Is There A 4Th Kingdom Inbetween The Telestial And Outer Darkness?

[Rob Osborn]

The word saved can and does refer to several degrees of salvation, not just the 100% saved in every way possible to be saved degree of salvation, so you need to understand and be able to think in those terms instead of thinking that every time the word salvation is used the prophet was thinking in terms of the 100% saved in every way degree of salvation.

The prophet Joseph Smith pretty much wrote our scripture except for the bible. I did a research project years ago (cant find my actual worksheets and papers) but I was able to find that Joseph used the word th classic Protestant way where "salvation" mean "to be saved from hell". He also used its antonym "damnation" in the same Protestant way to "be condemned to hell". As having such meanings, the word can be defined in this way- A greater damnation means a longer duration in hell whereas a lesser damnation is a shorter duration in hell. This is th eproper use of that word. As such, "salvation" is only used in one sense and only has one degree or one level of meaning- it just means to be saved from hell. One cannot reap a greater or lesser salvation. Once one has reaped salvation (to be saved from eternal death) he may gain a higher degree of reward or glory. But that is a different term altogether. We do not say that Christ has degrees of saving. That would be like saying that he would save someone 75% from their sins. That doesnt make sense.

[Ahab]

The prophet Joseph Smith pretty much wrote our scripture except for the bible. I did a research project years ago (cant find my actual worksheets and papers) but I was able to find that Joseph used the word th classic Protestant way where "salvation" mean "to be saved from hell". He also used its antonym "damnation" in the same Protestant way to "be condemned to hell". As having such meanings, the word can be defined in this way- A greater damnation means a longer duration in hell whereas a lesser damnation is a shorter duration in hell. This is th eproper use of that word. As such, "salvation" is only used in one sense and only has one degree or one level of meaning- it just means to be saved from hell. One cannot reap a greater or lesser salvation. Once one has reaped salvation (to be saved from eternal death) he may gain a higher degree of reward or glory. But that is a different term altogether. We do not say that Christ has degrees of saving. That would be like saying that he would save someone 75% from their sins. That doesnt make sense.

We've gone over this before, several times, and you still refuse to let it sink in. There are many mansions or places to live in the kingdom of God and everyone in it is saved to a certain degree, not necessarily with 100% of the glory they could have received had they simply accepted and lived by all of the intelligence God tried to teach them. That means some will receive a telestial degree of glory/salvation, rather than a celestial degree, which means they are damned/dammed from celestial glory/salvation at least for a time. But even the telestial will be saved in the kingdom of God, rather than having to be or remain in Hell.

And even if you don't agree/accept this truth, it is still true.

[Rob Osborn]

We've gone over this before, several times, and you still refuse to let it sink in. There are many mansions or places to live in the kingdom of God and everyone in it is saved to a certain degree, not necessarily with 100% of the glory they could have received had they simply accepted and lived by all of the intelligence God tried to teach them. That means some will receive a telestial degree of glory/salvation, rather than a celestial degree, which means they are damned/dammed from celestial glory/salvation at least for a time. But even the telestial will be saved in the kingdom of God, rather than having to be or remain in Hell.

And even if you don't agree/accept this truth, it is still true.

You are not using "salvation" and "damnation" correctly. If you are "damned" it literally means you are condemned to hell.

[SamIam]

You are not using "salvation" and "damnation" correctly. If you are "damned" it literally means you are condemned to hell.

 

Rob,

 

I believe you might find something in this set of verses which provides clearer insight:

 

 

D & C 19:4-12 

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, amendless.

 5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

 8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

 9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

 10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

 11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

 12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

 

 

Additionally, this quote by Bruce R. McConkie will help clarify:

 

There are three kingdoms of glory in which resurrected men will be saved: the celestial, the terrestrial, and the telestial. "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees." The highest of these is reserved for those who gain eternal life. All others are damned in the sense that their progress is limited. There are restrictions placed upon them; they have reached the "end of [their] kingdom"; they "cannot have an increase." (D&C 131:1, 4.) (McConkie, Bruce R., A New Witness For The Articles of Faith, Pg. 145)

 

[blooit]

The prophet Joseph Smith pretty much wrote our scripture except for the bible. I did a research project years ago (cant find my actual worksheets and papers) but I was able to find that Joseph used the word th classic Protestant way where "salvation" mean "to be saved from hell". He also used its antonym "damnation" in the same Protestant way to "be condemned to hell". As having such meanings, the word can be defined in this way- A greater damnation means a longer duration in hell whereas a lesser damnation is a shorter duration in hell. This is th eproper use of that word. As such, "salvation" is only used in one sense and only has one degree or one level of meaning- it just means to be saved from hell. One cannot reap a greater or lesser salvation. Once one has reaped salvation (to be saved from eternal death) he may gain a higher degree of reward or glory. But that is a different term altogether. We do not say that Christ has degrees of saving. That would be like saying that he would save someone 75% from their sins. That doesnt make sense.

I would argue that anything less than celestial glory is a "degree of damnation"

[Rob Osborn]

I would argue that anything less than celestial glory is a "degree of damnation"

If you could find scripture proof you would have a good argument. I havent found any.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob,

 

I believe you might find something in this set of verses which provides clearer insight:

 

 

 

Additionally, this quote by Bruce R. McConkie will help clarify:

Section 19 speaks about the suffering that will come to those who, after the millennium, still are unrepentant. They will be thus cast into hell to suffer eternal damnation.

BRM has his opinions but its from a general misinterpretation of scripture.

[SamIam]

Section 19 speaks about the suffering that will come to those who, after the millennium, still are unrepentant. They will be thus cast into hell to suffer eternal damnation.

BRM has his opinions but its from a general misinterpretation of scripture.

 

As I suspected.

[Rob Osborn]

As I suspected.

BRM gets his definition from his mind not from scripture. If it was supported through scripture thst would be one thing...

[blooit]

BRM gets his definition from his mind not from scripture. If it was supported through scripture thst would be one thing...

I think we're back to "what is scripture" now

[Ahab]

You are not using "salvation" and "damnation" correctly. If you are "damned" it literally means you are condemned to hell.

Do you at least get the gist of what I've been saying? How else would you phrase it, what words would you use to talk about the limited degree of salvation for those who are saved in the kingdom of God but don't have celestial glory and can't, at least for a time, go where and do what those with more glory can go and do?

The words I use work if you understand what I mean.

[Rob Osborn]

Do you at least get the gist of what I've been saying? How else would you phrase it, what words would you use to talk about the limited degree of salvation for those who are saved in the kingdom of God but don't have celestial glory and can't, at least for a time, go where and do what those with more glory can go and do?

The words I use work if you understand what I mean.

Well, in the scriptures it says that there are many mansions in heaven. They also speak of different rewards. But as soon as you try to mix in the word "damned" with "saved" then you have an oxymoron. Why? Because if one is saved, it means they are saved from being damned. You cannot be saved and damned at the same time- that's an oxymoron.

[SamIam]

BRM gets his definition from his mind not from scripture. If it was supported through scripture thst would be one thing...

 

That was the point of D & C 19.  If you read those verses carefully Christ is providing you with a backdrop for how to understand the ideology of eternal damnation.  The challenge you face is that when you read the word eternal you are scoping through the mortal paradigm.  For us, because time encompasses every aspect of our lives, we focus on events that mark the passage of time.  Our lives take definition from those events.  At 16 we can drive, or we are ordained to the priesthood.  At 18 we presume we are adults.  We schedule our weddings and marriages as events that are rites of the passage of time. We define our very existance in terms of the event of birth and the other end the cessation of life in terms of death etc. etc.

 

The answer to the question in Doctrine and Covenants 19 is designed to get you to realize that where time encompasses everything we do it is not the same for God. God does not think or evaluate in terms of the successive passing of events in a linear fashion of occurrence.  What God does in D & C 19 is to take a paradigm that encompasses yours and most telestial thought processes entire frame of reference for evaluation – time and change it to a status.  For God eternal is not what it is for you.  When you continue to evaluate eternal as a paradigm of the passage of time that embraces your entire frame of reference you can’t possibly grasp what God does when he changes eternal to a function of status.  God encompasses time…time does not encompass God.  

 

However, for the time being time does encompass you.  Bruce R. McConkie understands this scriptural source perfectly.  When he reads the verses you use to define eternal damnation he makes the mental adjustment to bring them under a standard of the status of God’s existence as an eternal being and he modifies away from his paradigm of allowing time to define the extent of the range of his thoughts to comprehend God’s meaning.  This is not to say that there are not statuses in the eternities that are encompassed as an element of an eternal paradigm that may also be forever in terms of the passage of time such as never advancing out of the telestial kingdom once one is assigned there.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 19 requires a profound paradigm shift but the essence of the importance of the shift is contained in two thoughts.  The first is that God leaves the ideology that most accept for “eternal” alone and does not educate the average person because “it is more express than other scriptures that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory”.  In other words if they continue to believe as you do then it is a motivator towards improving behavior.

 

The second thought is what he states in verses 8 and 9:

 

Doctrine and Covenants 19:8-9

 

8.) …“for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

 

 

9.) I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

 

 

“Enter into my rest” is a phrase with meaning that I hope you recognize, however even if you do not, it clearly points to a distinction that to be one of Christ’s apostles one cannot be stuck in the paradigm of seeing time differently from how God sees it. So he explains a new perspective that is to move them from your perspective, which “works upon the hearts of men” to God’s perspective so that they can “enter into my rest.”  Apparently, one cannot enter into his rest until he correctly understands the implications of what it is to be eternal as a status of existence. 

 

You will not understand God, nor Bruce R. McConkie, nor my explanation until you can back away from a sense of all knowing to a state of true seeking.   

 

You are going to be tempted to say this has nothing to do with the scriptural expectations of damnation which you characterize as meaning condemned to Hell.  From one perspective you are correct they will be condemned to hell, by an eternal being but only for a temporary period of time, until final judgment, which, when they are released from this condition through repentance will find them assigned to a kingdom or, for some, to outer darkness.  Those so condemned to outer darkness are to our best knowledge condemned to hell for an eternal passage of time by an eternal being whose eternal status allows him to define the limits of times application in the eternities.

Edited December 25, 2014 by SamIam

[SamIam]

BRM gets his definition from his mind not from scripture. If it was supported through scripture thst would be one thing...

 

 

After the spirit put it there as scripture defines the process, I suspect you are absolutely correct:  D & C 8:2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart

Edited December 25, 2014 by SamIam

[Ahab]

Well, in the scriptures it says that there are many mansions in heaven. They also speak of different rewards. But as soon as you try to mix in the word "damned" with "saved" then you have an oxymoron. Why? Because if one is saved, it means they are saved from being damned. You cannot be saved and damned at the same time- that's an oxymoron.

It's not an oxymoron for me because I don't define saved to mean saved from being damned, or at least not only that. I define saved to mean to be saved from ANY condition that I (or anyone or anything else) would be in if I were not saved from that condition, like to be saved from Hell, or to be saved from being only a spirit without a (resurrected) body, or to be saved from having only telestial glory although to have telestial glory would at least mean I would be saved from eternal Hell, etc. Or even to use the word saved without any reference to eternal salvation, like to save some food for later instead of throwing it into the trash or a compost bin.

I think you're just using the word saved too narrowly without considering additional applications.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Ahab

[ERayR]

I would argue that anything less than celestial glory is a "degree of damnation"

 

Not to someone who would not be comfortable with a greater glory.  It is my conviction that we will be given what we are most comfortable with.

[Rob Osborn]

It's not an oxymoron for me because I don't define saved to mean saved from being damned, or at least not only that. I define saved to mean to be saved from ANY condition that I (or anyone or anything else) would be in if I were not saved from that condition, like to be saved from Hell, or to be saved from being only a spirit without a (resurrected) body, or to be saved from having only telestial glory although to have telestial glory would at least mean I would be saved from eternal Hell, etc. Or even to use the word saved without any reference to eternal salvation, like to save some food for later instead of throwing it into the trash or a compost bin.

I think you're just using the word saved too narrowly without considering additional applications.

The plan of salvation speaks of being "saved". This is the general sense in which it is used. It means to be saved from hell. Whenever the scriptures says "damned" it always means to be condemned to hell.

[ERayR]

The plan of salvation speaks of being "saved". This is the general sense in which it is used. It means to be saved from hell. Whenever the scriptures says "damned" it always means to be condemned to hell.

 

I think it would be more accurate to say that it means your progression is stopped at that point.

[Rob Osborn]

I think it would be more accurate to say that it means your progression is stopped at that point.

It means to be condemned to hell. It doesnt mean anything other than that.

[ERayR]

It means to be condemned to hell. It doesnt mean anything other than that.

My you are a dogmatic  It is also my understanding that in Mormon thought hell = outer darkness.  I do not think thst outer darkness is lage enough to accommodate the numbers your definition would generate. 

[Rob Osborn]

That was the point of D & C 19.  If you read those verses carefully Christ is providing you with a backdrop for how to understand the ideology of eternal damnation.  The challenge you face is that when you read the word eternal you are scoping through the mortal paradigm.  For us, because time encompasses every aspect of our lives, we focus on events that mark the passage of time.  Our lives take definition from those events.  At 16 we can drive, or we are ordained to the priesthood.  At 18 we presume we are adults.  We schedule our weddings and marriages as events that are rites of the passage of time. We define our very existance in terms of the event of birth and the other end the cessation of life in terms of death etc. etc.

 

The answer to the question in Doctrine and Covenants 19 is designed to get you to realize that where time encompasses everything we do it is not the same for God. God does not think or evaluate in terms of the successive passing of events in a linear fashion of occurrence.  What God does in D & C 19 is to take a paradigm that encompasses yours and most telestial thought processes entire frame of reference for evaluation – time and change it to a status.  For God eternal is not what it is for you.  When you continue to evaluate eternal as a paradigm of the passage of time that embraces your entire frame of reference you can’t possibly grasp what God does when he changes eternal to a function of status.  God encompasses time…time does not encompass God.  

 

However, for the time being time does encompass you.  Bruce R. McConkie understands this scriptural source perfectly.  When he reads the verses you use to define eternal damnation he makes the mental adjustment to bring them under a standard of the status of God’s existence as an eternal being and he modifies away from his paradigm of allowing time to define the extent of the range of his thoughts to comprehend God’s meaning.  This is not to say that there are not statuses in the eternities that are encompassed as an element of an eternal paradigm that may also be forever in terms of the passage of time such as never advancing out of the telestial kingdom once one is assigned there.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 19 requires a profound paradigm shift but the essence of the importance of the shift is contained in two thoughts.  The first is that God leaves the ideology that most accept for “eternal” alone and does not educate the average person because “it is more express than other scriptures that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory”.  In other words if they continue to believe as you do then it is a motivator towards improving behavior.

 

The second thought is what he states in verses 8 and 9:

 

 

“Enter into my rest” is a phrase with meaning that I hope you recognize, however even if you do not, it clearly points to a distinction that to be one of Christ’s apostles one cannot be stuck in the paradigm of seeing time differently from how God sees it. So he explains a new perspective that is to move them from your perspective, which “works upon the hearts of men” to God’s perspective so that they can “enter into my rest.”  Apparently, one cannot enter into his rest until he correctly understands the implications of what it is to be eternal as a status of existence. 

 

You will not understand God, nor Bruce R. McConkie, nor my explanation until you can back away from a sense of all knowing to a state of true seeking.   

 

You are going to be tempted to say this has nothing to do with the scriptural expectations of damnation which you characterize as meaning condemned to Hell.  From one perspective you are correct they will be condemned to hell, by an eternal being but only for a temporary period of time, until final judgment, which, when they are released from this condition through repentance will find them assigned to a kingdom or, for some, to outer darkness.  Those so condemned to outer darkness are to our best knowledge condemned to hell for an eternal passage of time by an eternal being whose eternal status allows him to define the limits of times application in the eternities.

The "eternal damnation" it speaks of is after the millennium and comes only to the devil and his angels.

[blooit]

My you are a dogmatic  It is also my understanding that in Mormon thought hell = outer darkness.  I do not think thst outer darkness is lage enough to accommodate the numbers your definition would generate. 

 

Black holes are outer darkness - not even energy (or spirits) can escape.  There is infinite room there.

 

(how's that for speculation)

[Rob Osborn]

My you are a dogmatic  It is also my understanding that in Mormon thought hell = outer darkness.  I do not think thst outer darkness is lage enough to accommodate the numbers your definition would generate.

Damnation can be temporary or permanent. Hell in LDS doctrine is defined as two places- 1. Its the place where the wicked go in the spirit prison until they are let out or cone before judgment. 2.Its also the pkace called "outer darkness" where the wicked will depart to after judgment. Both places are where the damned go. If one is saved, he is saved from the damnation of hell. There is nothing dogmatic about that.

[SamIam]

The "eternal damnation" it speaks of is after the millennium and comes only to the devil and his angels.

 

You have a lot of untenable opinions as you can provide no witnesses in the form of valid prophetic utterance or scripture. Thus you stand alone in your misunderstandings.  That should be your first clue that you might want to reexamine your conclusions.  It would be helpful to me if you took the D & C 19 which I carefully explained and you completely missed (as I pretty much knew you would) and show me how you draw your conclusions from what is written.  If you can do that perhaps it would at least help see your thought processes to understand your points better.  

[Rob Osborn]

You have a lot of untenable opinions as you can provide no witnesses in the form of valid prophetic utterance or scripture. Thus you stand alone in your misunderstandings.  That should be your first clue that you might want to reexamine your conclusions.  It would be helpful to me if you took the D & C 19 which I carefully explained and you completely missed (as I pretty much knew you would) and show me how you draw your conclusions from what is written.  If you can do that perhaps it would at least help see your thought processes to understand your points better.

Okay, bear with me for a bit. lets look at the first few relevant scriptures-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless

Look at the timing of this event. This is at the end of the world at the last great day of judgment. This is after the millennium. We know this because its he point where Satan and his works are finally destroyed. At this point every one must have repented. If you havent repented by this great last day of judgment after the millennium is over then the judgments about to be pronounced will come upon you. Next few verses-

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

This "endless torment" and "eternal damnation" is now pronounced upon those found at this day, separated from the right hand, and found to be unrepentant and thus to be cast off. Again, this is a timing point- the separation of the right hand and the left. Cross reference over to section 29-

22 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you that when the thousand years are ended, and men again begin to deny their God, then will I spare the earth but for a little season;

23 And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.

24 For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;

25 And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;

28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

29 And now, behold, I say unto you, never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power.

Now, we know that section 19 is speaking of the judgments coming to the devil and his angels found on the left hand. This eternal damnation is for only this group. Cross reference now over to section 76-

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

This gives us the key to it all that the suffering spoken of in those first verses of section 19 are those who suffer the eternal damnation spoken of- they are cast into hell into eternal torment and only the end thereof is known to those made partakers of it- not that it will last forever but that they must suffer through it.