Is There A 4Th Kingdom Inbetween The Telestial And Outer Darkness?

[djones]

I was reading in Visions of Glory and came across the following paragraph which piqued my curiosity….

 

“All of the glorified universes I perceived were one of three glories—Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial. There were other types, which were not types of glory. These were wonderful places without glory where beings who had not qualified for a reward of glory during their lifetimes were ultimately sent. These were of every type, of every description, and were created in response to their desires. They wanted nothing more to do with God or His intervention in their lives, so He gave them what they wanted—whatever it was—and there they would stay throughout eternity, unable to challenge God’s authority ever again.”

 

 

DISCLAIMER: I don’t believe in everything that VOG says. I think it’s a fascinating book and I believe it contains a lot of truths but I also think there are a lot of hokey things and that “Spencer” may have been deceived.

 

 

With that being said though, the above passage seems to line up with scripture. When reading in D&C 76 the description of “outer darkness” or where the sons of perdition live seems like an awful, horrible place. (See D&C 76: 32-38 and 43-48) However D&C 88 makes it seem like there other kingdoms that are not kingdoms of glory where people are “enjoying” their lives to the extent that they are willing to. (See D&C 88: 29-33) It seems to me that there very well may be a 4^th Kingdom that is not a kingdom of glory but is a nice place to live that some of the sons and daughters of God will end up in eternity. Maybe it’s the place that people go who want no responsibility for anything and just want to play golf and sit on the beach every day? LOL.

[Calm]

"I24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."

So there is at least one kingdom of non glory, but this may simply be OD.

Is Outer Darkness defined as a kingdom or not?

If so, it may have levels in it like the CK varying from those living as described in verse 33 iirc down to those who experience their existence as a burning lake of fire....though elsewhere the lake is assigned to prejudgment time.

I need to a bit of reading.

Edited December 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Institute manual says those who remain are the sons of perdition. Sec 88

In the Sec 76 lesson...

This may be poetic or he may have meant perdition (the kingdom) has many areas: "In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness, where there is no light, Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent.” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 125.)"

"The term second death as used here refers to the spiritual death that will come upon those sons of perdition who have been resurrected. Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote: “Spiritual death is to be cast out of the presence of the Lord, to die as to the things of righteousness, to die as to the things of the Spirit. Spirit beings as such never die in the sense of annihilation or in the sense that their spirit bodies are disorganized; rather, they continue to live to all eternity either as spirits or as resurrected personages. …

“Eventually, all are redeemed from spiritual death except those who have ‘sinned unto death’ (D. & C. 64:7), that is, those who are destined to be sons of perdition. John teaches this by saying that after death and hell have delivered up the dead which are in them, then death and hell shall be ‘cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.’ (Rev. 20:12–15.) And thus the Lord said in our day that the sons of perdition are ‘the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power’ (D. & C. 76:37), meaning any power after the resurrection.” (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 757–58; see also Notes and Commentary on D&C 63:17; 64:7.)"

"D&C 76:44–49. It Is Futile to Discuss the Fate of Sons of Perdition

It appears that in the early days of the Restoration some attempted to teach the destiny of the sons of perdition. The Prophet Joseph Smith responded by writing: “Say to the brothers Hulet and to all others, that the Lord never authorized them to say that the devil, his angels, or the sons of perdition, should ever be restored; for their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed, save to those who are made partakers thereof: consequently those who teach this doctrine have not received it of the Spirit of the Lord. Truly Brother Oliver declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We, therefore, command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion. We sanction the decision of the Bishop and his council, in relation to this doctrine being a bar to communion.” (Teachings, p. 24.)

D&C 76:44. How Can the Sons of Perdition “Reign” in Eternity?

Smith and Sjodahl explained: “The Lord is the sovereign ruler. He reigns. Sin is said to reign, when men submit to its behests. Grace is also said to reign (Rom. 5:21). The Saints will reign with Christ. But here the sons of Perdition are said to ‘reign’ with the Devil and his angels in eternity, in the place where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. The conflict between Lucifer and the Son has been, from the beginning, for sovereignty. Men have ranged themselves on one side or the other. The Saints are, and will be, citizens and officials in the Kingdom of God and there they will ‘reign’, as citizens in a free country. The sons of Perdition are, and will remain, citizens and officials in the kingdom of Lucifer. But that kingdom will, finally, be confined to Gehenna. There they will ‘reign’, under such laws and rules as obtain in the kingdom of the Devil, and of which we have had numerous illustrations in human history, during the dark ages of ignorance, superstition, tyranny, and iniquity. Think of a place where the evil passions of human beings and evil spirits rage, unrestrained by the influence of the gospel! Such is the kingdom of the Devil, where the sons of Perdition will reign.” (Commentary, pp. 454–55.)

D&C 76:48. Are the Sons of Perdition “Ordained” to Be Such?

“Not foreordained, in the sense of pre-elected by God, to condemnation. God has ordained that rebellion against Him shall result, if persisted in to the end, in misery, but He has not foreordained anyone to that fate. A legislature may ordain that thieves must be imprisoned and murderers killed, but that does not mean that it has foreordained any individual, or any number of individuals, to do that which ends in imprisonment, or death. The sons of Perdition pursue their course according to their own choice, and not as victims of inexorable destiny.” (Smith and Sjodahl, Commentary, p. 455.)"

Edited December 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[Guest]

Or maybe a kingdom between the same thread posted twice.

[Calm]

Collection of teachings on sons of perdition (apparently any without glory fall into this category):

http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quotes/Sons%20of%20Perdition.htm

[The Nehor]

I was reading in Visions of Glory...

I think it’s a fascinating book and I believe it contains a lot of truths...

I found your two key problems.

[JLHPROF]

 

I was reading in Visions of Glory and came across the following paragraph which piqued my curiosity….

 

“All of the glorified universes I perceived were one of three glories—Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial. There were other types, which were not types of glory. These were wonderful places without glory where beings who had not qualified for a reward of glory during their lifetimes were ultimately sent. These were of every type, of every description, and were created in response to their desires. They wanted nothing more to do with God or His intervention in their lives, so He gave them what they wanted—whatever it was—and there they would stay throughout eternity, unable to challenge God’s authority ever again.”

 

 

DISCLAIMER: I don’t believe in everything that VOG says. I think it’s a fascinating book and I believe it contains a lot of truths but I also think there are a lot of hokey things and that “Spencer” may have been deceived.

 

 

With that being said though, the above passage seems to line up with scripture. When reading in D&C 76 the description of “outer darkness” or where the sons of perdition live seems like an awful, horrible place. (See D&C 76: 32-38 and 43-48) However D&C 88 makes it seem like there other kingdoms that are not kingdoms of glory where people are “enjoying” their lives to the extent that they are willing to. (See D&C 88: 29-33) It seems to me that there very well may be a 4^th Kingdom that is not a kingdom of glory but is a nice place to live that some of the sons and daughters of God will end up in eternity. Maybe it’s the place that people go who want no responsibility for anything and just want to play golf and sit on the beach every day? LOL.

 

 

I think there are more kingdoms than we realize, sure.  That being said, I also think that the Kingdoms are not "rewards" or "punishments" where we get to hang out and be happy.   We are told that people will be heartbroken when they realize the glory that they miss out on.  The idea that any kingdom (outside of the top degree of the celestial) will bring 100% happiness is naive.  Even those who choose a lesser glory may be more comfortable, but there will still be the knowledge of missed blessings.

The idea that a kingdom lower than telestial where people have no responsiblity (yes, I get it was a joke) shows a fundamental ignoring of the progressive nature between the kingdoms.

 

And of course, I've NEVER believed or agreed that the Kingdom a resurrected being is placed in is their final location of progression forever without end.  (Sorry Elder McConkie).  It's just not a true doctrine in my opinion.

[Calm]

After reading everything, this would appear to be a false doctrine.

[JAHS]

I think there are more kingdoms than we realize, sure.  That being said, I also think that the Kingdoms are not "rewards" or "punishments" where we get to hang out and be happy.   We are told that people will be heartbroken when they realize the glory that they miss out on.  The idea that any kingdom (outside of the top degree of the celestial) will bring 100% happiness is naive.  Even those who choose a lesser glory may be more comfortable, but there will still be the knowledge of missed blessings.

The idea that a kingdom lower than telestial where people have no responsiblity (yes, I get it was a joke) shows a fundamental ignoring of the progressive nature between the kingdoms.

 

And of course, I've NEVER believed or agreed that the Kingdom a resurrected being is placed in is their final location of progression forever without end.  (Sorry Elder McConkie).  It's just not a true doctrine in my opinion.

 

Elder McConkie was not the only one who believed in no progression between kingdoms.

 

Melvin J. Ballard: "So far as the telestial group is concerned . . . 'Where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end' [D&C 76:112]. I take it upon the same basis, the same argument likewise applies to the terrestrial world." Melvin J. Ballard, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, comp. Bryant S. Hinckley (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1949),256.

 

Spencer W. Kimball: "After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, . . . he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. . . . That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right."  Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), 243-44.

 

Joseph Fielding Smith:

 It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?

The answer to this question is, No!

The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." (D&C 76: 112)

Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.

This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.

(Doctrines of Salvation)

 

John A Widtsoe:

"There is also a difference in possible achievement in the different glories. Granite cannot be carved with wooden tools. So it is in the glories of the hereafter. Those of the celestial kingdom have so lived as to achieve Godhood itself. Those of an inferior glory cannot reach that far. The deeds on earth become tools of achievement in the heavens." 

(Evidences and Reconciliations)

 

Speaking of the resurrection D& C says:

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. (D&C 88: 28-31)

 

It is at the resurrection that we obtain the body that corresponds to the glory we will be in. There may be progression within the kingdoms but not from one kingdom to the next. 

I know of no general authority or scripture that supports this. If it were possible people would procrastinate their repentance thinking they can still make it to the CK by going that route. Ain't so.

 

[Thinking]

The 4th kingdom is for all those who spent too much time on this board.

[Rob Osborn]

Interesting that in Christ's teachings he is always talking of just one kingdom where he saves his sheep. Visions of Glory is, in my opinion, not true.

[Calm]

 

It is at the resurrection that we obtain the body that corresponds to the glory we will be in. There may be progression within the kingdoms but not from one kingdom to the next. 

I know of no general authority or scripture that supports this. If it were possible people would procrastinate their repentance thinking they can still make it to the CK by going that route. Ain't so.

 

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Progression_between_kingdoms_of_glory

 

There is no official pronouncement on this question. Some leaders of the Church have, however, expressed deep skepticism about this idea.

[Rob Osborn]

In the temple we progress through the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms in order to be saved in the celestial.

[Stone holm]

I think there are more kingdoms than we realize, sure.  That being said, I also think that the Kingdoms are not "rewards" or "punishments" where we get to hang out and be happy.   We are told that people will be heartbroken when they realize the glory that they miss out on.  The idea that any kingdom (outside of the top degree of the celestial) will bring 100% happiness is naive.  Even those who choose a lesser glory may be more comfortable, but there will still be the knowledge of missed blessings.

The idea that a kingdom lower than telestial where people have no responsiblity (yes, I get it was a joke) shows a fundamental ignoring of the progressive nature between the kingdoms.

 

And of course, I've NEVER believed or agreed that the Kingdom a resurrected being is placed in is their final location of progression forever without end.  (Sorry Elder McConkie).  It's just not a true doctrine in my opinion.

I had always understood that at the final judgment we receive specific permanent types of bodies and those of a lower order cannot physically withstand the environment of the higher kingdoms

[JAHS]

In the temple we progress through the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms in order to be saved in the celestial.

I don't think that is mean to represent what actually happens in the plan of salvation. It's just a means of teaching which laws we are required to live by for each kingdom.

I agree there is no "official" position about this but it just makes sense to me that kingdom to kingdom progression can't be possible because we are told that "this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God;" (Alma 34: 32),  

and,

"for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed." (verse 33)

 

except of course for those who did not have the chance to hear and accept it on earth. They will hear it in the next life and be resurrected with a body according to the kingdom they will inherit. JMO

[blooit]

I don't think that is mean to represent what actually happens in the plan of salvation. It's just a means of teaching which laws we are required to live by for each kingdom.

I agree there is no "official" position about this but it just makes sense to me that kingdom to kingdom progression can't be possible because we are told that "this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God;" (Alma 34: 32),  

and,

"for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed." (verse 33)

 

except of course for those who did not have the chance to hear and accept it on earth. They will hear it in the next life and be resurrected with a body according to the kingdom they will inherit. JMO

 

What about the possibility that we do, in fact, progress through each state, but stop progressing when we have reached our limit.  Wouldn't this, then, be "damnation?"  In fact, isn't that what the millennium basically is - the "terrestrial time period?"

[canard78]

Elder McConkie was not the only one who believed in no progression between kingdoms.

-SNIP-

It is at the resurrection that we obtain the body that corresponds to the glory we will be in. There may be progression within the kingdoms but not from one kingdom to the next.

I know of no general authority or scripture that supports this. If it were possible people would procrastinate their repentance thinking they can still make it to the CK by going that route. Ain't so.

None? How about these:

"The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial” that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory”having before them the privilege also of eternal progress”have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance into the celestial kingdom... they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.”

B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.

---

"“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”

James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

More here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xQqZgS0YmZn5b1ePX_v3pVqM_qsP9D2q13tuoRwvJUM/edit

-----

“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.”

J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

-----

“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”

Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965

----

D&C 19:6-7 supports the idea of damnation not being "for ever." Anything but celestial would, eventually, be a form of damning.

Edited December 15, 2014 by canard78

[The Nehor]

Interesting that in Christ's teachings he is always talking of just one kingdom where he saves his sheep. Visions of Glory is, in my opinion, not true.

 

I don't usually agree with Rob.....but I agree with Rob.

 

I almost wish I had no moral standards. I could write a better book then this filled with LDS-derived visions and make them more plausible and make bank if I was not convinced it was predatory and likely to land me in hell. I find the book almost insulting. You expect me to believe this tripe? LDS as a people seem to have a thirst for this kind of rubbish. It is an even less plausible and convincing "Embraced by the Light". On top of that most of it is fueled by narcissism. Everything that happens in the book is about how it effects the narrator. People suffer so he can learn something. He gets visions because he is so great. You know, unlike scripture where the prophets sorrow for suffering and seek to alleviate it and when the visions of eternity open it is because they need that information and have a mission to fulfill to benefit others.

 

We have several apocalyptic visions in scripture to authentic prophets. Why waste time reading derivative drivel written by a spiritual amateur (at best) or spiritual incompetent (more likely)?

[VideoGameJunkie]

I really really hope I can still wind up in the Celestial Kingdom and be with Heavenly Father, Jesus, and my family for eternity. It's the true desire of my heart and I would trade any treasure in the universe for that.

Edited December 15, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie

[JAHS]

None? How about these:

"The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial” that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory”having before them the privilege also of eternal progress”have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance into the celestial kingdom... they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.”

B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.

---

"“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”

James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

More here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xQqZgS0YmZn5b1ePX_v3pVqM_qsP9D2q13tuoRwvJUM/edit

-----

“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.”

J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

-----

“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”

Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965

----

D&C 19:6-7 supports the idea of damnation not being "for ever." Anything but celestial would, eventually, be a form of damning.

Well there are obviously differences of opinion and I agree that there is no "official" position on the matter. All I can do is offer mine based on what I see in the scriptures.

People are damned if they do not reach their potential of obtaining the celestial kingdom, even though they are saved in some degree of glory. They are damned in the sense that they will not enjoy an eternal increase or the continuation of the family unit in eternity (D&C 132:4, 19).

What would be purpose of this life if it is not to prove ourselves worthy of the kingdom we are saved in? Should we just skip this life and go straight to heaven and progress there?

Doesn't make sense to me.

[JLHPROF]

Well there are obviously differences of opinion and I agree that there is no "official" position on the matter. All I can do is offer mine based on what I see in the scriptures.

People are damned if they do not reach their potential of obtaining the celestial kingdom, even though they are saved in some degree of glory. They are damned in the sense that they will not enjoy an eternal increase or the continuation of the family unit in eternity (D&C 132:4, 19).

What would be purpose of this life if it is not to prove ourselves worthy of the kingdom we are saved in? Should we just skip this life and go straight to heaven and progress there?

Doesn't make sense to me.

 

The flaw is in the application of 'Where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end' [D&C 76:112].

It is based on the also erroneous assumption that those in the Celestial never move beyond (a statement D&C 130:10 shows to be false).

 

Yes, those who are resurrected to a Telestial or Terrestrial level can NEVER go where Christ and God are.  But if Christ, God and the Celestialized children progress onwards and upwards beyond Celestial to higher kingdoms, this just means the Telestial and Terrestrial beings will never catch up to their presence.  It does NOT prevent a Terrestrial Kingdom and its inhabitants from progressing and perfecting themselves to a Celestial level.

 

As long as beings exist they are either progressing or regressing.  God's work and glory is to make his children into beings like himself.  That doesn't stop on the other side of the veil.  Those who fail to live up to Celestial law here may have a path to follow that we don't yet realize.  But they may individually or collectively as a kingdom continue to progress until worthy of Celestial glory, even if Heavenly Father and Christ's kingdoms by then have moved upward.

What would be the point in the Celestial ministering in the Terrestrial if not to help them to come up to that level?

 

It makes no sense to put them in a finite box (no matter the size) any more than it does to put God in a finite box and say God is done progressing.

I believe in eternal progression - for every being that is granted an eternal existence.  The alternative is too nonsensical and horrendous to even consider.  (There was a wonderful episode of Star Trek that proved this perfectly).

[JAHS]

The flaw is in the application of 'Where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end' [D&C 76:112].

It is based on the also erroneous assumption that those in the Celestial never move beyond (a statement D&C 130:10 shows to be false).

 

Yes, those who are resurrected to a Telestial or Terrestrial level can NEVER go where Christ and God are.  But if Christ, God and the Celestialized children progress onwards and upwards beyond Celestial to higher kingdoms, this just means the Telestial and Terrestrial beings will never catch up to their presence.  It does NOT prevent a Terrestrial Kingdom and its inhabitants from progressing and perfecting themselves to a Celestial level.

 

As long as beings exist they are either progressing or regressing.  God's work and glory is to make his children into beings like himself.  That doesn't stop on the other side of the veil.  Those who fail to live up to Celestial law here may have a path to follow that we don't yet realize.  But they may individually or collectively as a kingdom continue to progress until worthy of Celestial glory, even if Heavenly Father and Christ's kingdoms by then have moved upward.

What would be the point in the Celestial ministering in the Terrestrial if not to help them to come up to that level?

 

It makes no sense to put them in a finite box (no matter the size) any more than it does to put God in a finite box and say God is done progressing.

I believe in eternal progression - for every being that is granted an eternal existence.  The alternative is too nonsensical and horrendous to even consider.  (There was a wonderful episode of Star Trek that proved this perfectly).

I agree that those in the lower kingdoms can progress within their assigned kingdoms, and that is why those from higher kingdoms are sent to minister to them; to help them progress within that kingdom. 

 

 

"But they may individually or collectively as a kingdom continue to progress until worthy of Celestial glory"

 

Are there scriptures to back this up? 

[JLHPROF]

I agree that those in the lower kingdoms can progress within their assigned kingdoms, and that is why those from higher kingdoms are sent to minister to them; to help them progress within that kingdom. 

 

 

"But they may individually or collectively as a kingdom continue to progress until worthy of Celestial glory"

 

Are there scriptures to back this up? 

 

Logic more than scripture, since there is very little revealed about our post-resurrection progression.

I liked Rob's example of moving through the temple as well.

To say that someone can only progress within an assigned kingdom is to say: 

 

This Terrestrial kingdom contains 100 gallons of truth and knowledge (whereas the Celestial might contain a million gallons).  I can progress, gaining a gallon worth of truth and light every millennia of my existence.  Or maybe I'm slow and only gain 1/2 a gallon every millennia.  No matter how slow my progression is, if I am limited to any space/kingdom/container I will eventually achieve EVERYTHING there is to do at that level.  It could take billions of years, but eventually a progressing terrestrial being will have perfected themselves terrestrially AND done absolutely everything there is to do in a terrestial glory.  I am an eternal being with nothing to do for eternity.

 

Then I'm supposed to believe there is nothing else for them to do for the rest of their eternal existence.  I cannot accept that.

I do not know how those in the Terrestrial or Telestial would ever achieve exaltation (they would need to marry for instance) or what path their progression will take but I am not claiming any special knowledge on the how.  All I know for certain is that God did not create children with eternal existence to live in a finite kingdom.  If we are eternal, then there is a reason to exist eternally.

If we are to have an end to what we can achieve because bounds have been set, then there is no point in being eternal - we only need to exist long enough to achieve the limits of our location.

 

The best scriptures on the subject only hint at it:

 

D&C 130:10 tells us when we enter the Celestial Kingdom there are higher kingdoms to aim for.

Abraham 3:18-19 tells us that of any two intelligences one always has greater light - in a finite body of knowledge (terrestrial, celestial) eventually all would learn the same amount of light and be equal.

[Rob Osborn]

I don't think that is mean to represent what actually happens in the plan of salvation. It's just a means of teaching which laws we are required to live by for each kingdom.

I agree there is no "official" position about this but it just makes sense to me that kingdom to kingdom progression can't be possible because we are told that "this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God;" (Alma 34: 32),  

and,

"for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed." (verse 33)

 

except of course for those who did not have the chance to hear and accept it on earth. They will hear it in the next life and be resurrected with a body according to the kingdom they will inherit. JMO

The temple language is specific that we do in fact go from one kingdom, learning line upon line, precept upon precept, until we get to where we are prepared to enter into the next higher kingdom. It is the least understood doctrines in our church. The BoM prophets were in large part speaking on behalf of their own beliefs and not what is really truth. Latter day revelation teaches us that labors are performed in the spirit world and that spirits there do work to perfect themselves according to the laws and ordinances of the temple. This work is open to both those who never had the opportunity and those who died in their sins who rejected the prophets.

[Ahab]

In response to the OP, the 4th kingdom for those with no glory corresponds to what we refer to as outer darkness, and while it may not seem all that bad to those who will be sent there it's still not a "good" place to live unless you're one of those types who thinks that something evil is good even though it really is not good.

I do believe everyone will still be able to progress in glory if they really want to, though, and for as long as others are trying to teach them. Glory is all about intelligence, so to progress in glory involves gaining more intelligence and if a person is already as intelligent as he or she knows how to be, with as much intelligence as he or she has, then someone else with more intelligence is needed to give them more intelligence or intelligent information, otherwise the less intelligent person will be stuck with no way to gain any more intelligence than he or she already has. I would like to think that my visits to try to teach less intelligent people would do them some good, and my door will always be open to anyone who can help me gain more intelligence than I have at any given moment in eternity.