JLHPROF Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2139857-155/and-it-came-to-pass-one According to this article since President Benson's administration the saints as a whole switched from quoting the Bible more to quoting the Book of Mormon more. Despite Joseph Smith's statement that we will get closer to God by abiding the BOM precepts than any other book, he himself preferred to quote the Bible, rarely quoting the BOM in his discourses.This pattern continued through the 19th and most of the 20th century. Pres. Benson as we know really pushed members to read the BOM. I thought this would be an interesting discussion point because personally, I feel like I quote the Bible and the Doctrine and Covenants far more often than the Book of Mormon. Also, because I have noticed the change, the fewer quotes from the Bible and D&C in general conference and meetings.Even on this board, Church members (not all, but many) are far more likely to quote BOM scripture than D&C or Bible. I don't think this is either good or bad, but what do people think about this. Do you try to find a BOM quote FIRST or have you just studied the BOM more than the others? I almost always end up going to the NT or D&C because I have studied these more. What have you observed?
bluebell Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 I don't have a preference. I just look stuff up in the scriptures and find what i find, wherever i find it. If i'm talking to non members then i'll typically quote the bible, unless the subject has to do with what mormons believe and then i will quote the BOM.
thesometimesaint Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 For me its a complex issue. When talking to members I feel free to use any of our Scriptures. When talking with nonmembers I find it easier to use the Bible as a point of commonality. 1
Uncle Dale Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 If the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the restored gospel,then the choice should be a simple one. Consult that volume foran explanation of why infant baptism is wrong; or for the properway to administer the sacrament; or for a fulfillment of the blessings reportedly bestowed upon Ephraim. For more mundane topics, such as the genealogy of King David,or whether or not it is sinful to weave flax and wool together, aquick glance into the Bible should supply an answer. On the other hand, if the Nephite Record is not the fulness of thegospel, and does not necessarily preserve many of the plain andprecious doctrines altered (or removed) from the biblical text --then the whole issue becomes a much more complex matter. I tend to favor the "does not necessarily preserve..." conclusion. UD
cinepro Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2139857-155/and-it-came-to-pass-one According to this article since President Benson's administration the saints as a whole switched from quoting the Bible more to quoting the Book of Mormon more. Despite Joseph Smith's statement that we will get closer to God by abiding the BOM precepts than any other book, he himself preferred to quote the Bible, rarely quoting the BOM in his discourses.This pattern continued through the 19th and most of the 20th century. Pres. Benson as we know really pushed members to read the BOM. I thought this would be an interesting discussion point because personally, I feel like I quote the Bible and the Doctrine and Covenants far more often than the Book of Mormon. Also, because I have noticed the change, the fewer quotes from the Bible and D&C in general conference and meetings.Even on this board, Church members (not all, but many) are far more likely to quote BOM scripture than D&C or Bible. I don't think this is either good or bad, but what do people think about this. Do you try to find a BOM quote FIRST or have you just studied the BOM more than the others? I almost always end up going to the NT or D&C because I have studied these more. What have you observed? If you're really interested, the data is here: BYU Scripture Citation Index 1
carbon dioxide Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) I don't pick one over the other. The Bible is better at explaining Jesus mortal ministry. The Book of Mormon is better at explaining basic doctrines like baptism. The Doctrine and Covenants is better at explaining the function of the priesthood and other topics not clearly defined in the Bible or Book of Mormon. Pearl of Great price is better at explaining the fall of Adam and what he did after he left the garden and it has a lot more on Enoch. I pick the source that best covers the topic I am looking at. Edited February 15, 2015 by carbon dioxide 2
Avatar4321 Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 I quote what needs to be quoted.but if you want the basics of the gospel use the Book of Mormon. It's also a tremendous missionary tool.
JLHPROF Posted February 15, 2015 Author Posted February 15, 2015 If you're really interested, the data is here: BYU Scripture Citation Index Thank you, very useful. 1830-today it's clear that the BOM is not the most quoted. The article refers to the change from the 1980's onward. I'm not sure that site allows for date limitation.It's the change that I find interesting, especially since we were discussing D&C 84:57 in Church today. 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—Perhaps we have progressed...
Robert F. Smith Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 If you're really interested, the data is here: BYU Scripture Citation IndexThanks for that excellent resource, but can one generate the kinds of numerical data on scripture citation from that which we are discussing here? Just looking it over, it does not appear that that would be easy.
cinepro Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 Thanks for that excellent resource, but can one generate the kinds of numerical data on scripture citation from that which we are discussing here? Just looking it over, it does not appear that that would be easy. I never said it would be easy. Only that it would be worth it.
cinepro Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 FYI, if you limit the scope using the "Options and Filters" button above the left hand column (looks like a gear), here is how it looks for these time periods: 1955 - 1985OT - 2945NT - 8506BoM - 3038D&C - 5055PoGP - 1427 1985 - 2015OT - 2744NT - 7321BoM - 8160D&C - 6256PoGP - 1414 2
pogi Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) 1955 - 1985OT - 2945NT - 8506BoM - 3038D&C - 5055PoGP - 1427 1985 - 2015OT - 2744NT - 7321BoM - 8160D&C - 6256PoGP - 1414 With just minutes to go, the BoM TAKES THE LEAD!!! WHAT A TURN AROUND! Benson in clear running for MVP. Edited February 16, 2015 by pogi 2
bluebell Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 FYI, if you limit the scope using the "Options and Filters" button above the left hand column (looks like a gear), here is how it looks for these time periods: 1955 - 1985OT - 2945NT - 8506BoM - 3038D&C - 5055PoGP - 1427 1985 - 2015OT - 2744NT - 7321BoM - 8160D&C - 6256PoGP - 1414 It's interesting to see that not only do we tend to quote the BOM more, but we also quote scripture more now in general than we did in the past.
carbon dioxide Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 Given the fact that LDS have four standard works, it is impossible to use all of them equally and in the same amount. Just because a parent might spend a little more time with one of their children than the others does not mean the parent loves that one child more. There may be very good reasons why the parent does that while loving each of their kids equally.
Alan Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) I was dismayed to recently discover that the missionaries here don't carry a Bible with them, don't quote from the Bible, and don't use the Bible at all when teaching.This is a very bad thing in my view.Although the Book of Mormon is great etc, the Bible is just breathtaking in my view. When I start reading the gospels I just can't put the book down! Edited February 16, 2015 by Alan
telnetd Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 I was dismayed to recently discover that the missionaries here don't carry a Bible with them, don't quote from the Bible, and don't use the Bible at all what teaching.This is a very bad thing in my view.Although the Book of Mormon is great etc, the Bible is just breathtaking in my view. When I start reading the gospels I just can't put the book down! The missionaries I have seen all carry the quad. They need to because some of theirdiscussions lack scriptural support from the Book of Mormon. Gail 2
bluebell Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 I was dismayed to recently discover that the missionaries here don't carry a Bible with them, don't quote from the Bible, and don't use the Bible at all what teaching.This is a very bad thing in my view.Although the Book of Mormon is great etc, the Bible is just breathtaking in my view. When I start reading the gospels I just can't put the book down! I echo what telnetd said. It's weird that they wouldn't carry or teach from the Bible since the lessons they are supposed to teach from specifically include biblical references-sometimes those are the only scriptural references provided. 2
Calm Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) I was dismayed to recently discover that the missionaries here don't carry a Bible with them, don't quote from the Bible, and don't use the Bible at all what teaching.This is a very bad thing in my view.Although the Book of Mormon is great etc, the Bible is just breathtaking in my view. When I start reading the gospels I just can't put the book down!Are you certain about this? If it is so, and not just someone relaying faulty information to you, could you please find out why. It is certainly not a church wide practice.Preach My Gospel discussion include biblical scriptures. If a zone leader or mission president is restricting use in teaching, that seems like going against instruction.Plus many missionaries have quads so if they are carrying their own scriptures they have to include the Bible, so I don't think there could be an outright ban on carrying it around.I can see not carrying scriptures around at all and just using iPads instead. Would save a lot of weight, but would hardly prevent accessing the Bible along with others. Could also see just carrying around Book of Mormons in order to give those away, though nowadays I've heard that they often need to give Bibles as well as it is not always in the home as it used to be, even if unread.Perhaps someone misunderstood the above situation and extrapolated not using it at all? Edited February 16, 2015 by calmoriah
cinepro Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Are you certain about this? If it is so, and not just someone relaying faulty information to you, could you please find out why. It is certainly not a church wide practice. This may have something to do with it. It's from a talk by Joseph Fielding McConkie in the 2005 Joseph Smith Symposium As a mission president I discovered that the way we present our message has a good deal to do with who accepts it and how deeply their roots are anchored in the soil of the gospel. On this matter, some things are obvious. For instance, it is no great surprise that shallow missionaries get shallow converts. In like manner, the more direct we are, the more successful we are. There is no reason that missionaries cannot ask everyone they meet if they would like to be baptized. What came as a surprise to me, however, was that nothing chased the dark spirit of contention away as effectively as the declaration of those very texts that seemed the most contentious. Let me share an experience. During a round of zone conferences, I challenged the missionaries to proselytize for one month without taking their Bibles with them. This meant that they had to do all of their teaching from the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants. I told them that any principle that they could not teach from those sources they had no business teaching because it was not a part of the message that the Lord had commissioned us to take to the ends of the earth. It seemed a reasonable assumption to us that if the gospel had indeed been restored and we in reality represented a new gospel dispensation, then we could teach the message as the Lord had given it to us. Between then and our next round of zone conferences, the reports flooded in. The missionaries spoke of a stronger spirit in their meetings, even to the point of being overwhelming. It was obvious that the Holy Ghost liked being a part of what they were doing. Their confidence increased when they knew they were standing on their own ground. Naturally, they found more people to teach than they ever had before. These things I expected, but I did not expect the report that the spirit of contention, common to many efforts to teach, was now gone. After our one-month experiment, our missionaries refused to return to their old methods. Their faith was centered in the revelations of the Restoration. They liked the spirit of the whole thing. The missionaries conceded that they did not necessarily know any more about the Bible than did those they taught. There was no reason to argue over the meaning of Bible passages, which was not their message. Their message was that God had spoken through a living prophet, and they stuck to that message. When those they were teaching understood this, they asked questions about what God had told the Prophet about this or that, and with every question came the opportunity to open the revelations of the Restoration and let their light shine. That light carries its own spirit. One can accept it or reject it, but one cannot argue with it. Imagine arguing with Moses about whether the Lord gave him the Ten Commandments. Surely someone must have said, “Moses, I do not think you got the Ten Commandments from God; I think Aaron wrote them.” Someone else must have said that Moses was just quoting from a book that was really written by Miriam. And what would Moses say to all of this? “I got them from God; if you question that, I suggest that you ask Him about it.” That’s our message: ask God. The way we answer questions about our faith ought to be by finding the quickest and most direct route to the Sacred Grove. The heavens are open, class is in session, and it is time to ask questions. God gives answers, and if we do not get the answer from Him, we are not going to do very well on the test. The Restoration began with Joseph Smith on his knees in the Sacred Grove, and that is where the testimony of all Latter-day Saints must begin, on their knees in a sacred moment, asking of God. Everything that we believe as Latter-day Saints rests on the reality of what God said that spring morning to Joseph Smith. The great irony of it all is that the harder the saying, the more offensive it seems to the world and the more peace it actually brings. It is the very light that chases away the darkness of contention with all that are honest in heart. The First Vision and Religious Tolerance (emphasis added) Edited February 16, 2015 by cinepro 1
JLHPROF Posted February 16, 2015 Author Posted February 16, 2015 FYI, if you limit the scope using the "Options and Filters" button above the left hand column (looks like a gear), here is how it looks for these time periods: 1955 - 1985OT - 2945NT - 8506BoM - 3038D&C - 5055PoGP - 1427 1985 - 2015OT - 2744NT - 7321BoM - 8160D&C - 6256PoGP - 1414 Well that definitely confirms the article. The switch to the BOM is significant. I still find the D&C most quoted by me, but then I'm not on a mission.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 It's interesting to see that not only do we tend to quote the BOM more, but we also quote scripture more now in general than we did in the past.Yeh, but the NT took a hit.
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 If you go to http://byu-professor.tumblr.com you will find out why most Mormons do not like quoting from the Book of Mormon
Uncle Dale Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) If you go to http://byu-professor.tumblr.com you will find out why most Mormons do not like quoting from the Book of Mormon Well then, the very first point there addressed has to do with Mormonsand the Trinity of mainstream Christianity. The Book of Mormon, in several places, uses triune phraseology -- thoughMormons from the 1830s forward have typically interpreted it as referring to three divine personages, rather than reflecting mainstream Christiantrinitarianism (a single God comprised of three distinct persons). Does that mean Mormons have strayed from the teachings of the originalBook of Mormon? Or, does it mean that their explanations for that sort oflanguage are inadequate, to explain differences in language and belief? I'm not sure what the point being made here might be. Certainly it is not anew topic, never before pondered by Latter Day Saints. But, would some Mormons naturally pass over the book's Father-Son-Spiritvocabulary, and focus instead upon other "first principles," when conversingwith people unfamiliar with the text? If that is the point somebody wishes to belabor, there may be an element oftruth in it. But -- so what? Don't most of us naturally concentrate on subjectswe can easily articulate, when conversing with "outsiders." Not that I am here trying to defend the book nor the LDS Church, pleaseunderstand * -- but I find the topic interesting and am always curious tohear others attempt to inject mainstream Christian trinitarianism into the book. UD ------------* I myself come from a religious heritage sometimes described as occupying a middle ground between Mormonism and Protestantism. Edited February 17, 2015 by Uncle Dale 1
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 The biggest difference between main stream Christianity and the Mormon faith is that Mormons teach three distinct persons and three distinct gods, while main stream Christianity go along with 2 Nephi 31:21, Alma 11:44, Mormon 7:7 and Mark 12:28-29 and say three distinct persons but only ONE GOD. 1X1X1 = 1 God is Christianity 1+1+1 = 3 gods is Mormonism
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