Boanerges Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 Well, given that possibility, the only way to know if anything is true is to pray about it. And since people frequently receive differing answers it would be almost impossible to determine "true teachings".Excellent point - there are known truths, however - Jesus did die for our sins and was resurrected the third day. Beyond that much of it is speculation.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Biggest threat?That the church relies on apologists to re-make, re-mold, re-tell and re-think church history, scriptures and prophesies to fit the crisis of the day.The church doesn´t take even a stab at a stance on any issue until the question has been put to a committee of "experts" who come up with the most plausible, provisional guestimate that will quiet disturbed souls, for awhile. Then, when the next issue rears its ugly head, the whole process begins again.It took the church 130 years to clearly define a stance on priesthood rights, but at least that answer came from the top down. It´s time for more guidance from the top and fewer deals from the bottom of the deck.Some members of religious organizations are highly motivated to spread their particular interpretations of their favorite religion (anything from Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, Judaism, Scientology, Christianity, to whatever). They seek to provide an explanation or defense (apologia) for their faith. Some are more successful than others in doing this, but they are usually not official representatives of the religious organization they defend. Those religions do not depend on such apologists to defend them, and are typically providing their own version of the religion for public consumption. Your cynical version of how religious organizations go about deciding whether or how to deal with controversial issues may tell us more about your mindset than it does about the controversy itself. Within the LDS tradition, revelations typically come only when an issue or question is raised. That's how it was in Joseph's day, and that has been the case in more modern times. Once a dispensation is fully formed and gets rolling, constant, written revelations are not necessary to keep the organization functioning. On the other hand, an institutionalized Church (any church) can become sclerotic, unresponsive, and unwieldy, and many of those are falling quietly by the wayside even as we gab about the issue here. LDS dynamism seems in the meantime not to have abated. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) Most people do not care what the apologists and critics say. True - I gave up on apologists years ago. Too much spin, it made me dizzy.What about the critics? Edited September 29, 2014 by Robert F. Smith
LOSTONE Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Believers finding reasons not to believe and thus, leaving the church. Can’t have a church if no one has a reason to be apart of that.
Ahab Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Every other dispensation begs to disagree.Our dispensation is special, we have a guarantee that the Church will survive to the end. Whether that is an easy survival or a battered bleeding remnant probably depends on us.It's not like the true Church of Christ can ever become apostate. The true Church is not an apostate Church and can never be apostate, because that wouldn't be the true Church. So the worst that can happen is for members of the true Church to become apostate and therefore be part of an apostate Church, which is not the true Church, because the true Church is not an apostate Church.
The Nehor Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 It's not like the true Church of Christ can ever become apostate. The true Church is not an apostate Church and can never be apostate, because that wouldn't be the true Church. So the worst that can happen is for members of the true Church to become apostate and therefore be part of an apostate Church, which is not the true Church, because the true Church is not an apostate Church. So your argument is that the Church can't apostasize because at the moment it apostasizes it is already apostate and thus cannot have apostasized?
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Forged letters, as that one guy tried with the Salamander Letter of Joseph Smith.
sunstoned Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Forged letters, as that one guy tried with the Salamander Letter of Joseph Smith.Is that the one that was bought up by the first presidency?
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 I believe so. Another thing that people try to bring up is how much the General Authorities such as the Prophet and Quorum of the 12 are compensated for living expenses. So the paid clergy aspect.
Ahab Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 So your argument is that the Church can't apostasize because at the moment it apostasizes it is already apostate and thus cannot have apostasized.Well, yeah, basically, or as I was saying, the true Church can not be an apostate Church because an apostate Church is not what the true Church of Christ is and it can't be both true and apostate at the same time.Give it some more thought, why don't cha, if for some strange reason you think the true Church of Christ could ever be apostate. You don't want to give Catholics any hope that they could be in the true Church, and still be apostate, do ya?
HappyJackWagon Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Well, yeah, basically, or as I was saying, the true Church can not be an apostate Church because an apostate Church is not what the true Church of Christ is and it can't be both true and apostate at the same time.Give it some more thought, why don't cha, if for some strange reason you think the true Church of Christ could ever be apostate. You don't want to give Catholics any hope that they could be in the true Church, and still be apostate, do ya?By this logic we could conclude that if the church is apostate from the true teachings of Christ we can be sure that it never was Christ's TRUE church.
JLHPROF Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Well, yeah, basically, or as I was saying, the true Church can not be an apostate Church because an apostate Church is not what the true Church of Christ is and it can't be both true and apostate at the same time.Give it some more thought, why don't cha, if for some strange reason you think the true Church of Christ could ever be apostate. You don't want to give Catholics any hope that they could be in the true Church, and still be apostate, do ya? What wonderful doublespeak... The True Church can be established and true and then move towards falsehood and enter a state of apostasy.It would no longer be the true Church, but that doesn't remove it's true origins.
rockpond Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 It's biggest threat to the institutional church is itself.1. It has trouble changing to meet the needs of an increasingly international and diverse church.2. It's missionary program is becoming increasingly irrelevant largely due to its business type model.3. It does not know how to appeal to its youth and young adults.These 3 iMO are the live bloods of the church. If you can get this right, and quickly, you don't have a church in a generation or two. I was trying to think of a way to state my answer (that isn't quite contained in the poll choices) then I came across this response by Paddy. I agree completely.
rockpond Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 A hypothetical version of the same poll written a hundred to a hundred and fifty years ago might of looked some thing like this: No longer believing in a literal gathering to Zion in Missouri.Polygamy rejected by the ChurchBlacks receiving the PriesthoodInterracial MarriageAmerican Indians not all descendants of Lehi. Excellent point.
Ahab Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 By this logic we could conclude that if the church is apostate from the true teachings of Christ we can be sure that it never was Christ's TRUE church.Yes or No, is the true Church of Christ an apostate organization? Please explain your reasoning if you believe the true Church is or could ever be an apostate organization.
Ahab Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 What wonderful doublespeak...The True Church can be established and true and then move towards falsehood and enter a state of apostasy.It would no longer be the true Church, but that doesn't remove it's true origins.The true Church doesn't ever become apostate. Some members of the true Church can fall away (aka apostasize) from the true Church and form an apostate Church, but the true Church itself is never at any time an apostate organization.
CV75 Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 I voted "None of the above" because as the D&C indicates repeatedly, the Lord can do and will finish His own work; we're invited to assist for our salvation, not His.
omni Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Yes or No, is the true Church of Christ an apostate organization? Please explain your reasoning if you believe the true Church is or could ever be an apostate organization.Ahab,Your position would have been much stronger if you had simply stated it is official doctrine that the Church will never again be overcome by general apostasy as stated in D&C 138:44.
JLHPROF Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 The true Church doesn't ever become apostate. Some members of the true Church can fall away (aka apostasize) from the true Church and form an apostate Church, but the true Church itself is never at any time an apostate organization. Again, doublespeak.If the church leadership and the way the church is run becomes apostasy then the "Church" has apostatized, whether or not they form a new apostate church. If President Monson and the GA's all agreed and established apostate doctrine (baptism of infants by sprinkling for instance) and the Church agreed by common consent then THE CHURCH would have apostatized. It doesn't required the establishment of a new Church. The Church as established was true. If that happened it would no longer be true.
Carebear0411 Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) It makes me sad to see so many members on this site state that there are dangers to the church. We have been promised that the church will be led by prophecy, the PH will not be removed from the Earth and the doctrine of the church will point us towards Christ's coming till that day arrives. The dangers that are listed in the poll are real...but they don't endanger the church. Rather they endanger society as it spirals further and further down into Satan's grasp. SSM will be part of what destroys religious freedoms and the basic, foundational unit of society - the traditional family. The Ordain Women movement is a danger to its members and to immature minds and testimonies. My daughter is caught up in it and considers herself leaps and bounds more advanced in her thinking than those of us with unwavering testimonies of the gospel and its restoration. The biggest danger of all is to those who think they know better than those who are in constant conversation with God...our prophets. What hubris!! Proverbs 3:5 "Lean not unto thine own understanding", 2 Nephi 28:31 "Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost."Whatever anyone has to say about the church and it's stances on today's "hot" issues or it's history is absolutely irrelevant. I know through personal revelation and through study of the scriptures that this is God's Church, that He leads and directs it. I know it is led by men - mortal, prone to mistakes, faulty - as were all the prophets of pre-meridian and post-meridian eras. But I know that whatever mistakes are made by these wonderful, mortal men, God - in his own due time - will present the truth of things. Therefore I have no angst or concern about any of the historical issues...God has or will make right anything that is relevant to man's salvation. I trust God and I trust our prophets. Unfortunately, there are far too many members who don't trust, who think its possible for the restored Church of Christ to become apostate, despite the promises to the contrary. I can only hope the spirit of testimony will kindle in the hearts of those who doubt that Christ is at the helm. "Even the very elect..." Edited September 29, 2014 by Carebear0411
JLHPROF Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Unfortunately, there are far too many members who don't trust, who think its possible for the restored Church of Christ to become apostate, despite the promises to the contrary. I don't believe it's possible for the Church in this last dispensation to become apostate. I do believe that the Church can act out of order and do things that are not what God has in mind.This is why the scriptures are clear that the House of God (Temple/Church) will need to be set in order before the return of the savior - we will be out of order in some manner. And it does not refer to just cleansing the non-believers, it refers to fixing error - Isaiah 24:5 and D&C 112:24-26. But there will never need to be another restoration - the Church and Priesthood and ordinances have been restored correctly for the last time.
Ahab Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) Again, doublespeak.If the church leadership and the way the church is run becomes apostasy then the "Church" has apostatized, whether or not they form a new apostate church.No, not whether or not they form a new apostate church. They would actually have to join the false church, the church of the devil, and leave the true church.If President Monson and the GA's all agreed and established apostate doctrine (baptism of infants by sprinkling for instance) and the Church agreed by common consent then THE CHURCH would have apostatized.It might help you if you would distinguish the difference between the true church of Jesus Christ and "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Right now the latter is the former, but if the latter ever apostasized from the former then the latter would no longer be the true church of Christ. But the true church of Christ will never be an apostate organization.It doesn't required the establishment of a new Church. The Church as established was true. If that happened it would no longer be true.I agree with this. I think you're just having some trouble distinguishing the true church of Christ from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I understand why. Edited September 29, 2014 by Ahab
The Nehor Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Yes or No, is the true Church of Christ an apostate organization? Please explain your reasoning if you believe the true Church is or could ever be an apostate organization.Important Lifehack: any time anyone tries to force you to answer a question with a yes or no false dichotomy answer or dodge the question they are trying to force you to agree with them. Don't answer.
Ahab Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 Important Lifehack: any time anyone tries to force you to answer a question with a yes or no false dichotomy answer or dodge the question they are trying to force you to agree with them. Don't answer.No force was intended and you can dodge the question as much as you want to.
HappyJackWagon Posted September 29, 2014 Posted September 29, 2014 As long as any church is run by men, whether inspired or not, there will always be some level of apostacy. This is true for membership and the church in general. Why? Because no person or organization is perfect. If it's not perfect, then there is error. Error in organization. Error in teaching, doctrine, culture, philosophy, policy etc. The church is not perfect. Any claim to the contrary is just scary.
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