Why Not Now?

Grundelwalken · November 5, 2014

I was perusing some of my old files and came across a message I have always loved. It is by one of my favorite (if we are allowed such things) Apostles, Neal A. Maxwell. He seldom took the easy route in his talks and most often they were hard on the soul. I miss him but I'm glad others do the same (at least to me) in reminding where we should be.

Of note, the talk was given in 1974 and yet is seems very pertinent today, 40 years later. Many discussions on the board fall right into the things he discussed and warned about. I found myself desiring to move forward on a few things that I have been putting off lately. I suspect there will be some who find fault with some part of the message but, silly man that I am, hope they might find a grain of goodness in the words of a prophet.

Anyways, the link is below and I hope this might help some who are wavering on the line to make the leap to the side of God and Christ. Happy reading. MW

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/11/why-not-now?lang=eng

Kenngo1969 · November 6, 2014

I certainly don't want to take your thread in a direction you don't want it to go, so please feel free to be forthright with me if I (inadvertently) do so. That talk reminded me of this one:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/04/beware-of-pride?lang=eng

I think both Elder Maxwell and President Benson saw some things on the distant horizon of which most of the rest of us, at the time, were unaware. For what it's worth.

Robert F. Smith · November 6, 2014

Some of my favorite quotes from Neal A. Maxwell, “Why Not Now?” Ensign, November 1974, online at https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/11/why-not-now?lang=eng ,

. . . what you have not defended, your children may reject angrily.

. . . there is an inseparable connection between the keeping of the commandments and the well-being of society.

. . . random, individual goodness is not enough in the fight against evil.

. . . there is also another form of hypocrisy—appearing to be less committed than one really is!

Never mind, therefore, that you have made an investment of self and time in inactivity. Never mind that there is an accumulation of pride that will make it difficult to acknowledge that you have been wrong, for it will never be easier to do than it is now.

. . . may we be different in order to make a difference in the world.

Hamba Tuhan · November 6, 2014

. . . what you have not defended, your children may reject angrily.

Sadly, I have witnessed this play out many times over. A couple who recently moved from our ward insisted on pitching their tent on the fringes of the camp of Zion, with the door turned a few degrees from the view of the temple, and then expressed to me their sincere surprise and dismay that all three of their children have found radically different paths.

Kenngo1969 · November 6, 2014

Some of my favorite quotes from Neal A. Maxwell, “Why Not Now?” Ensign, November 1974, online at https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/11/why-not-now?lang=eng ,

. . . what you have not defended, your children may reject angrily. . . .

Sadly, I have witnessed this play out many times over. A couple who recently moved from our ward insisted on pitching their tent on the fringes of the camp of Zion, with the door turned a few degrees from the view of the temple, and then expressed to me their sincere surprise and dismay that all three of their children have found radically different paths.

Your comment reminds me of this, a masterful discourse by Elder Holland on what parents owe their children in the way of faithfulness:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/a-prayer-for-the-children?lang=eng

Hamba Tuhan · November 6, 2014

Your comment reminds me of this, a masterful discourse by Elder Holland on what parents owe their children in the way of faithfulness:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/a-prayer-for-the-children?lang=eng

Yes, I used Elder Holland's imagery on purpose.

readstoomuch · November 6, 2014

I love an honest to goodness faith promoting thread. I have my own problem with my kids and thought I tried. I have several things to read now.

Duncan · November 6, 2014

There is a line though and I have seen families with overzealous parents who ram the Church down the kids throats and surprise surprise they choked on it and now...they haven't been inside the Church in years

readstoomuch · November 6, 2014

Finding that line is not easy. We always read and pray faithfully every day. We had regular FHE, though not always a lesson. My oldest daughter claimed we were too churchy. I wasn't sure when she was growing up if she was getting enough.

stemelbow · November 6, 2014

Sadly, I have witnessed this play out many times over. A couple who recently moved from our ward insisted on pitching their tent on the fringes of the camp of Zion, with the door turned a few degrees from the view of the temple, and then expressed to me their sincere surprise and dismay that all three of their children have found radically different paths.

Even sadder as we have learned many who defend the faith have had the same problems with their children. There are as many Lehi-type parents whose children become disillusioned and lost and sometimes bitter or angry, perhaps, as there are non-magnifying their calling-type parents who children become disillusioned lost and sometimes bitter or angry.

Some of my dearest church friends over the years, including best companions, complained about their unfaithful parents and how that itself motivated them to be faithful. Some of my dearest friends not in the Church complain about their faithful parents, legally abiding by the word of the law, motivating them, being turned off by the hard-lined gospel way, to find a better way.

Edited November 6, 2014 by stemelbow

stemelbow · November 6, 2014

Some of my favorite quotes from Neal A. Maxwell, “Why Not Now?” Ensign, November 1974, online at https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/11/why-not-now?lang=eng ,

. . . what you have not defended, your children may reject angrily.

. . . there is an inseparable connection between the keeping of the commandments and the well-being of society.

so I commented on the first and wonder about it's effectiveness. This one is interesting sounding but it's also quite nihilistic. No society keeps the commandments, neither does any individual. If this is so, it is no wonder we never see a society beyond struggle, pain, and all that.

. . . random, individual goodness is not enough in the fight against evil.

It's all we have. We can only provide goodness individually and though we all try we all fail over and over. We simply are nothing but individuals only capable of random goodness.

. . . there is also another form of hypocrisy—appearing to be less committed than one really is!

Commitment varies amongst us all. But no one commitment is perfect. I don't know how anyone tries to appear less committed than he/she is. But if so, it's a fair comment, I guess. I tend to think many people express less commitment because they know their own frailties and wish to humbly be honest.

Never mind, therefore, that you have made an investment of self and time in inactivity. Never mind that there is an accumulation of pride that will make it difficult to acknowledge that you have been wrong, for it will never be easier to do than it is now.

The last line is good advice for us all. We will always find ways in which we realize we were wrong about something.

. . . may we be different in order to make a difference in the world.

Kenngo1969 · November 6, 2014

I love an honest to goodness faith promoting thread. I have my own problem with my kids and thought I tried. I have several things to read now.

I don't think the intent of anything posted on this thread is for parents who have made a good faith effort to "train up [their] child[ren] in the way [they] should go," but whose children, nonetheless, have strayed, to feel even worse, even more guilty, et cetera. Rather, the intent of these things is for children whose parents feel they need to "find themselves," et cetera, to carefully consider how choices that diverge from the Gospel will affect not only their children, but also entire future generations, as well. I wish you well.

Kenngo1969 · November 6, 2014

Even sadder as we have learned many who defend the faith have had the same problems with their children. There are as many Lehi-type parents whose children become disillusioned and lost and sometimes bitter or angry, perhaps, as there are non-magnifying their calling-type parents who children become disillusioned lost and sometimes bitter or angry. ...

I disagree that the numbers of disillusioned children descending from each type of parent, respectively, are anywhere approaching equal. And, while this is easy for me to say because I'm not a parent, and while I don't think one needs to be Pharasaical in one's observance of the Gospel (and while I'm aware that that may be part of the problem, in some cases) if my choices are (1) incurring my children's displeasure because I visibly, noticeably live the Gospel and because I want them to know how important it is to me, or (2) incurring God's wrath because I failed to do these things (see Doctrine & Covenants 68:25), I'll choose the former, every time.

stemelbow · November 6, 2014

I disagree that the numbers of disillusioned children descending from each type of parent, respectively, are anywhere approaching equal.

Many parents have more than one child and as it turns out many of those faithful parents have a split among their kids, kinda like Lehi did. I said the number of parents with such kids are split. Don't know if they are equal either. don't know that we can measure it. I'm just saying there is a large group of parents in both camps. I would not be at all surprised to learn that more LDS parents have children that are not practicing at the very least then there are parents who have no children that are not practicing. Anecdotal data is about as good as it may get on this, but it also is worth noting the very low activity rate among members in general, on this point. I may have more of an argument then one might think.

And, while this is easy for me to say because I'm not a parent, and while I don't think one needs to be Pharasaical in one's observance of the Gospel (and while I'm aware that that may be part of the problem, in some cases) if my choices are (1) incurring my children's displeasure because I visibly, noticeably live the Gospel and because I want them to know how important it is to me, or (2) incurring God's wrath because I failed to do these things (see Doctrine & Covenants 68:25), I'll choose the former, every time.

This kinda thinking, in my mind, makes it hard to argue we without them cannot be saved and they without us. Salvation only means something if we have out loved ones there. That's my take anyway.

Robert F. Smith · November 6, 2014

Some of my favorite quotes from Neal A. Maxwell, “Why Not Now?” Ensign, November 1974, online at https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/11/why-not-now?lang=eng ,

. . . what you have not defended, your children may reject angrily.

. . . there is an inseparable connection between the keeping of the commandments and the well-being of society.

so I commented on the first and wonder about it's effectiveness. This one is interesting sounding but it's also quite nihilistic. No society keeps the commandments, neither does any individual. If this is so, it is no wonder we never see a society beyond struggle, pain, and all that.

. . . random, individual goodness is not enough in the fight against evil.

It's all we have. We can only provide goodness individually and though we all try we all fail over and over. We simply are nothing but individuals only capable of random goodness.

. . . there is also another form of hypocrisy—appearing to be less committed than one really is!

Commitment varies amongst us all. But no one commitment is perfect. I don't know how anyone tries to appear less committed than he/she is. But if so, it's a fair comment, I guess. I tend to think many people express less commitment because they know their own frailties and wish to humbly be honest.

Never mind, therefore, that you have made an investment of self and time in inactivity. Never mind that there is an accumulation of pride that will make it difficult to acknowledge that you have been wrong, for it will never be easier to do than it is now.

The last line is good advice for us all. We will always find ways in which we realize we were wrong about something.

. . . may we be different in order to make a difference in the world.

I like this too.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

rpn · November 6, 2014

The problem isn't over teaching, it is in using force and compulsion and authoritarian edicts, as though any of those techniques teach the ways of God. What children need is to experience the love of God and to see faithful goodness, so they can choose the right themselves.

The Nehor · November 7, 2014

There is a line though and I have seen families with overzealous parents who ram the Church down the kids throats and surprise surprise they choked on it and now...they haven't been inside the Church in years

It is my anecdotal experience that the overzealous parents who drive their children out of the Church are those who operate out of fear and (even more sadly) those who are trying to keep up appearances at Church over actually living the gospel. I knew parents who lambasted their children for acting up in Church not because it distracted others or was unkind but because it was an affront to the family honor or something like that. When the eldest started to leave they left the Church and the parents semi-disowned them and badmouthed them to the younger children (who idolized them). The younger children left the home and the Church and I really have a hard time blaming them.

My parents would be considered churchy by many but they believed it and lived it. When they tried to teach me gospel principles they were not trying to get me to stop acting up (or not just that anyways) they wanted me to experience the Holy Ghost more fully and wanted me to be happy and that came through. Even when I childishly hated them I could not really fault them.

Calm · November 7, 2014

Many parents have more than one child and as it turns out many of those faithful parents have a split among their kids, kinda like Lehi did. I said the number of parents with such kids are split. Don't know if they are equal either. don't know that we can measure it. I'm just saying there is a large group of parents in both camps. I would not be at all surprised to learn that more LDS parents have children that are not practicing at the very least then there are parents who have no children that are not practicing. Anecdotal data is about as good as it may get on this, but it also is worth noting the very low activity rate among members in general, on this point. I may have more of an argument then one might think. This kinda thinking, in my mind, makes it hard to argue we without them cannot be saved and they without us. Salvation only means something if we have out loved ones there. That's my take anyway.

There is more than anecdotal data out there on this, generally speaking children follow what they see their parents doing (not just teaching). There are better articles, but this is the easiest one I found that spoke directly to the issue rather than having it one of many things discussed:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-briggs/the-no-1-reason-teens-kee_b_6067838.html

Duncan · November 7, 2014

It is my anecdotal experience that the overzealous parents who drive their children out of the Church are those who operate out of fear and (even more sadly) those who are trying to keep up appearances at Church over actually living the gospel. I knew parents who lambasted their children for acting up in Church not because it distracted others or was unkind but because it was an affront to the family honor or something like that. When the eldest started to leave they left the Church and the parents semi-disowned them and badmouthed them to the younger children (who idolized them). The younger children left the home and the Church and I really have a hard time blaming them.

My parents would be considered churchy by many but they believed it and lived it. When they tried to teach me gospel principles they were not trying to get me to stop acting up (or not just that anyways) they wanted me to experience the Holy Ghost more fully and wanted me to be happy and that came through. Even when I childishly hated them I could not really fault them.

every word you say is true. I know a bigger family that, my gosh, the activity rate of the kids and their kids and whatnot is abysmal. It's a multi generational problem now, but I can talk all night about them and it's sad, really sad

Avatar4321 · November 7, 2014

There is a line though and I have seen families with overzealous parents who ram the Church down the kids throats and surprise surprise they choked on it and now...they haven't been inside the Church in years

the line is simple. D&C 121.

probably one of the greatest revelations of the restoration.

Duncan · November 7, 2014

the line is simple. D&C 121.
probably one of the greatest revelations of the restoration.

those people who do these types of things probably don't see their behaviour as what DC 121 as talking about, if they read it of course!

November 7, 2014

I was perusing some of my old files and came across a message I have always loved. It is by one of my favorite (if we are allowed such things) Apostles, Neal A. Maxwell. He seldom took the easy route in his talks and most often they were hard on the soul. I miss him but I'm glad others do the same (at least to me) in reminding where we should be.

Of note, the talk was given in 1974 and yet is seems very pertinent today, 40 years later. Many discussions on the board fall right into the things he discussed and warned about. I found myself desiring to move forward on a few things that I have been putting off lately. I suspect there will be some who find fault with some part of the message but, silly man that I am, hope they might find a grain of goodness in the words of a prophet.

Anyways, the link is below and I hope this might help some who are wavering on the line to make the leap to the side of God and Christ. Happy reading. MW

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/11/why-not-now?lang=eng

I love him and miss him and have most of his books. The man could indeed turn a phrase and in doing so make you search you soul.

Grundelwalken · November 7, 2014

I'm glad so many others find something in E. Maxwell's words. Often, as I visit this site and others, I have a sense of sadness for those who struggle so much with their testimony. My solace comes from the words of living prophets like NAM and E's Holland, Bednar, and Scott. They all give me strength and hope for the days ahead. MW

(Not meaning to slight the other Brethren, but these 'sing' better to my soul.)

stemelbow · November 7, 2014

There is more than anecdotal data out there on this, generally speaking children follow what they see their parents doing (not just teaching). There are better articles, but this is the easiest one I found that spoke directly to the issue rather than having it one of many things discussed:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-briggs/the-no-1-reason-teens-kee_b_6067838.html

I don't see how this addresses the issue of whether more parents that one can consider practicing through their children's growing up years have all grown children practicing than parents who were practicing and have some grown children now practicing and some not.

My parents had 6 children. 5 are in the church one is not--all over 30 now. my parents were great, a bit more liberal than is most appreciated in the Church, but were faithful attenders, paid tithing had callings etc. But as it is my parents would have to be considered in the group of parents who have a split among their kids. They would not be in the crew of parents who had all children stick to the faith. come to think of it nearly all of my friends parents are in the same boat--some to most kids remain in the Church while others do not.

stemelbow · November 7, 2014

I agree with you generally, stemelbow, but I think that you miss the relative value of some of the Maxwell comments. He wasn't suggesting perfection, but rather tendencies and percentages. That is, his argument that "there is an inseparable connection between the keeping of the commandments and the well-being of society," is not at all "nihilistic," but is instead an obvious truism that, to the degree that any society behaves well, the well-being of that society is better.

The call to perfection is a classic fallacy.

Fair enough. The well-being of society is probably hard to measure and probably varies for many people.

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