Lehi's Dream

[janderich]

Actually the angel/man led him to the tree. It was only when Lehi prayed for mercy that he saw the field and the tree. There is probably a lesson there.

I agree there is a lesson there about Lehi praying and then seeing the tree. But note that after he prayed and beheld the tree he still had to "go forth" to partake of the fruit. So it's questionable if the man in white led him to the tree.

[janderich]

It was a vision. Yours is as much a personal interpretation as anyone’s, and as “right” or as "fine and dandy" as any. Angels are men; prophets are men; men are men. The man in the white robe could have been any of them; but his function to direct Lehi on the path into the vision is the same, which is much like the stage manager in “Our Town.” If you learn a lesson to put God first, wonderful; if I learn a lesson to be "quick to observe" visions, that is wonderful too. If you learn a lesson to beware of phony prophets, wonderful; if I learn a lesson to take one step at a time, that is wonderful too.

 

There was a thread recently about the parable of the prodigal son. There are many layers of lessons and many applications to be learned from it (as well as all the parables), not just one single "right" one. D&C 91 is about Apocrypha, but I can well apply it to the parables and visions of scripture: "Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth; And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom; And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited."

 

There are many things posted on this thread which are true about the record of Lehi's vision; it would be well to recognize and appreciate them.

This is an interesting point. I think there are different lessons to be learned but some interpretations are wrong. For instance, the issue of this man. Is he a servant of the Lord, or a servant of the devil. I don't think we can say both interpretations are equally right. Also, does this dream have a specific message for those who read it or can all the symbols be construed to have different meanings.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I first saw this theory from one of Jim Harstrom's ex-Apostles, Randy Maudsley and it makes sense to me.

It isn't until Lehi, after realizing he isn't getting anywhere, and he has been wondering for hours, cries out to the LORD that he is ushered into the field to begin his real journey.

I do believe the being represented false religion, false practices, etc...

So what if the being was wearing white?... satan can transform himself nigh unto an angel of light.

[Mystery Meat]

If the man was a false prophet (which he isn't) that is not to say we shouldn't follow the prophet, because Lehi, the prophet, immediately after partaking of the fruit invited others to come partake of the fruit. Clearly, the message of Lehi's dream in no way, shape or form was about not trusting the Lord's anointed. Moreover, the Iron rod represents the word of God, which we as Latter-day Saints construe to be the scriptures and other inspired texts (Proclamation on the Family, General Conference, etc.). So the very thing which leads to the tree, in many cases, were given by prophets. There is no message here or anywhere else in scripture that gives men the privilege of ignoring the Lord's chosen.

[ksfisher]

I don't think so, Lehi prays that the Lord would have mercy on him. This is not some random prayer to the Lord. No, he prays because he has wandered in the dreary waste for hours. 

 

I agree that Lehi has prays because he has been wandering, that's what the text says.  I agree that the prayer wasn't random (I'm not sure how you could pray a "random prayer to the Lord").  

 

I disagree with your assertion that Lehi following the man was a bad thing.  The text of the Book of Mormon makes no such claim.

[CV75]

Is he a servant of the Lord, or a servant of the devil. I don't think we can say both interpretations are equally right.

The vision is an instrument of the Lord; everything in the vision came from the Lord. The people in the vision are not real people doing literal things; they are images. So I think the man can be rightly interpreted as either, depending on the lesson that needs to be learned by the interpreter, assuming that he is taught by the Spirit and his conclusions bring him closer to Christ. Apparently Lehi didn't need to learn anything by the imaginary man's righteousness because he didn't comment on him after the first few verses. Nephi never mentioned him either after giving the vision additonal thought and attention.

[Kenngo1969]

... I do believe the being represented false religion, false practices, etc...

So what if the being was wearing white?... satan can transform himself nigh unto an angel of light.

Critics/skeptics of the Restoration account use the same logic to dismiss the First Vision.   By their logic, the "astonishing influence" that bound Joseph's tongue and the "thick darkness" that gathered around him actually emanated from a benevolent spirit, while the brightness that was "above the sun at noonday" actually emanated from two malevolent spirits.  Again, I don't think doing what's right means that we're going to be spared the sort of opposition Lehi encountered in his vision.  If that is the case, then I'm royally screwed!

[JDave]

 

The vision is an instrument of the Lord; everything in the vision came from the Lord. The people in the vision are not real people doing literal things; they are images. So I think the man can be rightly interpreted as either, depending on the lesson that needs to be learned by the interpreter, assuming that he is taught by the Spirit and his conclusions bring him closer to Christ. Apparently Lehi didn't need to learn anything by the imaginary man's righteousness because he didn't comment on him after the first few verses. Nephi never mentioned him either after giving the vision additonal thought and attention.

Agreed. Lehi doesn't seem to think the significance of the robed man was much beyond simply marking the beginning of the vision. It doesn't even appear that the man stayed with Lehi. If he had been leading Lehi around the dark and dreary waste for hours, don't you think Lehi would have asked a question to the man right there with him? If he was with Lehi, what happened to him after Lehi prayed and was shown the tree? The simplest explanation (to me) is that God sent a messenger to "usher" Lehi into a vision, and the messenger did his job and left.

[The Nehor]

 

Agreed. Lehi doesn't seem to think the significance of the robed man was much beyond simply marking the beginning of the vision. It doesn't even appear that the man stayed with Lehi. If he had been leading Lehi around the dark and dreary waste for hours, don't you think Lehi would have asked a question to the man right there with him? If he was with Lehi, what happened to him after Lehi prayed and was shown the tree? The simplest explanation (to me) is that God sent a messenger to "usher" Lehi into a vision, and the messenger did his job and left.

 

As someone who remembers a lot of his dreams I have no problem with Lehi not asking the guy a question. I rarely act logically in my dreams. I once chatted with Jesus in a dream. We talked about restaurants. It seemed logical while I was dreaming.

 

Edit: Oh, and eat risotto if you want to hedge your bets.

Edited August 5, 2014 by The Nehor

[CV75]

 

Agreed. Lehi doesn't seem to think the significance of the robed man was much beyond simply marking the beginning of the vision. It doesn't even appear that the man stayed with Lehi. If he had been leading Lehi around the dark and dreary waste for hours, don't you think Lehi would have asked a question to the man right there with him? If he was with Lehi, what happened to him after Lehi prayed and was shown the tree? The simplest explanation (to me) is that God sent a messenger to "usher" Lehi into a vision, and the messenger did his job and left.

Cool. I looked up the references for white robe in the scriptures, and they typically point to those whose blood has been washed in the blood of the Lamb, servants of the Lord, martyrs, and in Nephi’s vision, the apostle John. So while rather perfunctory, it would seem the role of the man in the white robe in Lehi’s dream, which was part of God’s method of instruction to Lehi, was not to deceive.

 

I can think of a couple of instances in the temple where we have introductions and explanations given before our attention is directed to the actual ordinance or key instruction.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Critics/skeptics of the Restoration account use the same logic to dismiss the First Vision.   By their logic, the "astonishing influence" that bound Joseph's tongue and the "thick darkness" that gathered around him actually emanated from a benevolent spirit, while the brightness that was "above the sun at noonday" actually emanated from two malevolent spirits.  Again, I don't think doing what's right means that we're going to be spared the sort of opposition Lehi encountered in his vision.  If that is the case, then I'm royally screwed!

 

And? The scripture say he can tranform himself nigh unto a angel of light... I didn't just make it up. If people want to use that reasoning against Joseph's vision, more power to them- doesn't mean the that the teaching is untrue.

[janderich]

Apparently Lehi didn't need to learn anything by the imaginary man's righteousness because he didn't comment on him after the first few verses. Nephi never mentioned him either after giving the vision additonal thought and attention.

 

 

Agreed. Lehi doesn't seem to think the significance of the robed man was much beyond simply marking the beginning of the vision. It doesn't even appear that the man stayed with Lehi. If he had been leading Lehi around the dark and dreary waste for hours, don't you think Lehi would have asked a question to the man right there with him? If he was with Lehi, what happened to him after Lehi prayed and was shown the tree? The simplest explanation (to me) is that God sent a messenger to "usher" Lehi into a vision, and the messenger did his job and left.

The brevity of the account is not a good indication of it's insignificance. This is because Lehi's dream is abridged by Nephi. Nephi says, "And now I, Nephi, do not speak all the words of my father. But, to be short in writing, behold, he saw other multitudes pressing forward..." (1 Ne 8:29-30) and again, "And it came to pass after my father had spoken all the words of his dream or vision, which were many..." (1 Ne 8:34) yet the entire account is only 38 verses. Actually, the fact that Nephi spends time mentioning it at all in his summary gives weight to its importance. 

 

That being said, it appears that Nephi did not see this man in his vision of events which means it may have been a message more specifically directed to Lehi and not Nephi.

Edited August 6, 2014 by janderich

[JDave]

 

The brevity of the account is not a good indication of it's insignificance. This is because Lehi's dream is abridged by Nephi. Nephi says, "And now I, Nephi, do not speak all the words of my father. But, to be short in writing, behold, he saw other multitudes pressing forward..." (1 Ne 8:29-30) and again, "And it came to pass after my father had spoken all the words of his dream or vision, which were many..." (1 Ne 8:34) yet the entire account is only 38 verses. Actually, the fact that Nephi spends time mentioning it at all in his summary gives weight to its importance. 

 

That being said, it appears that Nephi did not see this man in his vision of events which means it may have been a message more specifically directed to Lehi and not Nephi.

Brevity aside, you mentioned why it would seem the man was leading Lehi around for hours and I mentioned why it would seem the man was not leading Lehi around. In the end we don't have much to go on. As you even pointed out, it wasn't significant enough for Nephi to comment on in either his vision or his father's vision -- a passing mention in Lehi's dream, and no mention in Nephi's dream. Hard to pull a "Don't trust people" message out of that with any form of exegesis.

At least it seems that all agree that the "Trust God and call on Him in your need" message is clear.

[Alan]

There are differences between the two accounts. Interestingly, Lehi never caught hold of the iron rod.

It seems as soon as he prayed he was instantly there.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Alan

[CV75]

The brevity of the account is not a good indication of it's insignificance. This is because ...

...the significance is in the minds of the person experiencing the vision and those fortunate enough to read his record--it can be different for everyone, and beneficial if applied in faith and with the help of the Spirit.

[nosmelone]

^{If only Martin Harris wouldnt have lost the first 116 pages it surely would have clarified! j/k}

[Ahab]

Based on what is written in the book of Mormon I'm thinking Lehi lost track of the man in the white robe, strayed off of the path or had not yet got on it, and got or was lost. He said those who left the path got lost but he also showed how someone who was lost could get on or back onto the path and then hold onto the rod to it make it all the way to the tree.

And the rod represents the word of God, whether we receive his word through direct revelation, or scriptures written by others who received and shared their own direct revelations from God, or a combination of the two sources of revelation from God.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Ahab

[Kenngo1969]

Apologies if this has already been brought up, but ...  In Nephi's version of the vision (Hey, alliteration!  Cool! ) his guide, escort, what have you, is unquestionably righteous (see 1 Nephi 11:9-11).

Edited August 14, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Alan]

Apologies if this has already been brought up, but ...  In Nephi's version of the vision (Hey, alliteration!  Cool! ) his guide, escort, what have you, is unquestionably righteous (see 1 Nephi 11:9-11).

 

The two don't seem to be the same thing.

Lehi saw a man dressed in a white robe who asked Lehi to follow him.

Nephi didn't claim to see anyone but was in continual communication with the Spirit. In fact it was the Spirit who showed Nephi the dream his father had rehearsed. It was not Nephi's dream. Not only that, but Nephi did not appear to experience the dreary waste nor was he left wandering in the dark for many hours, so it was a different dream.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Alan

[Jeanne]

Please don't CFR me.  But years ago, I read an excerpt from the book/journal written by Lucy Mack Smith, the Prophet's mother.

She stated that Joseph Smith Senior had this kind of dream in his earlier years and related the dream to others in the family.  It has been a long time since I had this book so I can't really remember.  Has anyone read anything similar? 

 

Thanks,

Jeanne

[Calm]

En.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/Joseph_Smith,_Sr.'s_dream_and_Lehi's_vision

Can't make the link work due to the period after Sr. So cut and paste the above and hopefully that will work or google the title without the underlining.

Edited August 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[JAHS]

Please don't CFR me.  But years ago, I read an excerpt from the book/journal written by Lucy Mack Smith, the Prophet's mother.

She stated that Joseph Smith Senior had this kind of dream in his earlier years and related the dream to others in the family.  It has been a long time since I had this book so I can't really remember.  Has anyone read anything similar? 

 

Thanks,

Jeanne

My wife had the same recurring dream before she knew anything about the Church or the Book of Mormon. Needless to say she was quite surprised when she not only discovered her dream in the Book of Mormon but also found the interpretation to her dream which she had wondered about her whole life. Shortly thereafter she was baptized. Apparently God can and does give similar visions to different people.

[Kenngo1969]

The two don't seem to be the same thing.

Lehi saw a man dressed in a white robe who asked Lehi to follow him.

Nephi didn't claim to see anyone ... [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

Hmmm ...  That doesn't seem to square well with what Nephi says in 1 Nephi 11:11 :

 

 

8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto thetree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and thewhiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

 9 And it came to pass after I had seen the tree, I said unto the Spirit: I behold thou hast shown unto me the tree which is precious above all.

 10 And he said unto me: What desirest thou?

 11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

 

[Jeanne]

My wife had the same recurring dream before she knew anything about the Church or the Book of Mormon. Needless to say she was quite surprised when she not only discovered her dream in the Book of Mormon but also found the interpretation to her dream which she had wondered about her whole life. Shortly thereafter she was baptized. Apparently God can and does give similar visions to different people.

 

My wife had the same recurring dream before she knew anything about the Church or the Book of Mormon. Needless to say she was quite surprised when she not only discovered her dream in the Book of Mormon but also found the interpretation to her dream which she had wondered about her whole life. Shortly thereafter she was baptized. Apparently God can and does give similar visions to different people.

Wow...that is so great.  Thanks for sharing that.  Sometimes I think dreams coincide with going in positive directions.

[Alan]

Hmmm ...  That doesn't seem to square well with what Nephi says in 1 Nephi 11:11 :

 

 

 

I stand corrected.

However, my point about the two dreams being different dreams still holds in my view. Nephi was not experiencing a re-run of Lehi's dream.