Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Polygamy Is Not The Issue. The Devil Is In The Details

DBMormon

By DBMormon
in General Discussions

Recommended Posts

Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted

It is impossible for me to accurately evaluate the mindset of people in the early 1800´s. Equally so, to have any insight into the mindset of those from the old testament, except the records kept by those people themselves. But the stories of Abraham were not written by Abraham. Jacob´s stories weren´t written by Jacob. And the books of Moses weren´t written down until long after the time of Moses, and if Moses did actually author them, then he was used to streeeeeeeetching the truth. The bible records King David´s immorality with Bathsheba and tells how David arranged for Uriah´s death/murder, so I´m not inclined to think of his concubines as being blessed of the lord.

Of course both Bible and Book of Mormon condemn the immorality of David and Solomon, but not because they practice polygamy.  On the one hand, the Prophet Nathan condemns David for adultery and murder, and on the other hand the vast harems of David & Solomon turn their heads from righteousness.  This is far different than the few wives and concubines of Abraham, Jacob, and Moses, who are never condemned for it, but rather are blessed covenantal figures.

 

The Book of Mormon is clear in its condemnation of polygamy.

Not so.  Jacob 2:27,30,34, 3:5 make it clear that polygamy is only to be practiced on the order of the Lord.  Which means that it is an acceptable practice when authorized.

 

Did people in the early 1800´s view immorality with a wide margin of tolerance? Did they view unfaithfulness as "acceptable". Well, Cowdery obviously didn´t. And I could care less if my views on the issue are "presentist". I have no intention of having multiple wives. I find the concept repulsive. I have no intention of taking a teenage wife (I am 69 years old).....and not rich (lol). And Hefner isn´t a hero of mine.

Well, I largely agree.  Hugh Nibley is my hero, not Hugh Hefner.  You are younger than me, but I agree that no young bride is in the offing for either of us.  However, that is not the issue.  The issue is whether 14 year old marriage was acceptable in the 19th century, or indeed among our viking ancestors (I have some Danish ancestors).  Moreover, despite what we in the 21st century might prefer, anthropologists point out that polygamy was quite common anciently (and legal in ancient Egypt).  These are facts which we must bear in mind when passing judgment on our forebears.

 

TThere are many things in the old testament that do not apply today (collecting foreskins from defeated, etc) but the 10 commandments, no killing, no adultery, seem good enough for me.

Most modern people agree, do they not?

stemelbow Grand Master

stemelbow

Posted
Posted

I thought we were discussing marriage of 14 year old girls in the 19th century.  Are you going to give us the lastest Field poll to show what Joseph's contermporares actually thought, or are you simply going to continue to claim presentism as your base?

 

A hint:  Most of these early marriage laws were done away with in the mid to late 20th century.  Might that not be indicative of changed public opinion?

We are. Somehow I just got accused of making an extreme claim by saying it was odd and uncomfortable to people in 1840 for a 35 year old man to marry many wives, which included a 14 year old, among other teenagers.

if it wasn't so odd, and if it wasn't so uncomfortable, why the secrecy about it? Where are all the other examples of it happening, well outside of the Mormon folks?

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

I understand your faithfulness to keeping Joseph untarnished and I even understand placing blame on the doubter or questioner. But don't understand the dismissal of the easy answers to why Joseph hasn't had verified offspring from these marriages. In their times, there was something called birth control through natural means, I can think of two right off the top of my head. And one is not abortion whatsoever. Joseph was not open with his polygamy at first, and denied it. It wouldn't look good if women were pregnant with his children. Plus it may not have been about righteous seed being born at all, which is the one way that makes polygamy ok, or the so called Law of Sarah. If JS married older women especially.

Church historian, Richard Turville mentions on the radio program, that the church is not saying there was no sex involved at all, because it was a marriage, and there was romance. And as an aside Richard showed some embarrassment over someone's input that Helen's age was a few months before age 15, I guess it wasn't his idea. Ane he also mentions that a lot more info will come out in the Joseph Smith's Papers project.

For 180+ years they have not found any DNA evidence, and no I am not trying to protect him...and many have been looking for DNA evidence, so if some has been found I would like a CFR...and the ones who were true wives, why would he need to practice natural birth control. Please do not try to read my mind, or get inside it...it is too crowded already. In fact I never suggested that some were not true polygamist wives. I know you have spoken of your disenchantment of the Church many times, but this does make the rest of us liars and uninformed. I would be grateful if you did not question my motives. Waiting for the CFR. Please.
Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

For 180+ years they have not found any DNA evidence, and no I am not trying to protect him...and many have been looking for DNA evidence, so if some has been found I would like a CFR...and the ones who were true wives, why would he need to practice natural birth control. Please do not try to read my mind, or get inside it...it is too crowded already. In fact I never suggested that some were not true polygamist wives. I know you have spoken of your disenchantment of the Church many times, but this does make the rest of us liars and uninformed. I would be grateful if you did not question my motives. Waiting for the CFR. Please.

Please quote me saying there is evidence of DNA in my post, I said no such thing. But IMO, he did father some. They've only tested the male lines, but don't quote me on that. Didn't mean to get in your head PaPa.
Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

Please quote me saying there is evidence of DNA in my post, I said no such thing. But IMO, he did father some. They've only tested the male lines, but don't quote me on that. Didn't mean to get in your head PaPa.

Every single who claimed to be his offspring, and many groups have investigated in an attempt to prove that they were the offspring. In a lot of people's opinion he fathered children and all have been proven wrong...once DNA was able to be used many have claimed to be descendants of his...all were wrong. When making such charges, opinion means nothing and is used to state what critics "hope" are fact to satisfy there need to justify their issues with the Church. I get it, they want desperately to justify their apostasy. Any port in a storm.
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

Of course both Bible and Book of Mormon condemn the immorality of David and Solomon, but not because they practice polygamy.  On the one hand, the Prophet Nathan condemns David for adultery and murder, and on the other hand the vast harems of David & Solomon turn their heads from righteousness.  This is far different than the few wives and concubines of Abraham, Jacob, and Moses, who are never condemned for it, but rather are blessed covenantal figures.

I am sure Leah was honored at the shock her husband felt the morning after their wedding day when he woke up expecting her sister to be in his arms. And how has this not been made into a movie????

I am sure Hagar was thrilled to move from the high reaches of pharaoh's court to becoming a second wife and then exiled cause her son had issues.

The stories of these blessed covenant people does give me hope. If people that messed up can make it there is hope for me. Polygamy is hard, it is sometimes commanded, and can be lived righteously but it is difficult for all parties.

1
Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted (edited)

Please quote me saying there is evidence of DNA in my post, I said no such thing. But IMO, he did father some. They've only tested the male lines, but don't quote me on that. Didn't mean to get in your head PaPa.

Only the male lines...since we are talking about polygamy only the females matter as men cannot bare children. So I will not quote you on it. Wow. Edited by Pa Pa
3DOP Grand Master

3DOP

Posted
Posted (edited)

I would point out that King David was condemned for adultery and murder, but as it reads, it appears that God fully approved of the number of wives he had. Following is the prophet Nathan telling him how God had blessed him only to be repaid with David's crimes: "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: I anointed the king over Israel, and I delivered thee from the hand of Saul, And gave thee thy master's house and thy master's wives into thy bosom." (2 Sam. 12:7)

 

I have never understood how anyone can think Mormon polygamy is a big problem. You will have to abandon Christianity altogether if you will get away from polygamy. All Christians have to deal with polygamy because we accept Scriptures which described the patriarchs and kings of Israel as polygamists. How is the polygamy of David and Solomon, who are also attributed with authorship of Scripture, different from that of Joseph Smith? 

 

I disagree with LDS polygamy, but only because as a Catholic, I first deny that Joseph Smith was a prophet of the Restoration. Polygamy itself is not necessarily inconsistent with a new dispensation of the will of God. If it were ever to appear again, it seems like it would be fitting and necessary that it would be in an era of new revelation such as Mormonism proposes.  

Edited by 3DOP
2
omni Mentor

omni

Posted
Posted

Non Sequitur.

Not at all. You used legality as justification for an action being moral. Why not apply that same standard to another action pertaining to morality.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

I would point out that King David was condemned for adultery and murder, but as it reads, it appears that God fully approved of the number of wives he had. Following is the prophet Nathan telling him how God had blessed him only to be repaid with David's crimes: "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: I anointed the king over Israel, and I delivered thee from the hand of Saul, And gave thee thy master's house and thy master's wives into thy bosom." (2 Sam. 12:7)

I have never understood how anyone can think Mormon polygamy is a big problem. You will have to abandon Christianity altogether if you will get away from polygamy. All Christians have to deal with polygamy because we accept Scriptures which described the patriarchs and kings of Israel as polygamists. How is the polygamy of David and Solomon, who are also attributed with authorship of Scripture, different from that of Joseph Smith?

I disagree with LDS polygamy, but only because as a Catholic, I first deny that Joseph Smith was a prophet of the Restoration. Polygamy itself is not necessarily inconsistent with a new dispensation of the will of God. If it were ever to appear again, it seems like it would be fitting and necessary that it would be in an era of new revelation such as Mormonism proposes.

The LDS say they believe the Bible to be true only as far as it is translated correctly. What if the particular scripture you quoted was translated incorrectly. Since God seems to condemn it elsewhere in the Bible.
Brian 2.0 Veteran

Brian 2.0

Posted
Posted

For 180+ years they have not found any DNA evidence, and no I am not trying to protect him...and many have been looking for DNA evidence, so if some has been found I would like a CFR...and the ones who were true wives, why would he need to practice natural birth control.

A lack of children is not rock solid evidence for lack of sex. And Tacenda already provided a few reasons why JS may not want to be having children with his polygamous wives.

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted

I honestly expect that at the Second Coming Joseph Smith will descend with all the other saints and ask us why we have such a fixation with his sex life.

 

I honestly expect he will descend with his "train" of wives as will the Savior with his "train" of wives and ask us why we couldn't figure out how to accept polygamy.  They managed it and they are our role models.

1
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

I honestly expect he will descend with his "train" of wives as will the Savior with his "train" of wives and ask us why we couldn't figure out how to accept polygamy.  They managed it and they are our role models.

 

Actually just Jesus is our real role model and we have no idea if he has a "train" of wives or not.

JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted

Actually just Jesus is our real role model and we have no idea if he has a "train" of wives or not.

 

Yeah, sure, uh-huh.  I am as sure that Christ was a polygamist as I am that Joseph Smith was.  At least based on the evidence at hand.

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

A lack of children is not rock solid evidence for lack of sex. And Tacenda already provided a few reasons why JS may not want to be having children with his polygamous wives.

If he had relation with the 34 to 40 women he was sealed too. And the only pregnancies where with Emma what are the odds...greater than winning the lottery without playing...just silly is what it is, more like impossible!
The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted

Yeah, sure, uh-huh.  I am as sure that Christ was a polygamist as I am that Joseph Smith was.  At least based on the evidence at hand.

 

The only evidence for Jesus being a polygamist in his mortal life (or even married at all) comes from guesses at scriptural meanings and a few statements by apostles a long time ago defending polygamy that have not been repeated since by those empowered to declare doctrine.

 

For Joseph we have many people outright saying he was a polygamist, records of people he was sealed to, and letters regarding it.

 

I am curious how you possibly equate these two stacks of evidence.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted (edited)

Where does he condemn polygamy in the Bible?

I like what this article has to say about it.

 

http://rcg.org/articles/ttap.html

 

The Truth About Polygamy

by David C. Pack The Bible does not condone polygamy. It was not permitted in the Old Testament, and was, in fact, prohibited from the beginning. God’s Old Testament servants did not follow this practice. You will be surprised at the plain facts from God’s Word!

 

ETA:  I'm not joining this guy's ministry by all means, too hard to leave my heritage, if you want to call it that.  

Edited by Tacenda
theplains Grand Master

theplains

Posted
Posted

My wife takes the exact same approach.  For her no matter how "bad" the behavior of a prophet would be there is no point where she sees it affecting her salvation and simply chooses not to let it affect her testimony. 

 

I am not aware of any person who ever followed a false prophet to the death and then gained eternal

life.

 

Regards,

Jim

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

Only the male lines...since we are talking about polygamy only the females matter as men cannot bare children. So I will not quote you on it. Wow.

 

Pa Pa, I have a great lack of ability sometimes when communicating.  Please read through and notice the bold.  If it makes better sense. 

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695226318/DNA-tests-rule-out-2-as-Smith-descendants.html?pg=all

 

After more than a century of speculation about whether LDS Church founder Joseph Smith had children with any of his plural wives, a local geneticist said he recently has crossed two such purported descendants off the list of potential candidates.

Ugo Perego, director of operations at the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, told the Deseret Morning News that technological advances in DNA testing during the past couple of years have helped prove with "99.9 percent certainty" that two early Latter-day Saints thought by some to be Smith's children are not his descendants. They are:

 

• Mosiah Hancock, son of Clarissa Reed Hancock, who was married to Levi Hancock.

• Oliver Buell, son of Prescindia Huntington Buell, who was married to Norman Buell.

 

Perego said that brings to five the number of people that some believed were Smith descendants whose paternal DNA does not match up with his. To date, at least seven other early Latter-day Saints have been identified in various historical documents or in later writings as potential Smith offspring, he said.

In 2005, Perego said DNA testing also ruled out three other alleged male descendants — Moroni Llewellyn Pratt (son of Mary Ann Frost Pratt, married to Parley P. Pratt), Zebulon Jacobs (son of Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith, married to Henry Bailey Jacobs) and Orrison Smith (son of Fanny Alger).

Some candidates are surrounded by what he called "strong historical evidences like journal entries," while other alleged descendants have little historical basis to be related, other than "speculation based on conclusions that sometimes may have been too rushed," Perego said.

In Hancock's case, "historically, there is nothing about him. In fact, another son of Levi Hancock is more in question, named John Reed Hancock." Mid-20th century historian and author Fawn Brodie, in her book "No Man Knows My History," had "quite a lot about John Reed Hancock," he said.

Brodie also believed Buell was Smith's child, born during the early church's days in Far West, Mo., he said. "She goes quite far to explain why she thought this was the case. The time was perfect because (Prescindia's) husband was gone from the church, and there was a plural marriage that took place while he was gone."

Brodie also offered as evidence a photo of Buell resembling two of Joseph and Emma Smith's sons, writing that his "physiognomy ... seems to weigh the balance overwhelmingly on the side of Joseph's paternity."

Historians say Smith was married to as many as 30 women before he was killed by a mob in June 1844.

Perego also has gathered DNA samples on about 120 descendants of Josephine Rosetta Lyon, daughter of Sylvia Sessions Lyon, who was one of Smith's wives. But Y chromosome evidence, used to determine paternal relationships from father to son, is not present for Lyon because she is female. The effort to determine Lyon's parentage is ongoing, he said.

His most recent findings were presented as a paper at the annual John Whitmer Historical Association conference in Kirtland, Ohio, in late September. The group's officers since have asked Perego to put his presentation into an article format suitable for publication in their next annual journal.

The list of approximately 12 people alleged to have been Smith's children "may grow over time," Perego said, noting historical documents continue to surface. "I'm not saying the list I have is definitive or complete at all. But out of those we have data for, there is no evidence from DNA at this point that Joseph Smith had any children from women other than Emma Smith.

"In the future, if DNA data will be able to be collected and tested, we might know otherwise. But right now, we're able to eliminate five children from that list. There may be some cases we might never be able to test at all."

While Y chromosome DNA is passed from father to son and is most accurate in identifying living people, mitochondrial DNA is passed from mother to daughter and is more often used in paleontology and archaeology, Perego said. As a result, there are distinct limitations on the testing that can be done to date because such testing on a living — and cooperative — male descendant requires an unbroken male line.

Perego has mapped Smith's DNA by retrieving samples from living descendants of two sons he had with Emma Smith — Joseph Smith III and Alexander Hale Smith. "Their Y chromosomes were identical, so we know for 100 percent sure what Joseph Smith's Y chromosome looked like. We can now use that standard to verify any other alleged sons," which he did with those who have been eliminated as possible descendants.

"For 160 years people have been writing in books or speculating that these people could have been Joseph Smith's children. When people write something in a book, many people refer to that almost as a fact. Brodie went on and on about Buell, talking about the timing and the picture — everything seems to indicate Buell was Joseph Smith's son. But the DNA says otherwise."

Perego said he was not only able to eliminate Smith as their father, but also was able to confirm that the men who were married to Hancock's and Buell's mothers were actually their biological fathers.

As he finds living descendants of people in question, Perego said he will be happy to continue to test them. "I think this will always be a work in progress. Hopefully, someday we'll be able to test some of the girls as well, when genetic testing is developed to accurately conclude if some of these girls were or were not his descendants."

Plural wife Sylvia Sessions Lyon left a deathbed affidavit for her daughter, Josephine, telling her that her father was Joseph Smith. In terms of circumstantial evidence, "that is probably the strongest case out there, but it involves a daughter. I've collected maybe 120 samples from descendants of Josephine, but as of today, there is not an accurate method" to prove parentage.

Perego's work is an independent project that Sorenson has allowed him to work on, rather than something the foundation does full-time, he said. His motive, he said, is truth, not glory.

"As a scientist, I like to look for truth. If there is a book that says this person was Joseph's son, and I have evidence that's not right, it's important for me to offer an alternative explanation from science that people can refer to. New authors in the future can then take that new genetic evidence into consideration.

"My goal is not at all a crusade to prove or disprove either that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy or that he had children from women other than Emma. I have no agenda to prove or disprove.

"There are legitimate cases of individuals studying family history who have a pedigree chart in front of them that shows" Smith as a third-great-grandfather.

"Because there is some evidence like a book or a rumor in the family, individuals don't know who to put on their pedigree chart. We're talking about real people who want to know who they are descended from.

"Most have told me they don't really care if they come from Joseph Smith or from someone else. They just want to know which one."

For information on DNA testing for family history research, see Sorenson's Web site at www.SMGF.org.

1
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...