Is There A 4Th Kingdom Inbetween The Telestial And Outer Darkness?

[SamIam]

Okay, bear with me for a bit. lets look at the first few relevant scriptures-

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless

Look at the timing of this event. This is at the end of the world at the last great day of judgment. This is after the millennium. We know this because its he point where Satan and his works are finally destroyed. At this point every one must have repented. If you havent repented by this great last day of judgment after the millennium is over then the judgments about to be pronounced will come upon you. Next few verses-

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

This gives us the key to it all that the suffering spoken of in those first verses of section 19 are those who suffer the eternal damnation spoken of- they are cast into hell into eternal torment and only the end thereof is known to those made partakers of it- not that it will last forever but that they must suffer through it.

 

 

Looking at what you have done above, it appears to me that you completely overlooked the implications of verse 6:

 

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

 

 

I can't detect that you are making any allowances for the implications of this verse.  When it says "it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment"  what are you getting out of this?

 

Next is verse 3:

 

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless

 

 

"Even to" is to define the extreme point of his power, it is not to describe the isolated group which remains at the end of the world, but it is inclusive of all that came before "even to" the final point. It also indicates that this power will be exercised in the judgement of "every man" again this broadens the statement beyond a limited application to Satan and his angels but is inclusive of "every man" as ALL will be judged. This is reitereated in his commandments to Joseph and the recipients of this revelation when in verse 15 he restates who he is warning concerning these judgements:

 

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

 

He is definitely warning them and I do not see any means of determining that he is saying that they are the sons of perditions that you feel he is addressing in this chapter.  He is describing to them the same level of intensity and suffering and anguish that all of the unrepentent go through, not only sons of perdition.

Verse 20 further clarifies his warning:

 

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

 

 

"Of which I have spoken" refers to the warnings of this chapter - clearly they are not warnings that are limited to the end of the world scenarios as you are stating but are specific to the here and now of this revelation. He even compares them to a level of experience they can relate to as when he withdrew his spirit indicating that while they thought that was severe the sufferings of the unrepentent are so m uch more severe and thus he has commanded them to repent that they not have to endure this greater level of suffering. 

 

It appears from all considerations so far that you are forcing a preconcieved interpretation which can only be maintained by overlooking other implications that do not fit your paradigm.

 

You rejected Bruce R. McConkies insight that I provided earlier, so I thought I would add a couple of other voices of witness:

The false doctrine that the punishment to be visited upon erring souls is endless, that every sentence for sin is of interminable duration, must be regarded as one of the most pernicious results of misapprehension of scripture. It is but a dogma of unauthorized and erring sectaries, at once unscriptural, unreasonable, and revolting to one who loves mercy and honors justice. True, the scriptures speak of everlasting burnings, eternal damnation, and the vengeance of eternal fire, fn as characteristics of the judgment provided for the wicked; yet in no instance is there justification for the inference that the individual sinner will have to suffer the wrath of offended justice forever and ever. The punishment in any case is sufficiently severe without the added and supreme horror of unending continuation. Justice must have her due; but when "the uttermost farthing" is paid, the prison doors shall open and the captive be free. But the prison remains, and the law prescribing punishment for offenses is not to be repealed. (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 55.)

 

 

 

The explanation given in this revelation of eternal punishment, endless punishment and eternal damnation, throws a flood of light on many passages of ancient scripture. The Lord permitted the prophets of old to speak of endless punishment, and the fire that is not quenched—even Christ did this himself—that the sinners might be impressed and brought to repentance. It was done, so the Lord reveals, in a manner more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory. Here the Lord explains the mystery. "Eternal punishment" is God's punishment, since he is Eternal. All the laws of God are eternal, but in meting out punishment to men in mortality he has not declared that there is no opportunity for forgiveness even in the life to come. The Savior said, "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matt. 12:31-32.) This shows that the Savior taught that sins—all sins in fact which were not unto death—could be forgiven in the world to come.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 1: 82.)

 

 

The demands of justice must be satisfied. Then mercy steps in and claims the creature. Therefore this horrible doctrine that is taught, through a misconception of the Scriptures, concerning beings that are consigned to hell throughout the endless ages of eternity, without any possiblity of redemption, is not true. It does not follow that because there is a place of punishment which is eternal in its character, or that the punishment itself is eternal, the being consigned to it shall remain in it eternally. God has made this plain to us, and it has relieved us to a great extent from the horrible fears with which the idea of a future place of torment is associated in the minds of modern men. After the transgression is atoned for, then salvation comes. (Taylor, John Collected Discourses, 5 vols. [burbank, Calif., and Woodland Hills, Ut.: B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992], 2: .)

 

Edited December 26, 2014 by SamIam

[Rob Osborn]

I believe the eternal damnation is eternal in the sense that unless one wants change then it is endless in duration. Of most importance is thatb the eternal damnation only befalls the devil and his angels.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I can't imagine how people wouldn't want to repent to save their souls. That's something I don't understand.

[SamIam]

I believe the eternal damnation is eternal in the sense that unless one wants change then it is endless in duration. Of most importance is thatb the eternal damnation only befalls the devil and his angels.

 

I guess I'll just have to be concilliatory as it appears you have placed a great deal of emphasis on one aspect of eternal damnation, the linear time based mentality, as oppossed to considering the implications of D & C 19 and the quotes of men who should not be so easily dismissed. As one point of an entire spectrum of doctrine concerning eternal damnation, if I am understanding your position correctly, it is a sometimes right sometimes wrong perspective and the only way to see the difference is to understand the points I made in my earlier post.

 

The real issue is you are not trying to break away from your mortal time based paradigm to try to see this from the perspective of an eternal being that completely comprehends time and defines time instead of being defined by time.  Of course this change in understanding does not just happen but takes sincere effort.

 

Good enough.... 

Edited December 26, 2014 by SamIam

[Ahab]

The plan of salvation speaks of being "saved". This is the general sense in which it is used. It means to be saved from hell. Whenever the scriptures says "damned" it always means to be condemned to hell.

If that's true that indicates that those with only telestial or terrestrial glory may progress to celestial glory, and that sounds very good to me.

[Rob Osborn]

I guess I'll just have to be concilliatory as it appears you have placed a great deal of emphasis on one aspect of eternal damnation, the linear time based mentality, as oppossed to considering the implications of D & C 19 and the quotes of men who should not be so easily dismissed. As one point of an entire spectrum of doctrine concerning eternal damnation, if I am understanding your position correctly, it is a sometimes right sometimes wrong perspective and the only way to see the difference is to understand the points I made in my earlier post.

 

The real issue is you are not trying to break away from your mortal time based paradigm to try to see this from the perspective of an eternal being that completely comprehends time and defines time instead of being defined by time.  Of course this change in understanding does not just happen but takes sincere effort.

 

Good enough....

I am not sure but we may be discussing different things. I read section 19 as it is discussing the nature of eternal damnation which it defines as not necessarily an everlasting (never ending) condemnation. But I also read it as being defined as the suffering for those after final judgment because the timing of it says that it happens after Satan and his works have been destroyed. In all cases in the scripture, "eternal damnation" is only meted out after resurrection and judgment. It is synonymous with the "second death".

[SamIam]

I am not sure but we may be discussing different things. I read section 19 as it is discussing the nature of eternal damnation which it defines as not necessarily an everlasting (never ending) condemnation. But I also read it as being defined as the suffering for those after final judgment because the timing of it says that it happens after Satan and his works have been destroyed. In all cases in the scripture, "eternal damnation" is only meted out after resurrection and judgment. It is synonymous with the "second death".

 

This is the most accurate thing you have deduced in our conversation.  We are talking about different things in a manner of speaking.

 

What is unfortunate is you are restricting yourself to a narrow definition that D&C 19 tries to correct, as well as the myriad quotes I have provided, they also try to correct...perhaps correct is the wrong perspective...it is more of a broadening of your perspective that is being sought. You have it half way but you can't get over the hump of seeing a fullness or at least fuller context of the doctrine.

 

In a time based paradigm you are absolutely correct. Technically the only ones that we are aware of that literally remain in an unredeemed state for an endless period of time are those that are assigned to outer darkness...(unless we want to interject Brigham Young's statements concerning the eventual dissolution of the spirit bodies of the sons of perdition...but let's not go there). Still yours is a time based paradigm and is exclusively the realm of mortality.  If all you are seeking to grasp is how men understand these things - then all is good.

 

However, D & C 19 is trying to give a group of apostles (and any who will take the time to grasp it) a broader view of how God views "eternal". This is distinctly different than a time bound view, as it begins to focus man, guided by the spirit, into a different paradigm of considering the things of God from an eternal perspective.  Recalling that God tells them that they must comprehend this eternal perspective BEFORE they can enter into his rest informs them of the vital nature of grasping this perspective and should alert a mature seeker of truth to seek until they understand this perspective. As entering into his rest is scripture speak for eternal life/exaltation - the highest level of potential in this existence - this perspective is vital.  

 

So while you are focusing on the time based eternal nature of the damned, what D & C 19 is trying to get you to see is a state or condition that is not only the eternal equivalent of this state of the condemned in a time sense but also is comprehended by the true nature of a fullness of eternal called exaltation. Thus while you continue to obsess over the narrow application of a time based determination for the damned, God is trying to get you to change your focus to the true comprehensive nature of the exalted.

 

D & C 19 is trying to broaden your perspective from one that sees all things as defined by time based considerations to a means of grasping God's perspective where he binds time within the very state of existence that is defined as eternal life. The point being that time manages you and I but it does not manage God...God manages time.   

 

Finally, the reason this is so important is the principle of receiving the ultimate blessing to "enter into his rest" is based on man's changing paradigm to understand things in a more eternal fashion.  It also is a gateway perspective that applies to far more than is obvious in D & C 19.  The great wealth of D & C 19 is not just about gaining an eternal perspective in how time is measured but it begins to change how you consider all things in scripture. This adjustment in thinking can completely alter and advance your ability to consider upon all things of God in ways that can never be approached within mortal paradigms.  

Edited December 27, 2014 by SamIam

[Rob Osborn]

This is the most accurate thing you have deduced in our conversation.  We are talking about different things in a manner of speaking.

 

What is unfortunate is you are restricting yourself to a narrow definition that D&C 19 tries to correct, as well as the myriad quotes I have provided, they also try to correct...perhaps correct is the wrong perspective...it is more of a broadening of your perspective that is being sought. You have it half way but you can't get over the hump of seeing a fullness or at least fuller context of the doctrine.

 

In a time based paradigm you are absolutely correct. Technically the only ones that we are aware of that literally remain in an unredeemed state for an endless period of time are those that are assigned to outer darkness...(unless we want to interject Brigham Young's statements concerning the eventual dissolution of the spirit bodies of the sons of perdition...but let's not go there). Still yours is a time based paradigm and is exclusively the realm of mortality.  If all you are seeking to grasp is how men understand these things - then all is good.

 

However, D & C 19 is trying to give a group of apostles (and any who will take the time to grasp it) a broader view of how God views "eternal". This is distinctly different than a time bound view, as it begins to focus man, guided by the spirit, into a different paradigm of considering the things of God from an eternal perspective.  Recalling that God tells them that they must comprehend this eternal perspective BEFORE they can enter into his rest informs them of the vital nature of grasping this perspective and should alert a mature seeker of truth to seek until they understand this perspective. As entering into his rest is scripture speak for eternal life/exaltation - the highest level of potential in this existence - this perspective is vital.  

 

So while you are focusing on the time based eternal nature of the damned, what D & C 19 is trying to get you to see is a state or condition that is not only the eternal equivalent of this state of the condemned in a time sense but also is comprehended by the true nature of a fullness of eternal called exaltation. Thus while you continue to obsess over the narrow application of a time based determination for the damned, God is trying to get you to change your focus to the true comprehensive nature of the exalted.

 

D & C 19 is trying to broaden your perspective from one that sees all things as defined by time based considerations to a means of grasping God's perspective where he binds time within the very state of existence that is defined as eternal life. The point being that time manages you and I but it does not manage God...God manages time.   

 

Finally, the reason this is so important is the principle of receiving the ultimate blessing to "enter into his rest" is based on man's changing paradigm to understand things in a more eternal fashion.  It also is a gateway perspective that applies to far more than is obvious in D & C 19.  The great wealth of D & C 19 is not just about gaining an eternal perspective in how time is measured but it begins to change how you consider all things in scripture. This adjustment in thinking can completely alter and advance your ability to consider upon all things of God in ways that can never be approached within mortal paradigms.  

I think we are talking about different things. I am trying to define "damnation".

[SamIam]

I think we are talking about different things. I am trying to define "damnation".

It seemed you were trying to define "eternal damnation". If it is only damnation you seek then you should really pay more attention to the Bruce R. McConkie quote which nails it.

 

If you wish to understand the implications that are surrounding the concept of "eternal" as it affects understandings of "damnation" then everything I have written and quoted is pointing in that direction to illuminate your understanding.  Best of luck in your ongoing search. 

Edited December 28, 2014 by SamIam

[Rob Osborn]

It seemed you were trying to define "eternal damnation". If it is only damnation you seek then you should really pay more attention to the Bruce R. McConkie quote which nails it.

 

If you wish to understand the implications that are surrounding the concept of "eternal" as it affects understandings of "damnation" then everything I have written and quoted is pointing in that direction to illuminate your understanding.  Best of luck in your ongoing search.

BRM doesnt nail it though. He just didnt define the word properly and it has led to a landslide of misunderstanding in the church. IAs a church, we have redefined a word that Joseph Smith did not intend it to be meant. Its just pretty much a bad understanding / misunderstanding of the English language. Damnation is condemnation to hell. You can couple that word with "eternal" or "everlasting", "endless", etc to speak of the quality of depth, length of duration etc. But the fact remains that "damnation" itself means to be condemned to hell- nothing more and nothing less.

[SamIam]

I am not sure but we may be discussing different things. I read section 19 as it is discussing the nature of eternal damnation which it defines as not necessarily an everlasting (never ending) condemnation. But I also read it as being defined as the suffering for those after final judgment because the timing of it says that it happens after Satan and his works have been destroyed. In all cases in the scripture, "eternal damnation" is only meted out after resurrection and judgment. It is synonymous with the "second death".

 

Here above, you define eternal damnation as only applicable to Sons of Perdition.

 

BRM doesnt nail it though. He just didnt define the word properly and it has led to a landslide of misunderstanding in the church. IAs a church, we have redefined a word that Joseph Smith did not intend it to be meant. Its just pretty much a bad understanding / misunderstanding of the English language. Damnation is condemnation to hell. You can couple that word with "eternal" or "everlasting", "endless", etc to speak of the quality of depth, length of duration etc. But the fact remains that "damnation" itself means to be condemned to hell- nothing more and nothing less.

 

Coupling your first comment above with this second one for clarity of what you are saying overall, it becomes apparant that you are shifting somewhat in your understanding but not acknowlging your shifts. Your second thought above I could live with if that was the position you had maintained all along as that usage permits us to match the D & C 19 considerations that damnation could also be applicable to those who are not Sons of Perdition and that they do not suffer for an endless period of time but only until they repent but that suffering regardless of duration is still referred to in D&C 19 as eternal damnation.

 

I can only add, one more time, that it seems you are having trouble acknowledging the point that D & C 19 is trying to make.  That point is also what the Elder McConkie, James Talmage, Joseph Fielding Smith, and John Taylor quotes that I provided as support, base their insight on. I can find several more quotes from others that say the very same thing. Finally I learned the principle myself before I ever knew of anyone else's commentary on the matter through pondering and study of those scriptures and others related to it.  I know what I was taught very clearly and it remains a constant standard of understanding that I use in contemplating a myriad of other principles for the value of the paradigm shift.

 

Thus the only way to carry this conversation any further is if you can provide any witnesses to sustain your perspective.  That you appear to have a personal interpretation is fine with me however, the point of my efforts in this discussion are simply to have you provide something more tangible than a personal opinion that is in opposition to Apostles and Prophets who have made an effort to unite the saints on a reasonable understanding of this concept as it is expressed in scripture. As well understanding this concept has been very significant to me and I hoped to get you closer to the implications of the verses.   If your final two sentences above is where you are now then I am happy to leave it a that.  Thank you for your engaging efforts.

[Rob Osborn]

Here above, you define eternal damnation as only applicable to Sons of Perdition.

 

 

Coupling your first comment above with this second one for clarity of what you are saying overall, it becomes apparant that you are shifting somewhat in your understanding but not acknowlging your shifts. Your second thought above I could live with if that was the position you had maintained all along as that usage permits us to match the D & C 19 considerations that damnation could also be applicable to those who are not Sons of Perdition and that they do not suffer for an endless period of time but only until they repent but that suffering regardless of duration is still referred to in D&C 19 as eternal damnation.

 

I can only add, one more time, that it seems you are having trouble acknowledging the point that D & C 19 is trying to make.  That point is also what the Elder McConkie, James Talmage, Joseph Fielding Smith, and John Taylor quotes that I provided as support, base their insight on. I can find several more quotes from others that say the very same thing. Finally I learned the principle myself before I ever knew of anyone else's commentary on the matter through pondering and study of those scriptures and others related to it.  I know what I was taught very clearly and it remains a constant standard of understanding that I use in contemplating a myriad of other principles for the value of the paradigm shift.

 

Thus the only way to carry this conversation any further is if you can provide any witnesses to sustain your perspective.  That you appear to have a personal interpretation is fine with me however, the point of my efforts in this discussion are simply to have you provide something more tangible than a personal opinion that is in opposition to Apostles and Prophets who have made an effort to unite the saints on a reasonable understanding of this concept as it is expressed in scripture. As well understanding this concept has been very significant to me and I hoped to get you closer to the implications of the verses.   If your final two sentences above is where you are now then I am happy to leave it a that.  Thank you for your engaging efforts.

There are seven instances where the term "eternal damnation", "endless damnation", "everlasting damnation" appear in scripture and in every one of those instances it is referring to those who become sons of perdition. I have been trying to show that "damnation" in scripture means only one thing- to be condemned to hell. Coupling that word with a word like "eternal" specifies the timing, quality and duration of the condemnation to hell. I am not shifting at all in my understanding of it, I am just trying to explain the nature of damnation and to show that one cannot be saved from hell and still be damned (oxymoron).

[SamIam]

There are seven instances where the term "eternal damnation", "endless damnation", "everlasting damnation" appear in scripture and in every one of those instances it is referring to those who become sons of perdition. I have been trying to show that "damnation" in scripture means only one thing- to be condemned to hell. Coupling that word with a word like "eternal" specifies the timing, quality and duration of the condemnation to hell. I am not shifting at all in my understanding of it, I am just trying to explain the nature of damnation and to show that one cannot be saved from hell and still be damned (oxymoron).

 

Witnesses?

[Rob Osborn]

Witnesses?

What do you mean?

[SamIam]

What do you mean?

There are, within LDS theology, certain standards for the dissemination of doctrine.  I have many points of understanding that are unique to me and, while I am content that they are correct understandings, I understand the constraints taught by the General Authorities concerning what we should publically discuss and what we should avoid.  Most things of a temporal nature are fair game - talk away, convince who you can and live life.  

 

However, points of doctrine are not so casually approached.  As I pointed out, I learned what I know concerning our discussion from the spirit before I ever considered having a public discussion.  When I learn something through the spirit I search out the writings of the Apostles and Prophets and I find if there has been anything, even remotely, taught that is common with what I have learned.  

 

This is pertaining to the law of witnesses where the Lord states that from the mouth of two or three witnesses will my word be established.  When one can meet this criteria one witness of limited value, me, is sustained by the witnesses of immense value, the proper servants of the Lord.  Thus according to God's pattern I can be confident in teaching the material when appropriate.

 

It protects me from teaching false doctrine because I only share what I can back up with the words of legitimate witnesses. If I find no statement from an apostle or prophet then it is not my right or privilege to introduce new material.  It also protects me that I can continue to receive further light and knowledge because I protect that which is unique revelations to me and God expects us to keep these things to ourselves.

 

In your case you have presented a unique and singular interpretation of doctrine.  I have gone back and reread everything you have commented on this thread and find that you have many singular and isolated interpretations of doctrine.  That’s okay with me as I have much of my own; however, there is no credibility to being a single witness.  If you cannot find the two or three witnesses to sustain your perspective you cannot hope to be perceived as credible.  Of course in this day we find many that do not understand the law of witnesses and think they can discount the testimonies of the legitimate witnesses that are provided specifically to assist in understandings of the common doctrines we share.  They vaunt their singular knowledge as of greater truthfulness than that of the legitimate witnesses.

 

This portion of this doctrine you and I have been discussing is doctrine that I not only understand clearly but I also have witnesses in Elder McConkie, Elder Talmage, President Taylor, and President Joseph Fielding Smith.  I can sustain my understandings from an internal spirit born understanding but I can teach it because I have the greater witnesses of these four men who appear to understand the doctrine the same way that I have come to understand it. I borrow credibility from the servants of God by aligning with their teachings.

 

I am now asking you to provide your witnesses.  Create a sense of credibility for your observations by showing the teachings of other valid witnesses who understand these things just as you do.  There is, from time to time, differing perspectives amongst general authorities and so perhaps you will give merit to your claims by searching out this matter well enough that you can show legitimacy by citing valid witnesses to bolster your claims.   In this case, to be candid, I am sure you will find no witnesses of the general authorities of the church who will speak to this issue with your understanding…but maybe you will.  If so, then I will further research and pursue what you provide.  However, if you cannot, then you are teaching a singular doctrine understood only by you in the manner in which you present it.  Should this be the case …you have no case.

[Rob Osborn]

There are, within LDS theology, certain standards for the dissemination of doctrine.  I have many points of understanding that are unique to me and, while I am content that they are correct understandings, I understand the constraints taught by the General Authorities concerning what we should publically discuss and what we should avoid.  Most things of a temporal nature are fair game - talk away, convince who you can and live life.  

 

 

However, points of doctrine are not so casually approached.  As I pointed out, I learned what I know concerning our discussion from the spirit before I ever considered having a public discussion.  When I learn something through the spirit I search out the writings of the Apostles and Prophets and I find if there has been anything, even remotely, taught that is common with what I have learned.  

 

 

This is pertaining to the law of witnesses where the Lord states that from the mouth of two or three witnesses will my word be established.  When one can meet this criteria one witness of limited value, me, is sustained by the witnesses of immense value, the proper servants of the Lord.  Thus according to God's pattern I can be confident in teaching the material when appropriate.

 

 

It protects me from teaching false doctrine because I only share what I can back up with the words of legitimate witnesses. If I find no statement from an apostle or prophet then it is not my right or privilege to introduce new material.  It also protects me that I can continue to receive further light and knowledge because I protect that which is unique revelations to me and God expects us to keep these things to ourselves.

 

 

In your case you have presented a unique and singular interpretation of doctrine.  I have gone back and reread everything you have commented on this thread and find that you have many singular and isolated interpretations of doctrine.  That’s okay with me as I have much of my own; however, there is no credibility to being a single witness.  If you cannot find the two or three witnesses to sustain your perspective you cannot hope to be perceived as credible.  Of course in this day we find many that do not understand the law of witnesses and think they can discount the testimonies of the legitimate witnesses that are provided specifically to assist in understandings of the common doctrines we share.  They vaunt their singular knowledge as of greater truthfulness than that of the legitimate witnesses.

 

 

This portion of this doctrine you and I have been discussing is doctrine that I not only understand clearly but I also have witnesses in Elder McConkie, Elder Talmage, President Taylor, and President Joseph Fielding Smith.  I can sustain my understandings from an internal spirit born understanding but I can teach it because I have the greater witnesses of these four men who appear to understand the doctrine the same way that I have come to understand it. I borrow credibility from the servants of God by aligning with their teachings.

 

 

I am now asking you to provide your witnesses.  Create a sense of credibility for your observations by showing the teachings of other valid witnesses who understand these things just as you do.  There is, from time to time, differing perspectives amongst general authorities and so perhaps you will give merit to your claims by searching out this matter well enough that you can show legitimacy by citing valid witnesses to bolster your claims.   In this case, to be candid, I am sure you will find no witnesses of the general authorities of the church who will speak to this issue with your understanding…but maybe you will.  If so, then I will further research and pursue what you provide.  However, if you cannot, then you are teaching a singular doctrine understood only by you in the manner in which you present it.  Should this be the case …you have no case.

Well, on "eternal damnation", how about the word of God for a witness? Here-

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:43-45)

There will be two groups raised up in the resurrection- those who are resurrected unto eternal life and those resurrected unto eternal damnation receiving their wages from the devil and going into hell.

[SamIam]

Well, on "eternal damnation", how about the word of God for a witness? Here-

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (D&C 29:43-45)

There will be two groups raised up in the resurrection- those who are resurrected unto eternal life and those resurrected unto eternal damnation receiving their wages from the devil and going into hell.

 

Nice start but you are missing so much other material that describes and adds exactness to ensure an accurate interpretation.  Absent that and/or some prophetic commentary and your declarations that Bruce R. McConkie and the other four witnesses I provided do not understand the doctrine properly, leads me to beleive that we may not ever come to a common agreement concerning this material.  Best of luck to you...

[Rob Osborn]

Nice start but you are missing so much other material that describes and adds exactness to ensure an accurate interpretation.  Absent that and/or some prophetic commentary and your declarations that Bruce R. McConkie and the other four witnesses I provided do not understand the doctrine properly, leads me to beleive that we may not ever come to a common agreement concerning this material.  Best of luck to you...

Forget the commentary for a minute. What do these scriptures mean? Eternal damnation coming to those unrepentant at resurrection and judgment. How about the next scripture-

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation

12 Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent. (Mosiah 16:11-12)

Here again is another witness to what this eternal/endless damnation is. Its being resurrected and delivered into hell which is damnation.

[SamIam]

Forget the commentary for a minute. What do these scriptures mean? Eternal damnation coming to those unrepentant at resurrection and judgment. How about the next scripture-

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation

12 Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent. (Mosiah 16:11-12)

Here again is another witness to what this eternal/endless damnation is. Its being resurrected and delivered into hell which is damnation.

 

It's a rope, another says it's a snake, someone else says it is like a wall.  If you are going to understand what an elephant looks like you will have to take all, did I say ALL references that describe it's parts and put together this elephant.  Nothing that is said above is contrary to what D & C 19 contributes to the mix.  However, what D & C 19 does is undermine your interpretation of what is said above.  It purports to explain a mystery - something not commonly grasped in traditional interpretations.  That's why D & C 19 is so important to you - it reveals the mystery. However, one cannot blindly ignore it's implications and then condemn some of the most brilliant theologians of our time and claim much wisdom in the matter.  Let us part agreeing to disagree on this point ... 

[Rob Osborn]

It's a rope, another says it's a snake, someone else says it is like a wall.  If you are going to understand what an elephant looks like you will have to take all, did I say ALL references that describe it's parts and put together this elephant.  Nothing that is said above is contrary to what D & C 19 contributes to the mix.  However, what D & C 19 does is undermine your interpretation of what is said above.  It purports to explain a mystery - something not commonly grasped in traditional interpretations.  That's why D & C 19 is so important to you - it reveals the mystery. However, one cannot blindly ignore it's implications and then condemn some of the most brilliant theologians of our time and claim much wisdom in the matter.  Let us part agreeing to disagree on this point ...

But I can show where every instance of "damnation" mentioned in scripture means what I am describing. Its only when we add error in commentary that the definition shifts. You cant point out any instance where your commentary matches scripture definition.

[Rob Osborn]

The only thing section 19 explains is that the "eternal" part of suffering doesn't necessarily mean it "lasts forever". But, it also explains this in the context to those who after resurrection and judgment are still unrepentant of the which that this type of suffering befalls.