving Areas

The serving area in Church meetinghouses is not intended for food preparation or cooking unless it is part of a lesson, demonstration, or other instruction. When food is to be served in the building or on the grounds, it should be prepared elsewhere and brought to the meetinghouse, where it may be kept warm or cold until it is served.

 

 

 

I was in a ward that held a pancake breakfast, and we were required to cook the pancakes at home and bring them to the Church.

Edited February 23, 2015 by tonie

[tonie]

As was explained earlier, a draining font makes noise and can disrupt the reverent atmosphere for the remaining parts of the service.  It has nothing to do with any sort of misinterpretation, but for a very practical reason.

 

As explained earlier, personal intrepertation are wonderous things.  You have your reason, I have mine, the Church has their own. Each is reasonable, and I believe each fulfills the requirement from the Handbook.

[ksfisher]

Ah yes, I remember the very first time I conducted a baptismal service as a new bishopric counselor.  I'll share this in the hope that someone will benefit by not making the same mistake...

 

After baptizing his child, as the father exited the font, I leaned in an asked him to pull the plug.  I knew we were the final baptismal service of the day and I was trying to save the stake high councilor the hassle of doing it.  We closed the font doors, waited for them to change clothes, and then proceeded with the service.  If memory serves, it was sometime during the talk on the Holy Ghost that the water had reached a low enough level that it began to make a horribly loud slurping/whistling noise as it finished draining.  It went on for a couple of minutes.

 

So, please, please wait until AFTER the service to drain the font.  But don't forget to do it!  Fonts are still deep/big enough that a child could drown if they are left full.

 

Individual fonts will vary.  Ours is fine as long as the doors are closed. 

 

One thing I have learned is that the door into the font needs to be closed during the service as ours passes through a restroom.  We had one occasion where a baptismal candidate stopped to use the facilities before entering the font.  Everyone in the audience, which was being very reverent, knew exactly what was going on.

[tonie]

My ward's font is in the primary wing. Sometimes missionaries want to hold convert baptisms right after the block, meaning they will need to fill the font during the third hour. Our ward council (mostly led by the Primary) has discussed this several times. The concern is no so much noise, but safety for children. So we require at least one missionary to be present at the font the entire time is has any water in it, and we require the door to be locked except when people enter for the baptism itself. In my experience, this policy has been one of the better ways in which we (the ward council) has truly counseled together to meet the needs of the ward.

 

As for noise reduction, something I saw missionaries do, was tie a small towel or cloth to the facet (around the nozel where the water comes out) of the font which touches the "floor" of the font. This greatly reduces the noise, as the water flows down the towel and does not splash.

Edited February 23, 2015 by tonie

[ksfisher]

As explained earlier, personal intrepertation are wonderous things.  You have your reason, I have mine, the Church has their own. Each is reasonable, and I believe each fulfills the requirement from the Handbook.

 

The point being that the portion of the handbook you've quoted deals with the font when not in use.  It should be shut and locked to prevent injury.  The reasons, on the other hand, for shutting the doors to the font immediately after the baptism, while the font is draining, have more to do with reverence.  

 

Understanding the reasons behind church policy helps us apply the handbook in a reasonable, logical, consistent, kind and merciful manner.

[tonie]

The point being that the portion of the handbook you've quoted deals with the font when not in use.  It should be shut and locked to prevent injury.  The reasons, on the other hand, for shutting the doors to the font immediately after the baptism, while the font is draining, have more to do with reverence.  

 

Understanding the reasons behind church policy helps us apply the handbook in a reasonable, logical, consistent, kind and merciful manner.

 

As I stated, you have your reasons. 

 

The Handbook does not mention "reverence".

 

And how do you know, given the requirement for a "responsible adult", isn't about safety or liabilities?

Why require the adult be "responsible", if the draining is about reverence? 

Why require the continual presence of a "responsible" adult, if the draining is about reverence?

Why require the font to be "immediately" drained and cleaned if it is about reverence?

 

 

The Handbook states "when not in use":

 

 

When the baptismal font is not in use, all access doors to the font must remain closed and locked. The font should be drained and cleaned immediately after each baptismal service. A responsible adult should be present while the font is filling and remain until it is empty and secured.

 

 

After the baptized person and the officiator, have exited the font, the font "is not in use".

 

 

 

 

What we can see from this discussion, is that personal reasons encroach upon the Church instructions.

Edited February 23, 2015 by tonie

[tonie]

Some of the things listed in this discussion, appear to less "myth" and more a personal interpertation of the Instructions provided by the Church. 

 

 

 

It would appear to be a "myth" that cooking on personal electric griddles is permitted in or on Church meetinghouse grounds.

[Scott Lloyd]

Obvious indeed, which was obviously ignored with the "This can't be right" statement.

I was reacting to this statement:

 

no photography in the chapel even outside sacrament meeting.  This was in the handbook last I knew

 

This allowed for no exceptions, which there quite clearly are.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

Individual fonts will vary.  Ours is fine as long as the doors are closed. 

 

One thing I have learned is that the door into the font needs to be closed during the service as ours passes through a restroom.  We had one occasion where a baptismal candidate stopped to use the facilities before entering the font.  Everyone in the audience, which was being very reverent, knew exactly what was going on.

 

Funny (in hindsight, obviously).  

[ERayR]

 

 

21.2.11 Serving Areas

The serving area in Church meetinghouses is not intended for food preparation or cooking unless it is part of a lesson, demonstration, or other instruction. When food is to be served in the building or on the grounds, it should be prepared elsewhere and brought to the meetinghouse, where it may be kept warm or cold until it is served.

 

 

 

I was in a ward that held a pancake breakfast, and we were required to cook the pancakes at home and bring them to the Church.

 

 

The bishops of the wards I have lived in took the operative word to be should and did not interpret it as must.  They seemed to think fresh pancakes and scrambled eggs were important.  Same goes for father son outings in my part of Zion.

[ERayR]

 

 

21.2.11 Serving Areas

The serving area in Church meetinghouses is not intended for food preparation or cooking unless it is part of a lesson, demonstration, or other instruction. When food is to be served in the building or on the grounds, it should be prepared elsewhere and brought to the meetinghouse, where it may be kept warm or cold until it is served.

 

 

 

I was in a ward that held a pancake breakfast, and we were required to cook the pancakes at home and bring them to the Church.

 

Sorry about the cold pancakes and eggs. 

[ERayR]

Some of the things listed in this discussion, appear to less "myth" and more a personal interpertation of the Instructions provided by the Church. 

 

 

 

It would appear to be a "myth" that cooking on personal electric griddles is permitted in or on Church meetinghouse grounds.

 

If you mean by "myth" it is a report based on truth then I would agree.  That there are some who don't know the difference between must and should is sad..

[Grudunza]

I reiterate that how you personally tithe is your affair.

 

I'm just questioning your rationale about the money you spend for taxes being exempt because it is "a cost of doing business." Carried to its logical extreme, that could apply to anything you spend money on for which you receive value in return: groceries, clothing, rent, transportation, education, etc. You would end up paying tithing only on what was left over each month (or week, or year, or pay period) after you had met all your expenses and bought everything you needed or desired.

 

As an aside, I understand that is precisely what DBMormon does; moreover he wants the Church not only bless his scheme but to make explicit to everyone else that they can do that to. This seems misguided to me, but I also allow that how he manages his tithing is his own affair.

 

Personally, I have always applied my mom's advice . She said repeatedly that I can never get the Lord in my debt. So, if I err at all, I err on the side of paying too much.

 

Not to discount the wisdom of your mom, or your choice to interpret tithing how you feel is best, but the scriptures warn against incurring and not repaying debt to people, and about being responsible to our family needs.  When we pay tithing on gross, without accounting for personal expenses which can vary widely among families, that is weighing differently on different circumstances, putting a greater burden on the poor, and running more of a risk of people going into debt to satisfy that.  Paying tithing after expenses are accounted for is the most balanced method (assuming people are honest about what their necessary expenses are) and allows the poor a chance to actually save money from what's left, buy food storage and such, put money into college funds, and give more charitable contributions (which the scriptures also repeatedly encourage).  To pay tithing on more than what we have need (JST Gen. 14:39) comports the best to a fair God and to the scriptures, IMO.   

 

As an example of false tradition: "do you want gross blessings or net blessings?" 

Has the rated R thing really not been mentioned yet, or did I miss it?  That would be a big one. 

Also, taking the Lord's name in vain meaning expressions like "OMG."  I agree that it can include that in the sense that many can overuse that phrase and others like it, but depends on the use as to whether it's really in "vain."  If we are really thinking of God or asking for His help in a moment while expressing that phrase, then I don't believe it's in vain.  And my understanding is that "in vain" is meant more for using His name in connection with a purpose that is false or without sanction from Him.

[tonie]

Sorry about the cold pancakes and eggs. 

 

Why would anything be cold? As the handbook instructs, the facilities may be used for warming of food, not cooking. So we brought our food from home, as instructed by the handbook, and used the applances in the kitchen facilities to keep it warm till serving time.

[ERayR]

Why would anything be cold? As the handbook instructs, the facilities may be used for warming of food, not cooking. So we brought our food from home, as instructed by the handbook, and used the applances in the kitchen facilities to keep it warm till serving time.

 

If there is anything worse than cold pancakes and cold eggs it is warmed over pancakes and eggs. 

[tonie]

I was reacting to this statement:

 

This allowed for no exceptions, of which there quite clearly are.

 

The Handbook does not provide an except either.

 

21.2.10 Photographs, Video Recordings, and Broadcasts in Chapels

Taking photographs or making video recordings in chapels is not permitted.

 

 

However, one should hardly expect a 1st Presidency pronouncement for a General Authority (a representative of the Church), to request and permit a employee of DeseretNews (A company owned by the LDS Church), to take pictures.

[tonie]

If there is anything worse than cold pancakes and cold eggs it is warmed over pancakes and eggs. 

 

Then it is a tremendous blessing you were not there to be the party pooper amongst everyone who had a great time.

 

 

And again, what this discussion is showing, is that what some are calling "myth" are not necessarily myths. What some think are myths, are actually the good faith application of Church guidelines. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by tonie

[ERayR]

Not to discount the wisdom of your mom, or your choice to interpret tithing how you feel is best, but the scriptures warn against incurring and not repaying debt to people, and about being responsible to our family needs.  When we pay tithing on gross, without accounting for personal expenses which can vary widely among families, that is weighing differently on different circumstances, putting a greater burden on the poor, and running more of a risk of people going into debt to satisfy that.  Paying tithing after expenses are accounted for is the most balanced method (assuming people are honest about what their necessary expenses are) and allows the poor a chance to actually save money from what's left, buy food storage and such, put money into college funds, and give more charitable contributions (which the scriptures also repeatedly encourage).  To pay tithing on more than what we have need (JST Gen. 14:39) comports the best to a fair God and to the scriptures, IMO.   

 

As an example of false tradition: "do you want gross blessings or net blessings?" 

Has the rated R thing really not been mentioned yet, or did I miss it?  That would be a big one. 

Also, taking the Lord's name in vain meaning expressions like "OMG."  I agree that it can include that in the sense that many can overuse that phrase and others like it, but depends on the use as to whether it's really in "vain."  If we are really thinking of God or asking for His help in a moment while expressing that phrase, then I don't believe it's in vain.  And my understanding is that "in vain" is meant more for using His name in connection with a purpose that is false or without sanction from Him.

 

What ever you are comfortable with. 

 

Malachi 3:8-18King James Version (KJV)

⁸ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

[KevinG]

Has the rated R thing really not been mentioned yet, or did I miss it?  That would be a big one. 

 

Not on this thread to my knowledge.  But we've killed that topic as well as two piece bathing suits before.

 

[ERayR]

Then it is a tremendous blessing you were not there to be the party pooper amongst everyone who had a great time.

 

Yep that is me.  A dash of cold water in the face.  Sorry it is just my happy temperament.

[KevinG]

Yep that is me.  A dash of cold water in the face.  Sorry it is just my happy temperament.

 

Eat a warm pancake.  You're not yourself when you're hungry.

Edited February 23, 2015 by KevinG

[Grudunza]

What ever you are comfortable with.

Malachi 3:8-18King James Version (KJV)

⁸ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Who is that addressed to? The general tithe payers, or the spiritual leaders misusing those tithes?

Edited February 23, 2015 by Grudunza

[ERayR]

Who is that addressed to?

 

 

Nobody in particular.  Just something to remember when you are calculating tithing.