Polygamy Is Not The Issue. The Devil Is In The Details

[DBMormon]

When someone raises polygamy as a concern, they are often shut down and told something like - "that is a silly thing to be bothered by, polygamy occurred in the Old Testament by prophets... it really shouldn't bother you". Heck, I have used that myself a time or two. May I state to those who say or think such, Polygamy is really not the issue. Polygamy doesn't bother me as a practice. If informed consenting adult women want to share a man... more power to them. My issue and likely the issue of other LDS who are bothered by "polygamy" is rather with the details of how it was practiced, not the practice itself. 

For Example - what bothers me and others are the following details (most can be read about on LDS.ORG's gospel topics articles and further studied in the work of Todd Compton and Brian Hales

*** Some Evidence ( I see this evidence as conflicting and while I give less weight to this, I recognize others see this as deeply problematic) that Joseph used some level of coercion or that God used some level of coercion on Joseph to then coerce others.
was so unwilling to consider the matter favorably that I fear I did not ask in faith for light. Gross darkness instead of light took possession of my mind. I was tempted and tortured beyond endurance until life was not desirable.... The Prophet discerned my sorrow. He saw how unhappy I was, and sought an opportunity of again speaking to me on this subject....
[He said] "I have no flattering words to offer. It is a command of God to you. I will give you until tomorrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you."– Lucy Walker

Angel with a drawn Sword:
1881: Zina Huntington—Zina D. Young told of Bro. Joseph's remark in relation to the revelation on celestial marriage. How an angel came to him with a drawn sword, and said if he did not obey this law he would lost his priesthood; and in the keeping of it he, Joseph, did not know but it would cost him his life. [3] 

1894: Zina Huntington—[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, 'Tell Zina I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth, I would lost my position and my life.'"

**** Joseph being sealed to 14 year olds bothers me and while there is no evidence of intimacy, if intimacy could ever be shown to have occurred, that would be deeply problematic. As is it is very discomforting and confusing and doesn't sit well. (search Helen Mar Kimball if needed)

*** The taking of some wives from one husband and sealing them to yourself bothers me (Zina Huntington). 

****Besides that Joseph participated in Polyandry (some of the women Joseph was married to were married to other men already.)

**** Brigham married 15/16 year old Clarissa Caroline Decker when he was 42 years old .... that bothers me and seems to run contrary to my senses.... uhhh I really don't want to hear about how young girls at this age married all the time.... still kinda bothers me.

I dislike that people act as if what bothers people about polygamy is polygamy.... when really it is the nitty gritty details that are the issue, not the practice in general. When you tell your friends not to be bothered, you would be better to speak to specifics and not the general practice.
==============
I should add
- Brian Hales whom I respect and share many views with has found ways to reconcile all of this. My issue is his theories only work if there will indeed be more women who make the Celestial Kingdom then men. He has stated so himself that this is his premise. I struggle with that as I just don't buy that God gave women a salvific advantage over men. I don't believe God stacked the odds against me simply because I am a man ( Sorry bill but I designed you to be less spiritual and hence less likely .

- The revelation that allowed polygamy said that it was to raise up seed, but it did just the opposite. The women had far fewer kids than monogamous Mormon women if I have read my data correctly. 

- It also left significant men without a marriage as many of the women were taken.

- Many of the reasons we give for polygamy simply fall short of fact and reality. (more women than men in the Church, it was done to provide for old maids and widows, etc... all simply fall short)

[thesometimesaint]

For the first 100 years or so it did produce righteous seed, and many of those went onto become leaders in the Church.

[omni]

I completely agree, I never had a problem with polygamy until I learned the details. Now it remains as one of the biggest issues for me.

[Mystery Meat]

We are all different. I assumed all the "details" were true when I first learned them. It gave me pause, but didn't cause any real lasting issues for me. It's strange how that works.

[ERayR]

We are all different. I assumed all the "details" were true when I first learned them. It gave me pause, but didn't cause any real lasting issues for me. It's strange how that works.

 

Especially if one starts with the premise that Joseph Smith was called of God and then receive a spiritual witness of that premise.

[Silhouette]

It doesn't bother me. If the revelation was a lie, then Joseph will be held accountable. If it was practiced wrongly, then Joseph, and perhaps Brigham, will be held accountable. If ANYTHING was wrong with it, it won't be that way in the Celestial Kingdom, assuming we must practice it there. If we don't, we don't, but Heavenly Father will make sure it's done correctly if we do.

For me, it's a matter of separating the Gospel from the people in it in one's mind. The Gospel is perfect. The people in it are not, but I trust God to make all right in the end.

[DBMormon]

It doesn't bother me. If the revelation was a lie, then Joseph will be held accountable. If it was practiced wrongly, then Joseph, and perhaps Brigham, will be held accountable. If ANYTHING was wrong with it, it won't be that way in the Celestial Kingdom, assuming we must practice it there. If we don't, we don't, but Heavenly Father will make sure it's done correctly if we do.

For me, it's a matter of separating the Gospel from the people in it in one's mind. The Gospel is perfect. The people in it are not, but I trust God to make all right in the end.

My wife takes the exact same approach.  For her no matter how "bad" the behavior of a prophet would be there is no point where she sees it affecting her salvation and simply chooses not to let it affect her testimony.  I am not programmed the same way but I envy you both... it would make life much easier for me

[Tacenda]

It doesn't bother me. If the revelation was a lie, then Joseph will be held accountable. If it was practiced wrongly, then Joseph, and perhaps Brigham, will be held accountable. If ANYTHING was wrong with it, it won't be that way in the Celestial Kingdom, assuming we must practice it there. If we don't, we don't, but Heavenly Father will make sure it's done correctly if we do.

For me, it's a matter of separating the Gospel from the people in it in one's mind. The Gospel is perfect. The people in it are not, but I trust God to make all right in the end.

What is the "gospel" in the church anyway?

[DBMormon]

We are all different. I assumed all the "details" were true when I first learned them. It gave me pause, but didn't cause any real lasting issues for me. It's strange how that works.

Yeah we are truly different.  We each weight and value things differently.  What bothers one is absolutely not an issue for another.... I find it interesting as well.

[DBMormon]

For the first 100 years or so it did produce righteous seed, and many of those went onto become leaders in the Church.

Had those women been married instead to other active worthy single LDS men, would it not have produced righteous seed?

Edited November 10, 2014 by DBMormon

[JAHS]

"Brian Hales whom I respect and share many views with has found ways to reconcile all of this. My issue is his theories only work if there will indeed be more women who make the Celestial Kingdom then men. He has stated so himself that this is his premise. I struggle with that as I just don't buy that God gave women a salvific advantage over men."

 

So what are the odds that there will be exactly the same number of men as women who are considered worthy to be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom?

No chance of that in my opinion.

[ERayR]

Had those women been married instead to other active worthy single LDS men, would it not have produced righteous seed?

 

Of this we shall never know but we do know what polygamy produced. 

 

One thing I notice you do is project your own biases into a different time and paradigm.  That can cause some distortion.

[Grudunza]

A troubling aspect to me that you didn't mention is that Joseph repeatedly and strongly preached against polygamy. I can accept him as a PSR, regardless, but "liar/hypocrite" is a pretty bad label for a religious leader whose integrity is under intense scrutiny. I suppose the possibility that lets me move past that, to some extent, is that he was commanded to lie about it and preach against it, for some reason (e.g., to protect those practicing it).

I know there are conspiracists who claim that JS never practiced polygamy, and that BY and others put that on him after the fact to justify their practice of it. There are a few interesting aspects to that theory, and it would certainly make sense of Joseph's objections to polygamy... but I have a big problem accepting that with the overwhelming evidence that JS did practice polygamy.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Grudunza

[Glenn101]

My wife takes the exact same approach.  For her no matter how "bad" the behavior of a prophet would be there is no point where she sees it affecting her salvation and simply chooses not to let it affect her testimony.  I am not programmed the same way but I envy you both... it would make life much easier for me

 

 

And what are your choices? Do you think that you have enough information to judge Joseph and his dealings with polygamy? Have you had a revelation from God denying that Joseph erred in the practice? Have you received a revelation that Joseph was not a prophet of God and that he lied when he said that he had been threatened by an angel with a sword that he would be cut off if he did not obey this old but new commandment?

 

There is only one source to obtain the correct answers to those questions. I am one who doe not need to ask the question again. I have already received my confirmation that Joseph was a prophet of God. This came years, well over a hundred years after the events took place. That fact leaves me with the conclusion that Joseph was not a "fallen prophet" but was and still is in pretty good standing with the Lord.

 

Glenn

[BCSpace]

I dislike that people act as if what bothers people about polygamy is polygamy.... when really it is the nitty gritty details that are the issue, not the practice in general. When you tell your friends not to be bothered, you would be better to speak to specifics and not the general practice.

 

 

I think they often bring up these details because God-authorized plural marriage in and of itself is not enough justification to disbelieve especially in a day and age when people shack up willy nilly with whoever and whatever.

[Buzzard]

You are right, Polygamy is not the issue. The issue with JS and the whole restoration is the BOM. If it is what he said it was, (I'm convinced it is), than the rest of this is just a sideshow, and we will get all the details in the next life. If JS made up the BOM, then the details of polygamy's practice and inception are irrevelant, since he was not a prophet and instituted the practice on his own.

[Teancum]

And what are your choices? Do you think that you have enough information to judge Joseph and his dealings with polygamy? Have you had a revelation from God denying that Joseph erred in the practice? Have you received a revelation that Joseph was not a prophet of God and that he lied when he said that he had been threatened by an angel with a sword that he would be cut off if he did not obey this old but new commandment?

 

There is only one source to obtain the correct answers to those questions. I am one who doe not need to ask the question again. I have already received my confirmation that Joseph was a prophet of God. This came years, well over a hundred years after the events took place. That fact leaves me with the conclusion that Joseph was not a "fallen prophet" but was and still is in pretty good standing with the Lord.

 

Glenn

1: choices...analyze what historical data we have with rational thought. Ask if I would give anyone else a pass who behaved like Joseph did in regards to polygamy.

2: yes I think we have plenty of informations to make a conclusion about Joseph Smith and polygamy.

3: re a revelation...well it depends on how you define it. But why is a revelation required?

4: again why is a revelation required to conclude he may have lied about the angel. Do you seek a revelation to determine if others who claim God told them to take on additonal wives are telling the truth?

[strappinglad]

After 1852 when the Church officially announced it was practicing polygamy, thereby normalizing it, was the marriage of men to other men's wives with whom they were still living also normalized? Were marriages of 40 year old men to 14 year olds also normalized?

I remind myself that it has been 13 years since 9/11 . From 1832 until 1844 was 12 years. From 1852 until 1904 was 52 years . From 1945 until the present is 69 years. Time heals.... apparently very little.

[ERayR]

After 1852 when the Church officially announced it was practicing polygamy, thereby normalizing it, was the marriage of men to other men's wives with whom they were still living also normalized? Were marriages of 40 year old men to 14 year olds also normalized?

I remind myself that it has been 13 years since 9/11 . From 1832 until 1844 was 12 years. From 1852 until 1904 was 52 years . From 1945 until the present is 69 years. Time heals.... apparently very little.

 

What I have trouble with is Abraham's attempt to sacrifice his son.

[strappinglad]

A revelation is required when knowledge about an event cannot be obtained reliably from any other source. That is why the church advises us to get our own revelation pertaining to Joseph being God's prophet and the BoM being God's dealings with a people in the Americas. Can you prove that Joseph didn't see an angel? No. Can you prove that he did? No. You weren't there at the time and even if you were scriptures and eye witnesses recount that one could be right there and not experience the event. It seems that there were only 2 people at the event. Joseph was asked and affirmed that it did happen. We could ask the angel I guess. Anyone else upon whose witness we can rely?

[strappinglad]

What I have trouble with is Abraham's attempt to sacrifice his son.

If God commanded me to sacrifice my son, I would say " Uh, NO ". If God commanded me to build a big boat because it was going to rain... a lot! , I would likely say " Can't I just climb yonder hill ? " If God told me to take another wife... (well, there have been times)... excuse me, I would say," One is plenty thanks."

That is why I am where I am spiritually.

[Calm]

"Brian Hales whom I respect and share many views with has found ways to reconcile all of this. My issue is his theories only work if there will indeed be more women who make the Celestial Kingdom then men. He has stated so himself that this is his premise. I struggle with that as I just don't buy that God gave women a salvific advantage over men."

 

So what are the odds that there will be exactly the same number of men as women who are considered worthy to be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom?

No chance of that in my opinion.

It seems to me just as likely there are more men than women in the CK at any particular moment in 'eternity'.  Given that God's family is forever growing as his creations continue, I am not sure that matching numbers really matters all that much.

[BCSpace]

I would have to agree that there are more women in the Celestial than men since plural marriage is a doctrine of the Church and the Church has not undone or apologized for the plural sealings it performs now and has performed in the past.

 

I don't see any way around it.  One could argue about the numbers of children who have died before the age of accountability or young men who have died in wars, but using those to equal things out means more plural marriage or those already sealed to be unsealed and given to another.

 

I am not for or against any outcome that turns out to be the real one; everyone monogamous, or everyone plural, or some plural and some monogamous.

[Silhouette]

What is the "gospel" in the church anyway?

The culmination of all the teachings of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to date, concerning how Jesus' Church should be run. This includes administrative as well as spiritual organization. If you want specifics about what that entails, I suggest you contact the missionaries in your area. They are specifically trained in the best way to explain and teach the Gospel so that it is easy to understand and comprehend the various aspects of LDS teachings and doctrine. I'm just not trained to teach the Gospel the way they are, and I don't want to confuse you. I don't feel qualified to try to explain the deeper aspects, but the missionaries can answer all your questions, and are far more able to discuss various details than I am.

If you would like to contact your local LDS missionaries, you can feel free to private me, and I'll help you get hold of the missionaries who teach in your specific area.

Also, lds.org has a place you can click to get missionaries, I think. I might be mistaken about that, as I've not looked for that there, but it seems I've seen it in passing.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Melanie

Edited November 10, 2014 by Silhouette

[ksfisher]

A troubling aspect to me that you didn't mention is that Joseph repeatedly and strongly preached against polygamy. 

 

 

Could you please cite some examples of him preaching against polygamy.  I'm not aware of them, but perhaps I'm just not well versed on the subject.