Alan Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I re-read Lehi's vision this morning in 1 Nephi 8 and became aware of something I hadn't seen before.In verses 5-7 Lehi says a man dressed in a white robe came and stood before him and asked Lehi to follow him. Lehi did this but then found himself in a "dreary waste" and travelled many hours in darkness (v8). Lehi became very worried and prayed to God for help. Once he did this he was able to see the large field and the tree, taste the fruit etc. My problem here relates to the identity of the person in the white robe. The reason I have a problem is that it appears that following him was not a good idea as it resulted in Lehi being in a dreary waste and wandering in darkness for many hours. It was only when Lehi appealed directly to God in prayer (stopped following the guy in the white robe?) that he was delivered from the situation he had found himself in. I find this all quite puzzling. I have had a look around the internet to see if anyone has addressed this and all I could find was someone stating that this is a warning to us to quit following our corrupt/apostate leaders (who appear to be righteous - "white robes") and deal directly with God ourselves. That is obviously one view, but I wondered whether anyone could help me find another interpretation. I would be very interested in your comments.
Mystery Meat Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I find this all quite puzzling. I have had a look around the internet to see if anyone has addressed this and all I could find was someone stating that this is a warning to us to quit following our corrupt/apostate leaders (who appear to be righteous - "white robes") and deal directly with God ourselves. That is obviously one view, but I wondered whether anyone could help me find another interpretation. Only problem with this view, is that for the rest of the Dream, Lehi (a prophet and leader) was helping others reach the tree, and it is a good thing people were listening. There is something to be said about going straight to the source of truth and light, and each of us should be doing that on a regular basis. We don't need a mortal intermediary to do that. However, it seems that it is the nature of man to try and dismiss the need of prophets, apostles, and key holders. People did it to Moses, Nephi, Joseph Smith, and they are doing it Thomas S. Monson. So what I do know is that the man in the white robe is not meant to be the Lord's chosen (First Presidency and Quorum of the 12). Apart from that, I haven't given it much thought. I could see him representing the philosophies of men, that on the surface look good (SSM, OW, etc.) but are really counter to the Lord's plan. But I could also see it being nothing more than an Angel taking Nephi into the dream and leaving him there to find God and his way to the tree. Your guess is as good as mine.
Calm Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 He could have been following a righteous messenger, but only when he reached out to God for a more personal connection were his eyes fully opened.It is not enough to follow prophets and good men and women who God sends to us. We must also seek him ourselves and in communion receive revelation which fully illuminates the path the prophet has led us through with understanding and the additional gifts that can only come from God. 3
S.Ferreira Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I think that following the man dressed in a white robe allowed Lehi to perceive the state he was really in, the dark and dreary waste. And that clearer understanding set Lehi up to further see the path that he needed to take to be removed from that dark and dreary waste. 3
Popular Post longview Posted August 4, 2014 Popular Post Posted August 4, 2014 Did you check/follow the footnote to "man" ? It references Daniel 10:2-12. It speaks of a glorious being that is acting as a "guide" to the vision given to Daniel. Similarly, Lehi was being guided into his vision of the "Tree of Life". Nothing sinister about that man in the robe. The "Dark and Dreary Waste" I believe is simply a representation of mortality on this Telestial Sphere (Earth). In the following verses speaks of a "Large and Spacious Field" which has its own interpretation I suppose different from the first. 5
CV75 Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I re-read Lehi's vision.The man in the white robe was like the conductor on a train at the start of the trip, or a docent introducing where to begin the self-guided tour. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I don't have any problem concluding that the man in a white robe is a righteous messenger. We're all basically in a Dark and Dreary Waste right now, hopefully doing our best to follow righteous guides (Prophets, Seers, Revelators, the Holy Spirit, righteous parents and other leaders, et cetera) who will see us through. But their purpose is to do exactly that: to see us through. Elder Neal A. Maxwell, I believe in his book Not My Will, But Thine, says that too many of us spend too much time looking for ways around difficulties when there isn't any "around": the only way out is through. Did Lehi's guide help him through? I believe he did. With due respect to Brother Alan, there are plenty of people in the world who conclude that if we're obedient, if we do all of the right things, we will be spared mortality's vicissitudes. T'ain't necessarily so, and I think, moreover, that it's a potentially-dangerous idea: "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Or, "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he [is experiencing fill-in-the-blank-with-mortal-travail-here]." The reality is that even if we don't feel ourselves to be particularly "lost," and even if we feel our lives are going swimmingly with no major opposition (How would it be? ), we're still essentially spiritual beings who are out of our element because we are away from Home and have been placed here to have a mortal experience. 3
Senator Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Remember, it was a dream. Dreams tend to be wacky.
JAHS Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Some say the white robed man was Jesus Christ. James E. Talmage suggested that it was the Holy Ghost.Whoever he was the fact that he was dressed in a white robe indicates He was a messenger from God.
The Nehor Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 As someone who has followed the message of God and often ended up in a dark and dreary waste I have no problem with it. God does not promise us a pleasant life just because we are doing what we are supposed to. 1
ksfisher Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 We followed Christ's plan in the pre-existence, which led us here to this "dark and dreary waste." It could symbolize that. Or, it could symbolize that now matter how well we follow God/the Sprit/the prophet, there are times when we find ourselves unable to see and need direction from God/the Spirit/the prophet. Christ beckons to each of us and says "come follow me." Even though we can't see him we do our best to follow him. And, as Paul says, we walk by faith in this life. 1
janderich Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Kenngo/Nehor,Angels are the ones that lead us around in dreary wastes? Sorry, not buying it. In this scripture Lehi notes that this is a man, not an angel. He is wearing a white robe, but it is obvious from the context that he is not from God. Otherwise as Lehi followed this man he would not have wandered in a dreary waste but would have been led down the path to the love of God. The white robe is interesting, he has some earthly credentials but he cannot show Lehi the way. Only when he prays to God is the darkness lifted.My personal opinion of this section is that we must not follow men, for they do not know the way. Instead we must follow God. This does not mean we should not follow the prophet but that we should turn to God and confirm their counsel. 1
ksfisher Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Brant Gardner's Book of Mormon commentary "Second Witness" has this to say about that passage: "In Lehi's dream, the messenger wears white, which corresponds with purtiy, cleanliness, and , in the case of a dream, divinity in the canons of Middle Eastern (and Western) art. Thus a messenger from Yahweh (an angel by definition) comes to lead Lehi on the journey." 1
The Nehor Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Kenngo/Nehor,Angels are the ones that lead us around in dreary wastes? Sorry, not buying it. In this scripture Lehi notes that this is a man, not an angel. He is wearing a white robe, but it is obvious from the context that he is not from God. Otherwise as Lehi followed this man he would not have wandered in a dreary waste but would have been led down the path to the love of God. The white robe is interesting, he has some earthly credentials but he cannot show Lehi the way. Only when he prays to God is the darkness lifted.My personal opinion of this section is that we must not follow men, for they do not know the way. Instead we must follow God. This does not mean we should not follow the prophet but that we should turn to God and confirm their counsel.I have no problem with angels leading us through dreary wastes. It happens all the time. A sister who marries under the influence of the Holy Ghost and has several children and is then abandoned by her husband, a child in an abusive home does everything he can to live the gospel but is still in that home, active parents give birth to a disabled child requiring constant care with no relief, Joseph remains loyal to his God and is imprisoned for it, Nephi and Jacob describe their exile as a solemn and sorrowful one, and Jesus did everything right and suffered and died for it. Some of that suffering was not part of the atonement.I have followed God to dreary wastes. I have even gotten angry at God for it. The most poignant time I thought I was on my way to happiness by following the instructions of God but instead I led others to happiness and went to a dreary place myself. At least I got a better grasp of the older brother in the story of the prodigal. As far as we know he never got the lamb to make merry with his friends and his promised inheritance was still a long ways ahead. 2
CV75 Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Kenngo/Nehor,Angels are the ones that lead us around in dreary wastes? Sorry, not buying it.In this scripture Lehi notes that this is a man, not an angel. He is wearing a white robe, but it is obvious from the context that he is not from God. Otherwise as Lehi followed this man he would not have wandered in a dreary waste but would have been led down the path to the love of God. The white robe is interesting, he has some earthly credentials but he cannot show Lehi the way. Only when he prays to God is the darkness lifted.My personal opinion of this section is that we must not follow men, for they do not know the way. Instead we must follow God. This does not mean we should not follow the prophet but that we should turn to God and confirm their counsel.The scripture says, "as I followed him I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste." It was like following an usher into the play. After Lehi entered the scene (the vision), the usher was no longer needed. I think an angel could have served that function. But the man could have been a vision as well. In any case, I think it is good to use our contacts with everyone we come across (good or bad, authorized servants or not) to bring us closer to God and to consider God in all our dealings. The Lord does bring to mind our lost and fallen state from time to time.
janderich Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I have no problem with angels leading us through dreary wastes. It happens all the time. A sister who marries under the influence of the Holy Ghost and has several children and is then abandoned by her husband, a child in an abusive home does everything he can to live the gospel but is still in that home, active parents give birth to a disabled child requiring constant care with no relief, Joseph remains loyal to his God and is imprisoned for it, Nephi and Jacob describe their exile as a solemn and sorrowful one, and Jesus did everything right and suffered and died for it. Some of that suffering was not part of the atonement.Through dreary wastes, perhaps. But this is not what the man did. He led Lehi around and around in darkness. To get out he did not turn to the man, instead he turned to God for mercy.
janderich Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 The scripture says, "as I followed him I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste." It was like following an usher into the play. After Lehi entered the scene (the vision), the usher was no longer needed. I think an angel could have served that function. But the man could have been a vision as well. In any case, I think it is good to use our contacts with everyone we come across (good or bad, authorized servants or not) to bring us closer to God and to consider God in all our dealings. The Lord does bring to mind our lost and fallen state from time to time.I agree that we should look for the good in others and help them lead us to God, but I do not believe this is the point of these scriptures. It is about looking to God in spite of what man may say. Lehi calls his guide a man, not an angel. Because he has a white robe we assume he is an angel. Isn't this what those who do not take the spirit as their guide do? They take a person of authority, perhaps one dressed in robes or with credentials and say, "I will do exactly what you say". In so doing they are led by blind guides and unsurprisingly they wander in darkness. After "many hours" they may come to themselves. When they do, they pray to the Lord for mercy according to the multitude of his tender mercies. He shows them the way and leads them from darkness.
ksfisher Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Through dreary wastes, perhaps. But this is not what the man did. He led Lehi around and around in darkness. To get out he did not turn to the man, instead he turned to God for mercy. CFR that the man led Lehi "around and around in darkness."
CV75 Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 I agree that we should look for the good in others and help them lead us to God, but I do not believe this is the point of these scriptures. It is about looking to God in spite of what man may say.Lehi calls his guide a man, not an angel. Because he has a white robe we assume he is an angel. Isn't this what those who do not take the spirit as their guide do? They take a person of authority, perhaps one dressed in robes or with credentials and say, "I will do exactly what you say". In so doing they are led by blind guides and unsurprisingly they wander in darkness. After "many hours" they may come to themselves. When they do, they pray to the Lord for mercy according to the multitude of his tender mercies. He shows them the way and leads them from darkness.It was a vision. Yours is as much a personal interpretation as anyone’s, and as “right” or as "fine and dandy" as any. Angels are men; prophets are men; men are men. The man in the white robe could have been any of them; but his function to direct Lehi on the path into the vision is the same, which is much like the stage manager in “Our Town.” If you learn a lesson to put God first, wonderful; if I learn a lesson to be "quick to observe" visions, that is wonderful too. If you learn a lesson to beware of phony prophets, wonderful; if I learn a lesson to take one step at a time, that is wonderful too. There was a thread recently about the parable of the prodigal son. There are many layers of lessons and many applications to be learned from it (as well as all the parables), not just one single "right" one. D&C 91 is about Apocrypha, but I can well apply it to the parables and visions of scripture: "Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth; And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom; And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited." There are many things posted on this thread which are true about the record of Lehi's vision; it would be well to recognize and appreciate them.
janderich Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 CFR that the man led Lehi "around and around in darkness."And it came to pass that as I followed him I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste. And after I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness..." (1 Ne 8:7-8 italics added) I think it is a safe to believe that since he started by followed the man in the dark and dreary waste that he continued to do so until he prayed to God.
ksfisher Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) And it came to pass that as I followed him I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste. And after I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness..." (1 Ne 8:7-8 italics added) I think it is a safe to believe that since he started by followed the man in the dark and dreary waste that he continued to do so until he prayed to God. But you stated that Lehi was being led "around and around." Nothing in the text says that. Lehi does not seem to have any worries about following as he does so immediately. Nowhere does it say that Lehi has any reservations about following the man or later that he has any regrets. You seem to be reading more into the text than what is actually stated. Edited August 5, 2014 by ksfisher 2
The Nehor Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Through dreary wastes, perhaps. But this is not what the man did. He led Lehi around and around in darkness. To get out he did not turn to the man, instead he turned to God for mercy. Actually the angel/man led him to the tree. It was only when Lehi prayed for mercy that he saw the field and the tree. There is probably a lesson there. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 Remember, it was a dream. Dreams tend to be wacky.
Kenngo1969 Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 As someone who has followed the message of God and often ended up in a dark and dreary waste I have no problem with it. God does not promise us a pleasant life just because we are doing what we are supposed to.I might've made a similar point earlier in the thread. (Great minds think alike. )
janderich Posted August 5, 2014 Posted August 5, 2014 But you stated that Lehi was being led "around and around." Nothing in the text says that. Lehi does not seem to have any worries about following as he does so immediately. Nowhere does it say that Lehi has any reservations about following the man or later that he has any regrets. You seem to be reading more into the text than what is actually stated.I don't think so, Lehi prays that the Lord would have mercy on him. This is not some random prayer to the Lord. No, he prays because he has wandered in the dreary waste for hours.
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