Is There A 4Th Kingdom Inbetween The Telestial And Outer Darkness?

[SamIam]

Here is some interesting doctrine concerning progression- Here-

The Prophet Joseph Smith said, speaking of Paul’s comment about one who was caught up to the third kingdom (see 2 Corinthians 12:2), “Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob’s ladder—the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms” (Teachings, pp. 304–5).

President Marion G. Romney explained why this vision of heaven was shown in the form of a ladder and why the name of the place where it happened was called Bethel:

“When Jacob traveled from Beersheba toward Haran, he had a dream in which he saw himself on the earth at the foot of a ladder that reached to heaven where the Lord stood above it. He beheld angels ascending and descending thereon, and Jacob realized that the covenants he made with the Lord there were the rungs on the ladder that he himself would have to climb in order to obtain the promised blessings—blessings that would entitle him to enter heaven and associate with the Lord." https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-24-36-the-covenant-line-continues-with-isaac-and-jacob?lang=eng

Also here later in Joseph Smith;s life-

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

If we thus combine all three statements made and couple that with what we know about the temple endowment..And what exactly is the temple endowment?

Here-

" President Gordon B. Hinckley said that the temple “becomes a school of instruction in the sweet and sacred things of God. Here we have outlined the plan of a loving Father in behalf of His sons and daughters of all generations. Here we have sketched before us the odyssey of man’s eternal journey from premortal existence through this life to the life beyond. Great fundamental and basic truths are taught with clarity and simplicity well within the understanding of all who hear” (“The Salt Lake Temple,” Ensign, Mar. 1993, 5–6).

President Brigham Young taught that the temple ordinance called the endowment gives us instruction necessary for eternal life: “Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 416)." https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual/lesson-1-the-temple-teaches-about-the-great-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

Thus putting it all together we see that the temple endowment is the plan of salvation and that we climb the three principles rungs, progressing from the telestial kingdom to the terrestrial kingdom to the celestial kingdom. In each of these kingdoms we make covenants and learn how to become gods ourselves by progressing from one kingdom to another to another- having glory added upon glory added upon glory.

 

Most of your material and interpretation seems reasonable. However, I have underlined the portion that I think has taken on more liscense that your quotes provide. Bruce R. McConkie interpreted the ascension through varing degrees as a part of this mortal probation.  From his talk, The Seven Deadly Heresies he states it like this:

 

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or if not that, lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This is worse than false. It is an evil and pernicious doctrine. It lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.  

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.     (http://www.mrm.org/seven-deadly-heresies)

 

 

I have other sources where Elder McConkie indicates this is predicated upon Alma 41 - the law of restoration which discusses how in the resurrection we are restored to the good or evil places we were in this life.  His obviously legitimate question was how is one restored to something he never had, thus we must achieve our various grades of body, telestial, terrestrial and celestial in this life.  Doctrine and Covenants 88 then adds to this message that once restored we will be given a fullness of whatever level of achievement we have been determined to merit.  This actually fits better with your temple observation, as the progression we travel through in the endowment is all prior to our having been presented at the veil.

Edited December 16, 2014 by SamIam

[Ahab]

I see the plan of salvation/happiness as a set of principles/guidelines and ordinances/works that we need to follow/accept/live to be able to become perfect/as our Father is now. If/when we follow/live up to it, it works, and when we don't, then we don't achieve/attain the ultimate goal and instead fall short to some lower degree of progression, if not regressing to become even worse off than we once were. And the "thing" that wipes away any and all of our transgressions/imperfections when we do fall short is repentance through the power of God in the atonement of Jesus Christ. The atonement without repentance doesn't do anything for us because without repentance we continue in the same transgressions/imperfections, instead of overcoming and not doing those bad things anymore.

So what is this mortal probation all about? What great lessons does our Father want us to learn from our own experiences here? That when we mess up we need to stop messing up, to do things right instead of doing things wrong. We all, except Jesus, have messed up in some way or another in our own lives, but that doesn't mean we need to continue to mess up. And when there comes a day when we will be sorted out by how well we have followed the plan, with some moving up/advancing from one stage of intelligence/glory to another, higher, more advanced stage, that doesn't mean those who don't advance then can't or won't eventually learn to do better and become better, more glorious/intelligent people than they will be on the day of that sorting. Some of them/us will just need some more remedial education, with more time to learn from their own weaknesses. Those who don't move on up/progress at the same rate as another can still move up/progress eventually. To think otherwise is to think those less advanced people will always be less advanced, forever, which shows a great lack of faith in repentance through the power of God in the atonement of Jesus Christ.

[Rob Osborn]

Most of your material and interpretation seems reasonable. However, I have underlined the portion that I think has taken on more liscense that your quotes provide. Bruce R. McConkie interpreted the ascension through varing degrees as a part of this mortal probation.  From his talk, The Seven Deadly Heresies he states it like this:

 

 

 

I have other sources where Elder McConkie indicates this is predicated upon Alma 41 - the law of restoration which discusses how in the resurrection we are restored to the good or evil places we were in this life.  His obviously legitimate question was how is one restored to something he never had, thus we must achieve our various grades of body, telestial, terrestrial and celestial in this life.  Doctrine and Covenants 88 then adds to this message that once restored we will be given a fullness of whatever level of achievement we have been determined to merit.  This actually fits better with your temple observation, as the progression we travel through in the endowment is all prior to our having been presented at the veil.

BRM's seven deadly heresies is his own opinions just as are mine. If only what we did on this life was the factor for glory, no one really would merit celestial glory. There must ne a means after this life to learn perfection before judgment. So, what is everyone doing n the earth during the millennium? Is this not when Christ is perfecting the kingdom to present to the Father spotless?

[Ahab]

BRM's seven deadly heresies is his own opinions just as are mine. If only what we did on this life was the factor for glory, no one really would merit celestial glory. There must ne a means after this life to learn perfection before judgment. So, what is everyone doing n the earth during the millennium? Is this not when Christ is perfecting the kingdom to present to the Father spotless?

For some people, 1000 years is just not enough time for them to become perfect/as our Father in heaven. And the good news is that, even though some will not accept/advance as much as others who will have already accepted at least some celestial glory/intelligence, all will eventually be able to repent and become perfect/as our Father, eventually, as long as they will try to be better.

[JLHPROF]

I have wrestled with the scriptures on many occasion with this. I have found a way that makes sense of how it works. For instance- people resurrected up to this point have been resurrected with a telestial glory because that is the glory of the earth right now. But, this does not mean that is all the higher body they will receive because we are told that the bodies who enter into the terrestrial kingdom (the millennium) will have their bodies "quickened" to that glory. Then all of those telestial resurrected souls will then be made terrestrial. After further perfection, at the end of th emillennium, they will be "quickened" again and their bodies will attain unto celestial grade bodies.

 

I don't think that Christ was resurrected with a Telestial glory, nor do I find any indication that his resurrection was any different than the resurrection of the other saint who were resurrected at the same time he was.

I don't think that our resurrected bodies progress in glory starting as telestial and ending as celestial.   It's a nice thought, but I don't see any scriptural or temple evidence of this progression on the other side of the mortal veil.

 

But I still fully believe that progression is eternal and those that say Terrestrial people will remain terrestrial for ever without end are not reading their scriptures and prophets correctly.

[Rob Osborn]

For some people, 1000 years is just not enough time for them to become perfect/as our Father in heaven. And the good news is that, even though some will not accept/advance as much as others who will have already accepted at least some celestial glory/intelligence, all will eventually be able to repent and become perfect/as our Father, eventually, as long as they will try to be better.

Just to throw in-

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. (D&C 76:106-107)

Sounds like all those who Christ saves from hell are perfected and spotless before judgment.

[Ahab]

I don't think that Christ was resurrected with a Telestial glory, nor do I find any indication that his resurrection was any different than the resurrection of the other saint who were resurrected at the same time he was.

I agree, knowing that he was the first of us who came here for our second estate.

I don't think that our resurrected bodies progress in glory starting as telestial and ending as celestial. It's a nice thought, but I don't see any scriptural or temple evidence of this progression on the other side of the mortal veil.

Words can be tricky. Our bodies are the embodiments for our spirits, and our spirits have bodies or are in bodies or are the embodiments of us or all that we are and even what we were before we were embodied... so to say our bodies do not or can not progress from glory to glory is not quite correct. We do or at least csn progress from glory to glory, or from levels or degrees of glory/intelligence, and we can refer to ourselves as either bodies, or spirits, or intelligences of any or every degree or level of glory/intelligence.

But I still fully believe that progression is eternal and those that say Terrestrial people will remain terrestrial for ever without end are not reading their scriptures and prophets correctly.

You got that right too.

[pogi]

But I still fully believe that progression is eternal and those that say Terrestrial people will remain terrestrial for ever without end are not reading their scriptures and prophets correctly.

 

This sounds awfully reminiscent of danielwoods approach over in the "can a Mormon be a Christian" thread.  He asserts that his interpretation is in fact the right one based on what the Bible says.  Well, we all read the same Bible and understand it differently even though we are reading the same words, so how can he assert that his is the only possible conclusion?  I ask the same of you.  I suggest that we keep an open mind where difference of opinion among the brethren abound. 

 

I think you can find all my beliefs in the teachings of Joseph and Brigham, at least allusions anyway.

 

 

"Allusions" or illusions?  Why would they make all of these allusions without just saying it. 

[The Nehor]

Just to throw in-

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. (D&C 76:106-107)

Sounds like all those who Christ saves from hell are perfected and spotless before judgment.

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

Prophecy fulfilled.

[Ahab]

Just to throw in-

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. (D&C 76:106-107)

Sounds like all those who Christ saves from hell are perfected and spotless before judgment.

There is a difference between the kingdom of God under Christ being spotless (and perfect) and every member in that kingdom being as perfect in glory/intelligence as our Father in heaven.

As the saying goes, the Church (or kingdom of God) is perfect but the people in it are not.

[JLHPROF]

"Allusions" or illusions?  Why would they make all of these allusions without just saying it. 

 

No, definitely allusions.  When Joseph taught that the "eternal punishment" of the wicked in the resurrection wasn't actually for eternity he was alluding to the fact that the wicked don't stay in "hell" for eternity but are able to progress out of hell.  Did he out and out say that?  Nope.  When Joseph taught that those who make it into the Celestial Kingdom are taught about higher kingdoms than Celestial he alluded to the idea that they would progress beyond the Celestial glory.  Did he say expressly say that?  Nope.

Same reason President Hinckley says "I don't know that we emphasize that".  Whenever Mormons stand up and look different then trouble follows.  Even the General Authorities don't agree on all doctrine.

I mean, Brigham Young dared to teach Adam-God and not even all the quorum of the 12 would agree with him.  So he snuck it in slowly - first with a discourse that starts "I propose to speak upon a subject that does not immediately concern yours or my welfare" and then eventually adding it to the temple endowment.  Joseph hinted at the possibility of the restoration of plural marriage and was forced to unpreach it in the afternoon, but eventually it became the standard practice and was publicly known.

 

Allusion followed by more direct information is always the way with the things of eternity.

[Rob Osborn]

There is a difference between the kingdom of God under Christ being spotless (and perfect) and every member in that kingdom being as perfect in glory/intelligence as our Father in heaven.

As the saying goes, the Church (or kingdom of God) is perfect but the people in it are not.

And yet the scriptures state that in order to be saved from the eternal hell we must be cleansed from all our sins.

[Ahab]

And yet the scriptures state that in order to be saved from the eternal hell we must be cleansed from all our sins.

Yes, and a person can be cleansed of sin but still not be as glorious/intelligent as our Father in heaven. You do realize heaven is segregated for people with various degrees of glory/intelligence, don't you?... and yet every region is a part of the one heaven.

[Rob Osborn]

Yes, and a person can be cleansed of sin but still not be as glorious/intelligent as our Father in heaven. You do realize heaven is segregated for people with various degrees of glory/intelligence, don't you?... and yet every region is a part of the one heaven.

Of course different souls will have different amount of glory but the main point is they are all cleansed and all live in the same kingdom on the same planet.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[Ahab]

Of course different souls will have different amount of glory but the main point is they are all cleansed and all live in the same kingdom on the same planet.

I'm not so sure about the "same planet" part but I agree with the rest of your statement. And as long as my life and home and more immediate family aren't going to be negatively affected or influenced by those with less intelligence/glory then I'm all fine with the idea that all in heaven will live on the same planet with me. I'd just like to have lots of nice land in a forest with a large clearing for farming with all of it looking out over the ocean.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I just want to be with my family, loved ones, friends, pets, and Heavenly Father and Jesus in heaven. As long as I have my company and am not alone, it will be a lovely eternity.

[Rob Osborn]

I'm not so sure about the "same planet" part but I agree with the rest of your statement. And as long as my life and home and more immediate family aren't going to be negatively affected or influenced by those with less intelligence/glory then I'm all fine with the idea that all in heaven will live on the same planet with me. I'd just like to have lots of nice land in a forest with a large clearing for farming with all of it looking out over the ocean.

I am curious to know what you make of the last few chapters of Revelations concerning the heavenly kingdom (New Jerusalem) where all the saved dwell and all are welcome within the city except for the sons of perdition. Sounds like one place for all the saved on the same planet to me. How do you interpret it?

[SamIam]

BRM's seven deadly heresies is his own opinions just as are mine. If only what we did on this life was the factor for glory, no one really would merit celestial glory. There must ne a means after this life to learn perfection before judgment. So, what is everyone doing n the earth during the millennium? Is this not when Christ is perfecting the kingdom to present to the Father spotless?

 

When the only standard of truth is your own opinion then there really is no potential for discussion that draws upon more eclectic sources.  No one has a chance of bringing forth any evidence vaild enough to supersede your own superior discernment.  However, within the bounds of scripture and prophetic commentary there is great room for consideration that you might at least give ear to that will lead to a more consistent understanding than is currently manifest.  Thanks for the interaction.

[SamIam]

No, definitely allusions.  When Joseph taught that the "eternal punishment" of the wicked in the resurrection wasn't actually for eternity he was alluding to the fact that the wicked don't stay in "hell" for eternity but are able to progress out of hell.  

 

Who are these wicked.  Have you defined what groups are included and excluded from that terminology and will you share your definitions?  In other words of these wicked what will be their ultimate final resting places. Also, what group is excluded from being classed with the wicked?

[Ahab]

I am curious to know what you make of the last few chapters of Revelations concerning the heavenly kingdom (New Jerusalem) where all the saved dwell and all are welcome within the city except for the sons of perdition. Sounds like one place for all the saved on the same planet to me. How do you interpret it?

Well, first of all, I'm not the "urban dweller" type so I won't be "living in" any city, not even the one called Jerusalem or New Jerusalem unless, as I like to think of the idea of "living in" some place, living in or dwelling someplace doesn't necessarily mean living there all of the time, although all people are living wherever they are or go. I'm sure I'll want to visit sometimes and have a nice place to live/stay while I am there, but l I will prefer to spend most of my time someplace nice out in the country, even if/when I have the highest degree of celestial intelligence/glory.

Secondly, there is nothing written there indicating that ALL of the saved will live there, and I think if you'd ponder some more about it, you see how that would be impossible unless you also adopt the same idea I have about what it means to live somewhere. Just imagine how many dwelling places it would take to accomodate everyone who visited, not to mention those who had their main abode there... unless maybe you're imagining that all who visited could go back and forth from their main home or somewhere else without wanting or needing to "stay" there.

And thirdly, unlike you, I believe this planet is at some point going to be restricted to only those with celestial intelligence/glory, with everyone who doesn't have/accept/live by that level of intelligence/glory living on some other planet or, possibly, living in some other dimension on this planet much like how spirits of the dead (and others) are now living here on this planet with us even though we usually don't see them. As I said, I could be wrong about that and I would even be okay to find out I am wrong as long as I know the less intelligent/glorious people aren't going to be mucking things up for those with more intelligence. But there would still need to be some other planets for all levels of glory, because there are always going to be more people and each one is going to want some nice place to live.

[Rob Osborn]

Well, first of all, I'm not the "urban dweller" type so I won't be "living in" any city, not even the one called Jerusalem or New Jerusalem unless, as I like to think of the idea of "living in" some place, living in or dwelling someplace doesn't necessarily mean living there all of the time, although all people are living wherever they are or go. I'm sure I'll want to visit sometimes and have a nice place to live/stay while I am there, but l I will prefer to spend most of my time someplace nice out in the country, even if/when I have the highest degree of celestial intelligence/glory.

Secondly, there is nothing written there indicating that ALL of the saved will live there, and I think if you'd ponder some more about it, you see how that would be impossible unless you also adopt the same idea I have about what it means to live somewhere. Just imagine how many dwelling places it would take to accomodate everyone who visited, not to mention those who had their main abode there... unless maybe you're imagining that all who visited could go back and forth from their main home or somewhere else without wanting or needing to "stay" there.

And thirdly, unlike you, I believe this planet is at some point going to be restricted to only those with celestial intelligence/glory, with everyone who doesn't have/accept/live by that level of intelligence/glory living on some other planet or, possibly, living in some other dimension on this planet much like how spirits of the dead (and others) are now living here on this planet with us even though we usually don't see them. As I said, I could be wrong about that and I would even be okay to find out I am wrong as long as I know the less intelligent/glorious people aren't going to be mucking things up for those with more intelligence. But there would still need to be some other planets for all levels of glory, because there are always going to be more people and each one is going to want some nice place to live.

I interpret the last few chapters of Revelation this way-

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15)

This is the judgment after the millennium. This is the great separation of the righteous from the wicked- the just and the unjust, the sheep and the goats, the wheat from the tares, those found on the right hand and those found on the left hand. Those who are found in the book of life are saved from the second death. Next few verses-

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death (Rev. 21:1-

This speaks of the earth when both the Lamb and God the Father will dwell on the earth where there shall be no more sorrow, no more death, etc. It speaks of two groups- those who overcome the sinful world and become sons and daughters of God and dwell with him and the other group left is all those who remained unrepentant who go into the second death. Next verses-

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life (Rev. 21:22-27)

"The nations of them which are saved" refers to all the saved not just some elite tiered group. Only those whose names are written in the book of life can have entrance to this celestial kingdom. We already know the fate of those whose names are not written in the book of life- they are the devil and his angels who go into the second death. So just whose names are written in the book of life? Only the celestial world inhabitants! This is the main point I bring up here and why Revelations speaks the truth for having only one planet for the saved to go, not three separate worlds of glory. This is the part where our gospel gets extremely confusing and contradictory when you start putting all the pieces in place. Our gospel doesnt teach how to live righteously and inherit any other place other than the celestial kingdom. Our gospel also doesnt teach that one can live in a glory of heaven stiil in some small degree of sin. Our gospel only teaches one simple thing- How to find the path leading to salvation in the celestial kingdom. There isnt a plan of obedience that leads one eternally to some other place. Revelations speaks a lot of the "book of life". This literally interprets to the book of those names who inherit "eternal life" through good works. We all are heirs already, its just that we can have our names blotted out through disobedience.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev. 3:5)

[Ahab]

I understand that that's how you interpret those passages and other passages of scripture, Rob, and I'm not going to get into this with you again, or at least not right now. As I've told you before, I believe everyone who has and lives by any degree of intelligence/glory is someone who is already saved and will be saved, and likely grow in glory/intelligence as long as he/she tries to be better and better and learn more about what he or she doesn't already know.

[Rob Osborn]

I understand that that's how you interpret those passages and other passages of scripture, Rob, and I'm not going to get into this with you again, or at least not right now. As I've told you before, I believe everyone who has and lives by any degree of intelligence/glory is someone who is already saved and will be saved, and likely grow in glory/intelligence as long as he/she tries to be better and better and learn more about what he or she doesn't already know.

I agree withwhat you say here. I just think that all the saved will be saved in celestial glory in the end. It doesnt make much sense to me to have three separate worlds of glory in the end where on the telestial world they never ever even see Christ or heavenly Father. I do believe that our plan of salvation is a plan where it only leads to one outcome- one place in eternity, not three.

[JLHPROF]

I agree withwhat you say here. I just think that all the saved will be saved in celestial glory in the end. It doesnt make much sense to me to have three separate worlds of glory in the end where on the telestial world they never ever even see Christ or heavenly Father. I do believe that our plan of salvation is a plan where it only leads to one outcome- one place in eternity, not three.

 

I just can't quite get there.  And it's an issue of mercy and time that prevents it.

If ALL beings will either be Celestial or destroyed/perdition by the end of the earth's temporal existence, I just don't see how there won't be an awful lot of honorable men of the earth who haven't managed to become Celestial but who certainly aren't perdition.

 

I think the idea of "achieve Celestialization by the end of the millennium or be destroyed" doesn't sound very much like God.

 

Although, I suppose if you are talking bare minimum to enter the Celestial:

1. Faith - believe in Christ.  Well, every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

2. Repentance - 1000 years to choose to enter God's kingdom or be destroyed.

3. Baptism - Plenty of time in the Millennium to allow everyone to receive baptism.

 

I suppose entering the Celestial isn't an issue of perfection, but just of acceptance.  IF this turns out to be the case then I can see your theory being valid.

I mean, AFTER the Millennium, who would enter the Terrestrial Kingdom?  Those who don't accept Christ - there won't be any.  Those who didn't get baptized - work for the dead will be complete.  Those who voluntarily choose not to repent - the wicked?

 

Your theory still bothers me, but I can see there is some truth in it.  If it was just a case of where we end up based on our lives here there would have to be more than Celestial and "hell".  But considering the Millennium and the minimum requirements for Celestial glory, perhaps that will be all that is necessary in the end.

[Rob Osborn]

I just can't quite get there. And it's an issue of mercy and time that prevents it.

If ALL beings will either be Celestial or destroyed/perdition by the end of the earth's temporal existence, I just don't see how there won't be an awful lot of honorable men of the earth who haven't managed to become Celestial but who certainly aren't perdition.

I think the idea of "achieve Celestialization by the end of the millennium or be destroyed" doesn't sound very much like God.

Although, I suppose if you are talking bare minimum to enter the Celestial:

1. Faith - believe in Christ. Well, every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

2. Repentance - 1000 years to choose to enter God's kingdom or be destroyed.

3. Baptism - Plenty of time in the Millennium to allow everyone to receive baptism.

I suppose entering the Celestial isn't an issue of perfection, but just of acceptance. IF this turns out to be the case then I can see your theory being valid.

I mean, AFTER the Millennium, who would enter the Terrestrial Kingdom? Those who don't accept Christ - there won't be any. Those who didn't get baptized - work for the dead will be complete. Those who voluntarily choose not to repent - the wicked?

Your theory still bothers me, but I can see there is some truth in it. If it was just a case of where we end up based on our lives here there would have to be more than Celestial and "hell". But considering the Millennium and the minimum requirements for Celestial glory, perhaps that will be all that is necessary in the end.

We are not that far apart in thinking. In fact we almost align in thought. It could very well be there is three glories, but that they all comingle together on the same planet. There really is no reason to separate them if they have all been cleansed through the atonement.