"anonymous Bishop" Blogs About Poverty

[Kenngo1969]

In 3rd world countries the Church buildings supply shelter from the storm, literally.

And even in "first-world countries"; see inter alia Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Sandy ....

[stemelbow]

This issue has been with us forever. Elder Holland gave a barn burner of a talk that is a lot more inspiring than this bishop who insults him for speaking up. Of course we should be desperately trying to help people!  But the should part is not the problem. The doing is. And what does this guy who won't even give his name do? Tells somebody else to do it while demeaning them.

 

Where are the suggestions of how to do it? Where to do it? Isn't that what holds most people back? It does me. I have searched out an organization I'm going to give money to until it hurts...it is so hard to trust them. But it still feels inadequate to just throw money at the problem...although it is one step above this guy throwing eggs.  As my sister who did go to another continent to start a foundation told me, it is the boots on the ground that are needed. It is the cooperation of those you are trying to help that is needed. There is so much more required than this brave guy ...who apparently thinks saving children is equivalent to driving to the grocery store in his comfy car to fill up someone's fridge ...has even dreamed of.

All good points. fair enough.

[bluebell]

Every single person I know has withheld some resources from helping the poor for selfish reasons. Thus, everyone should feel some guilt. That's not a bad thing.

I'm not feeling illegitimate guilt.

You would know.

[Rock_N_Roll]

Although, I think anon bishop does go “overboard” with many of his points, I do agree with some of them.  I live in an area where there are 5 LDS meeting houses within a 20 minute walk from my house.  Note that I said walk, not drive.  And I know of at least two places in Orem where there are two meeting houses adjacent to each other.  Not just near each other, the parking lots actually touch.  Could we consolidate buildings? Maybe build one large building instead of 3 smaller buildings?  I believe so, and I believe this would save money overall.  But meeting at members’ homes…I don’t see that as any kind of solution, especially in areas with high concentrations of LDS.

 

I’ve always had a bit of a problem with City Creek.  I realize the church wants to keep the areas around the temple from becoming blighted, but it obviously could have been done much more modestly.

As Financial Clerk, I see the good that Fast Offerings do.  I informed my bishop at one time that the money going out to needy families in our ward far exceeded the fast offerings collected for the month.  His reply was that it didn’t matter.  That the stake covered whatever the ward couldn’t, and the church in general covered what the stake could not.  I would like to see more of our tithing used to help the poor though.

 

It would also be nice to see more service done for the community.  When I was in the YM program, we tried to do a “service project” every few months.  Once both the YM and the YW had done service for the only widow in the Ward, there really wasn’t much we could do.  Community service projects were hard to get approved.

[Mystery Meat]

On the building issue:

 

I have a solution. In high LDS areas, it doesn't make sense to keep building (Herriman, South Jordan, Utah County, etc.). Yet we need places for new wards. Solution: eliminated Sunday School and move to a two hour block. You could put 3-4 wards in a building as opposed to 2-3. Plus Church would be less boring.

 

Or at least we would be bored for 2 hours instead of 3.

Edited December 4, 2014 by lvjd66

[Rock_N_Roll]

 eliminated Sunday School and move to a two hour block. You could put 3-4 wards in a building as opposed to 2-3. Plus Church would be less boring.

 

Or at least we would be bored for 2 hours instead of 3.

 

I'm all for this! Sunday School and Priesthood/RS are often redundant anyway. Or, have one large Sunday School, for all 3 of the wards in my building, held in the cultural hall. 

[Mystery Meat]

I'm all for this! Sunday School and Priesthood/RS are often redundant anyway. Or, have one large Sunday School, for all 3 of the wards in my building, held in the cultural hall. 

 

That is still three hours of church. Quorums and Relief Society hold a higher purpose I think, so I don't advocate getting rid of them. Have a 45 minute Priesthood/RS, 15 minutes for folks to find their seats and get reverent, then an hour long sacrament meeting (1-2 speakers, instead of the horrible 3 and pure evil 4 speaker meetings we sometimes get. Few things are worse than an over planned sacrament meeting). This gives more time for Sunday time with the family. 

 

Let's start a group. We can call it "Eliminate Sunday School."

[Calm]

I don't care if I can pick apart the blog or not. he raised an issue that means something to me. Some of what he said I agree with. I get the feeling he agrees with me, in that we should be desperately trying to help people.

But his focus was not on what he was trying to do himself like your comments were, but was on what he thought others should be doing and a particular 'other' which from what I read he hadn't even taken the time to educate himself on beyond his own limited experience.

[bluebell]

That is still three hours of church. Quorums and Relief Society hold a higher purpose I think, so I don't advocate getting rid of them. Have a 45 minute Priesthood/RS, 15 minutes for folks to find their seats and get reverent, then an hour long sacrament meeting (1-2 speakers, instead of the horrible 3 and pure evil 4 speaker meetings we sometimes get. Few things are worse than an over planned sacrament meeting). This gives more time for Sunday time with the family.

Let's start a group. We can call it "Eliminate Sunday School."

This made me laugh because I love sacrament meetings where there are 3-4 adult speakers and really don't like 2 speaker meetings at all.

I guess it just goes to show why someone always thinks things could be fixed at church-none of us agree on what the best fix is!

[Calm]

This issue has been with us forever. Elder Holland gave a barn burner of a talk that is a lot more inspiring than this bishop who insults him for speaking up. Of course we should be desperately trying to help people!  But the should part is not the problem. The doing is. And what does this guy who won't even give his name do? Tells somebody else to do it while demeaning them.

 

Where are the suggestions of how to do it? Where to do it? Isn't that what holds most people back? It does me. I have searched out an organization I'm going to give money to until it hurts...it is so hard to trust them. But it still feels inadequate to just throw money at the problem...although it is one step above this guy throwing eggs.  As my sister who did go to another continent to start a foundation told me, it is the boots on the ground that are needed. It is the cooperation of those you are trying to help that is needed. There is so much more required than this brave guy ...who apparently thinks saving children is equivalent to driving to the grocery store in his comfy car to fill up someone's fridge ...has even dreamed of.

Sharon Eubank, the head of LDS Charities said that money is not the issue, the money is there when needed but it is finding the right people to give it to so that it gets to those who need it that is the problem. see her Fairmormon talk. It was an aside....hmmm....maybe we can get her back to give a talk about what the Church is doing and how members can get involved.

An easy way of directly helping through the Church is to volunteer at the local Bishop's storehouse, husband and daughter went down the other day as this is a busy season and they were short on workers. They stocked the shelves, no training required but very helpful to speed up the experience for those waiting in line and to ensure they get what they need.

Working through established organizations worldwide decreases the likelihood that the money will go to people who will make things worse, not better, for those suffering.

I personally don't like the term "desperately" because it indicates a lack of control, a lack of thought because the feeling is overwhelming. Desperate people generally do stupid things and waste a lot of resources and energy doing them and often end up deeper in the pit they are trying to climb out of or end up in there with the other they are attempting to help climb out which may give the person some company, but does he or she feel better because someone else is now suffering with them?

I prefer the term "fervently" as it indicates a full level of devotion and commitment, a total focus of attention without the negative loss of control or inability to actually make an impact that "desperation" often carries along with it. If the point that is trying to be conveyed is the intensity, the level of caring I for one would rather have someone who was fervently trying to help me rather than desperately.

And while it is only words and may not seem matter as long as the idea is conveyed, surely it is important to convey the idea correctly. Is your preference in going to live among those who suffer a desire to help those who suffer to live a better life no matter how small a change that might be or is it just to go become another of the brotherhood of the poor and needy yourself? I think it is very important to make that distinction.

[Calm]

  Community service projects were hard to get approved.

Why?

[ERayR]

I don't care if I can pick apart the blog or not. he raised an issue that means something to me. Some of what he said I agree with. I get the feeling he agrees with me, in that we should be desperately trying to help people.

 

http://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services.html

 

This is just LDS Philanthropies (nearly 2 million)  That does not include what is being done by the Church Welfare system. (food, clothing and shelter)  This does not include the uncountable help given on the personal level.  It appears that the Church and its members are desperately trying to help people.

[ERayR]

Every single person I know has withheld some resources from helping the poor for selfish reasons. Thus, everyone should feel some guilt. That's not a bad thing.

I'm not feeling illegitimate guilt.

 

It depends on what you consider a selfish reason.  If you are doing all you can without depriving your family of necessities, you should have no guilt.  If you are not then perhaps your guilt is legitimate.  That is for you to decide for yourself and decide how you are going to address it.

[Mystery Meat]

This made me laugh because I love sacrament meetings where there are 3-4 adult speakers and really don't like 2 speaker meetings at all.

I guess it just goes to show why someone always thinks things could be fixed at church-none of us agree on what the best fix is!

 

4 speaker meetings really finish on time. 2 speakers wouldn't need to speak for more than 10 -15 minutes each like they  already do because the meeting would be 10 minutes shorter. Less is more.

[bluebell]

4 speaker meetings really finish on time. 2 speakers wouldn't need to speak for more than 10 -15 minutes each like they already do because the meeting would be 10 minutes shorter. Less is more.

We will have to agree to disagree.

[Kenngo1969]

... As Financial Clerk, I see the good that Fast Offerings do.  I informed my bishop at one time that the money going out to needy families in our ward far exceeded the fast offerings collected for the month.  His reply was that it didn’t matter.  That the stake covered whatever the ward couldn’t, and the church in general covered what the stake could not.  I would like to see more of our tithing used to help the poor though.

 

 

With due respect, maybe you do see that and you just don't realize it, though.  There is now a disclaimer on the "new" donation slip to the effect that, while every effort will be made to expend donations for the purpose for which they are donated (e.g., tithing funds will pay for tithing purposes, fast offering funds will pay for fast offering purposes, and so on), there is not a guarantee: once donated, those funds become the property of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for it to use in the accomplishment of its overall mission.

[Avatar4321]

I'm going to go ahead and clarify my feelings on that matter. I know most here will not like my feelings at all, but what can I say. We're all different and we're all a little inflicted with personal biases.I would rather live desperately for other people. I try in a sense, but not really. I live my life, often, hoping to help others most of which don't need my help. Others suffer all over this world and I feel like I can't do a thing about it. But I'm stuck. I have four young kids and want the most for them,and my wife. I go to work so I can have money to pay for our house and get health insurance. Life hits ya in so many ways. You just do it because you're supposed to. Then someone you love gets sick, stress settles in and makes you feel crazy. Nothing gets paid for and debt increases forever and ever. And your alone. Meanwhile your kids eat, have clothes, get educated and your desperately trying to survive rather than live for others. Every month I struggle to pay for our life. It's tiring and my wife is just as tired. Debts are so huge we can't even see the end of it. Each dollar we spend to eat out or to go on vacation is a waste. But we're told, we need a life. All I do is pay tithing then pay bills, it seems. Money doesn't mean anything. I give more than I am asked even if it means our debts only get bigger sometimes. Why? Because who cares? I'll die. If I don't I'll get shunned at Church anyway, which I pretty much am for my unorthodox views already.Most of my friends in the same income bracket look at us and think we're miserable. We don't live luxurious lives like they do. We can't because we have things forced upon us. But that's ok. Not even my concern. my concern is we're stuck. My great desire is to live for others desperately. I'd pack up and move to the most economically depressed place in this world, just so I don't feel so exalted by being in my cushy situation. At least I can dwell witht he lowest of the low. But I have a family. My wife won't hear of that, and I get that. My kids would be miserable, but someone's kids have to be. Even if I could get my family to buy in, we have more debt here then is imaginable, in some cases put upon. And we owe more than the house is worth just for our mortgage. Our savings, as it was one day, is gone, depleted to nothing and we have no chance for recovery anyway. We're one bill away from going bankrupt, and with kids any moment something could happen sinking us.But at least the Church is in good financial health. At least it gets my money so more temples are built, which is a good thing, at what seems to be top dollar expense.I don't know there's a lot more that the Church can do. it does seem plausible to cut out so many of the expenses and just focus the income that church gets on giving to others. I'd bet dollars to donuts such a huge shift would be far more productive in terms of attracting people then sending out missionaries, and for crying aloud, giving desperately would totally make the historic issues seem so irrelevant. I feel strongly that is the case. I can't do a thing, I realize that. I'm stuck. But I would love to be a part of something that can do a thing. Call me apostate. Whine about how I'm evil for wanting to steady the ark. I don't care. That's my feelings on that matter. I won't be obnoxious about it, very few know my feelings on that matter. I don't know that what I'd like to see is possible. But I'll continue to hope and pray.We may not do away with poverty or starvation, but we can desperately try. Seems reasonable to me.

we haven't been called to act desperately in anything. But to act in wisdom and prudence in all things. How does acting desperately act in wisdom or in faith?

and what is preventing you from acting desperately as you put it?

[Avatar4321]

Also I don't see how renting saves us money over owning property. I don't see how a regular monthly liability and dependence on other for a meeting place is better than providing our own place where payments last until the hiding is paid off and which becomes an asset we can collect rent on if needs be.

it's much better to have assets than liabilities

[Calm]

We have four speaker meetings that finish promptly. I think a good ES who reminds each speaker how much time they have can help and if they are reminded as well that teachers need the time for lessons, etc. that the ward can develop good habits that way. And a stake pres. who rides herd on his HCmen can help as well.

Edited December 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[pogi]

We have four speaker meetings that finish promptly. I think a good ES who reminds each speaker how much time they have can help and if they are reminded as well that teachers need the time for lessons, etc. that the ward can develop good habits that way.

 

That's interesting, our ward assigns 4 speakers (2 couples) every single week that I have been here.  Without fail, the last speaker begins his talk at around 3:55 when the closing hymn should begin (perhaps our ES is not as good as yours).  The last speaker NEVER gets to finish their talk that they have spent much time preparing.  I also think 5-10 minutes is just enough time to get warmed up.  Most people spend almost 5 minutes introducing themselves, leaving almost no time to develop a really interesting talk.  The only way that I can see 4 speakers working is if two of them are youth speakers who usually get up and sit down within 5 minutes.  We don't have much youth in our ward though.

[Rock_N_Roll]

With due respect, maybe you do see that and you just don't realize it, though.  There is now a disclaimer on the "new" donation slip to the effect that, while every effort will be made to expend donations for the purpose for which they are donated (e.g., tithing funds will pay for tithing purposes, fast offering funds will pay for fast offering purposes, and so on), there is not a guarantee: once donated, those funds become the property of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for it to use in the accomplishment of its overall mission.

 

Ya, that is what I meant, actually.  I DO see the good it does.  At least in my ward.  A lot of deserving people have been helped. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Rock_N_Roll

[MorningStar]

We need church buildings.  How do you split up into various classes, primary, etc. in someone's home? 

[rockpond]

Can you be faithful to God and at the same time not have faith in the prophets he sends?

 

 

Does having faith in the prophets require that we never question anything?

[rockpond]

I think you are right. But I don't think likes on FB mean much. If they do, Mormon Women Stand has more likes than all of these groups put together.

 

Yeah, FB likes are obviously not a scientific measure but they do serve as an indicator.  And yes, I would absolutely expect Mormon Women Stand to vastly outnumber the other groups given how the women I know feel about OW.  MWS is approaching 33,000 likes.

[rockpond]

Nothing you said in this post constitutes steadying the ark though.

 

Whew!