"anonymous Bishop" Blogs About Poverty

[Rain]

Yeah, FB likes are obviously not a scientific measure but they do serve as an indicator. And yes, I would absolutely expect Mormon Women Stand to vastly outnumber the other groups given how the women I know feel about OW. MWS is approaching 33,000 likes.

An indicator of what though? Some of those likes could be there from people who don't actually like the page, but want to be informed. Some may be family members who are concerned about family who actually do like the page. Some may be there from curious nonmembers. Obviously there is interest in that many likes, but we just can't tell why the interest is there.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Rain

[Rain]

There is a new program called JustServe where the missionaries take part in more service.

As the JustServe specialist in my stake who is currently training the wards in the stake about Just Serve I would like to clarify this.

Just Serve isn't a program and it isn't just for missionaries. It is a tool or resource to help charities find volunteers and volunteers find places to serve. It is in a pilot phase right now.

It can be a great tool for the missionaries because many will be able to find service opportunities in the day time when they are struggling to find people home to teach. They will wear name tags and can answer questions, but this is not to be a proselyting thing. It is specifically geared to help the poor and needy.

But it can also be great for scouts looking for eagle projects, YW with personal progress, families wanting to serve together, RS wanting activities etc.

Not only that, but anyone is welcome to volunteer through it, member or not.

The first phase is to contact organizations in the area who need help - this is done first so volunteers actually find something when they register. The second is to train members to use it. So when the site gets populated with charities in your area it will be introduced to your wards and stakes.

There is a third phase, but since, here, we are currently completing phase one and beginning phase 2 I am not sure just how it will work.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Rain

[bluebell]

As the JustServe specialist in my stake who is currently training the wards in the stake about Just Serve I would like to clarify this.

Just Serve isn't a program and it isn't just for missionaries. It is a tool or resource to help charities find volunteers and volunteers find places to serve. It is in a pilot phase right now.

It can be a great tool for the missionaries because many will be able to find service opportunities in the day time when they are struggling to find people home to teach. They will wear name tags and can answer questions, but this is not to be a proselyting thing. It is specifically geared to help the poor and needy.

But it can also be great for scouts looking for eagle projects, YW with personal progress, families wanting to serve together, RS wanting activities etc.

Not only that, but anyone is welcome to volunteer through it, member or not.

The first phase is to contact organizations in the area who need help - this is done first so volunteers actually find something when they register. The second is to train members to use it. So when the site gets populated with charities in your area it will be introduced to your wards and stakes.

There is a third phase, but since, here, we are currently completing phase one and beginning phase 2 I am not sure just how it will work.

That is awesome.

Every year for Christmas everyone in my family has to do some kind of service and then we each share what we did on Christmas Eve. Sometimes it is difficult though to find service to do.

Already this year I have emailed (their preferred form of communication) about 8 different places offering to volunteer and I haven't heard back from any of them.

I would love to find something that I could continue to do the whole year.

[ksfisher]

Does having faith in the prophets require that we never question anything?

Calling the brethren "anti-christ" is going a little further than just questioning.

[rockpond]

Calling the brethren "anti-christ" is going a little further than just questioning.

 

I assume this is the quote you are referring to... where he referred to their general message not to them:  "I have come to the conclusion that their general message is Anti-Christ and promotes idolatry, and the worship of men."

 

Point taken.  He does not seem to have faith in the Brethren.  But I still have not reason to question his faith in God.  He just doesn't believe that the current prophets/seers/revelators are communicating the message from God.

[rockpond]

An indicator of what though? Some of those likes could be there from people who don't actually like the page, but want to be informed. Some may be family members who are concerned about family who actually do like the page. Some may be there from curious nonmembers. Obviously there is interest in that many likes, but we just can't tell why the interest is there.

 

As you said... an indicator of "interest".

[rockpond]

As the JustServe specialist in my stake who is currently training the wards in the stake about Just Serve I would like to clarify this.

Just Serve isn't a program and it isn't just for missionaries. It is a tool or resource to help charities find volunteers and volunteers find places to serve. It is in a pilot phase right now.

It can be a great tool for the missionaries because many will be able to find service opportunities in the day time when they are struggling to find people home to teach. They will wear name tags and can answer questions, but this is not to be a proselyting thing. It is specifically geared to help the poor and needy.

But it can also be great for scouts looking for eagle projects, YW with personal progress, families wanting to serve together, RS wanting activities etc.

Not only that, but anyone is welcome to volunteer through it, member or not.

The first phase is to contact organizations in the area who need help - this is done first so volunteers actually find something when they register. The second is to train members to use it. So when the site gets populated with charities in your area it will be introduced to your wards and stakes.

There is a third phase, but since, here, we are currently completing phase one and beginning phase 2 I am not sure just how it will work.

 

I am so excited to read this.  I was aware of the JustServe website but it doesn't have anything listed for my area and I wasn't entirely sure how to get some traction there.  But maybe we can call a JustServe specialist in our ward.  That would be great!

[ksfisher]

Point taken.  He does not seem to have faith in the Brethren.  But I still have not reason to question his faith in God.  He just doesn't believe that the current prophets/seers/revelators are communicating the message from God.

 

Which is my original question.  Can one have faith in God but not accepts the servants he sends?

 

I imagine there are many ways one could answer this question, and I wouldn't want to ever try to judge the faith of others, but I'm having a difficult time understanding how one could have faith in God and at the same time reject his prophets.  Perhaps there are just too many beams in my own eye to be able to understand this.  To me this is a basic principle of the gospel: there is a God and that God send prophets to teach his children and lead them back to him.  To reject one would seem to be to reject the other.

[Tacenda]

I'll never forget the years I served in a RS Presidency with a RS president that was so service oriented!  And not just inside our ward but outside too.  It was at the beginning of my FC (faith crisis) and she helped me stay on my feet.  First, we did the typical thing tied over 50 quilts, then we put in many hours of service at the St. Ann's Center that is a shelter in Ogden.  We would go there weekly.  We donated hygiene kits, organized their premises.  Separated clothing donations and hung on hangers.  The workers there were overwhelmed and couldn't keep up with all the donations.  It was such a humbling experience.  Then at Christmas time we involved the whole ward on a sub for Santa.  Everyone in the ward bought gifts for those families that were staying in the shelter.  And our wonderful bishop was on board with everything!!  Then another time I headed up an Angel Tree at our Christmas Ward Party.  We got our families from the Bountiful Food Pantry.  It was marvelous, the tree was empty and every Angel taken care of.  Families in our ward were able to deliver their presents or I would.  What a year, and it sustained me in keeping afoot in the church.  I love our LDS members, I truly do!

[rockpond]

Which is my original question.  Can one have faith in God but not accepts the servants he sends?

 

I imagine there are many ways one could answer this question, and I wouldn't want to ever try to judge the faith of others, but I'm having a difficult time understanding how one could have faith in God and at the same time reject his prophets.  Perhaps there are just too many beams in my own eye to be able to understand this.  To me this is a basic principle of the gospel: there is a God and that God send prophets to teach his children and lead them back to him.  To reject one would seem to be to reject the other.

 

My answer to that is a qualified yes.  In this case it seems that the anonymous bishop has faith in God but does not believe that the current prophet/apostles are communicating/following God's message.  

 

I know plenty of people with strong faith in God but who are not members of the church and therefore utterly reject our prophetic claim.  But I don't question their faithfulness to God.

[ksfisher]

My answer to that is a qualified yes.  In this case it seems that the anonymous bishop has faith in God but does not believe that the current prophet/apostles are communicating/following God's message.  

 

I know plenty of people with strong faith in God but who are not members of the church and therefore utterly reject our prophetic claim.  But I don't question their faithfulness to God.

 

He may have a faith in God, but he doesn't seem to have faith in God's ability to send prophets to speak for him. 

[rockpond]

He may have a faith in God, but he doesn't seem to have faith in God's ability to send prophets to speak for him. 

 

I think you are making some unjustified extrapolations.  The "bishop" may believe in God's ability to send prophets.  He might just believe that the current group has derailed.

[JDave]

Regardless of his degree of faith in the church or its leaders, his rhetoric is pretty inflammatory.  He should study a way to make real change happen, and then pitch that to church leaders.  Be the change you want to see, make it happen.  If he has faith that this is God's church, then tearing it down seems a lousy way of accomplishing the goal of helping poor people.

[Mystery Meat]

My answer to that is a qualified yes.  In this case it seems that the anonymous bishop has faith in God but does not believe that the current prophet/apostles are communicating/following God's message.  

 

I know plenty of people with strong faith in God but who are not members of the church and therefore utterly reject our prophetic claim.  But I don't question their faithfulness to God.

 

I agree that it is possible to have great faith in God without having faith in a particular person as a prophet. However, I also believe that if there is a living prophet and an individual does not have faith that that person is not a prophet, than that person's faith in God is not as complete as it could be. If that makes sense.

[rockpond]

Regardless of his degree of faith in the church or its leaders, his rhetoric is pretty inflammatory.  He should study a way to make real change happen, and then pitch that to church leaders.  Be the change you want to see, make it happen.  If he has faith that this is God's church, then tearing it down seems a lousy way of accomplishing the goal of helping poor people.

 

I think he is trying to be the change he wants to see.  That's what he says in his intro.  Sharing ideas through written word has long been considered a way to promote change.  We all know that communicating directly to the Brethren is dang near impossible unless you rise to a prominent enough position.

 

What would you suggest her do to make real change happen... all other efforts that I've seen in recent years are equally attacked as heretical here on these boards.

[rockpond]

I agree that it is possible to have great faith in God without having faith in a particular person as a prophet. However, I also believe that if there is a living prophet and an individual does not have faith that that person is not a prophet, than that person's faith in God is not as complete as it could be. If that makes sense.

 

Yes, absolutely, assuming your caveat there is correct.  Otherwise you are just requiring that someone else's faith in God matches your faith in God to be complete.

[Kenngo1969]

We need church buildings.  How do you split up into various classes, primary, etc. in someone's home? 

"OK.  Sunbeams, meet in the bathroom!"

 

(What?  Oh.  Sorry;  Couldn't resist! )

[Kenngo1969]

Ya, that is what I meant, actually.  I DO see the good it does.  At least in my ward.  A lot of deserving people have been helped. 

Fair 'nough!

[JDave]

I think he is trying to be the change he wants to see.  That's what he says in his intro.  Sharing ideas through written word has long been considered a way to promote change.  We all know that communicating directly to the Brethren is dang near impossible unless you rise to a prominent enough position.

 

What would you suggest her do to make real change happen... all other efforts that I've seen in recent years are equally attacked as heretical here on these boards.

If tearing down the church is the change he wants to see, then I agree.  If he really wants to help poor people I just can't see it.

[rockpond]

If tearing down the church is the change he wants to see, then I agree.  If he really wants to help poor people I just can't see it.

 

If the goal is to alter the way the church is administering its resources then how would you suggest facilitating that change?

[JDave]

If the goal is to alter the way the church is administering its resources then how would you suggest facilitating that change?

This sounds (along with your other posts as well) like you think his rhetoric and demonizing of church leaders is an acceptable way of facilitating that change.  We can't question his faith in God, and surely he cares about poor people, so that means that the rest is acceptable?  What exactly about his method do you approve of and is there anything you disapprove?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If the goal is to alter the way the church is administering its resources then how would you suggest facilitating that change?

Is there a problem with the way it is doing it now? Has that idea even been fleshed out? Probably should start there before you try to fix a machine that is not broken.

[rockpond]

This sounds (along with your other posts as well) like you think his rhetoric and demonizing of church leaders is an acceptable way of facilitating that change.  We can't question his faith in God, and surely he cares about poor people, so that means that the rest is acceptable?  What exactly about his method do you approve of and is there anything you disapprove?

 

I don't like everything about his post.  I've said that repeatedly here.  So I'm not trying to defend him.  But I think questioning his faith in God is unfair.

 

I approve of writing about things that concern you.  It should be done in a respectful way and whether or not he has been completely respectful is debatable.

 

I could go line by line through his essay and tell you where I approve or disapprove but I don't really see the point.  This thread isn't about me.  It shouldn't be about him.  I'd rather it be about the ideas he expresses.  But it seems most here would rather just cast him as a heretic rather than engage the ideas.

[rockpond]

Is there a problem with the way it is doing it now? Has that idea even been fleshed out? Probably should start there before you try to fix a machine that is not broken.

 

I think there is a problem with the way the church is currently administering its resources.  This "bishop" does as well.  I'm disturbed by the amount of money we spend on some things when those funds could be used to alleviate suffering.

 

You don't believe that it's broken.  But for those of us who do... publicly sharing/discussing it is about the extent of our influential capabilities.

[juliann]

I think there is a problem with the way the church is currently administering its resources.  This "bishop" does as well.  I'm disturbed by the amount of money we spend on some things when those funds could be used to alleviate suffering.

 

You don't believe that it's broken.  But for those of us who do... publicly sharing/discussing it is about the extent of our influential capabilities.

But shouldn't there be at least some minimal data given before coming to such a conclusion? Some recognition that we probably have little idea of what the church is doing? I learned some of that in Sis. Eubank's FairMormon talk. Might it be more of we can do more than it is "broken?" 

 

The "why don't they" approach reminds me too much of the political battles over government. I would suggest that complaining online is not a substitute for putting on those boots and doing something. There is always something. And that is much more important because it changes us from the inside out.

 

The talk I see as important is the talk in church. If people move to people getting hand outs type talk at church, we now have Elder Holland's no nonsense talk to shut it down. Everybody needs to be armed with that. Members don't mean to demean the poor but some expect those who have never had the advantages they take for granted to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. It is the language that is hurting us. We have to have the appropriate language before behavior is going to change. Simply adding more demonizing is feeding into that problem.