Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted July 22, 2014 Popular Post Posted July 22, 2014 I saw this extremely politically incorrect blog post on a link from Daniel Peterson's blog. I smiled at the hyperbole. But then I reflected to myself: Is it really hyperbole? I'm afraid the trend has more than manifested itself among our own people in the movement on the part of some to call good evil and evil good in the matter of holding out hope that homosexual behavior will one day be tolerated -- nay, sanctified -- in the Church of Jesus Christ. 8
JLHPROF Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 the matter of holding out hope that homosexual behavior will one day be tolerated -- nay, sanctified -- in the Church of Jesus Christ. That's because if history has taught us anything it's that time is the great changer of minds. All of those things that we dread today will be tolerated tonight and will be embraced tomorrow unless God (or I suppose man) does something to prevent it. We will see SSM in the Church. We will see OW getting their fondest dreams. We will see many other things that currently are seen as evil accepted as good. UNLESS God directly steps in and stops it or we have sufficient understanding of God's will to stop it for him. But history isn't exactly on our side and God gives us agency. 1
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted July 22, 2014 Author Popular Post Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) That's because if history has taught us anything it's that time is the great changer of minds. All of those things that we dread today will be tolerated tonight and will be embraced tomorrow unless God (or I suppose man) does something to prevent it. We will see SSM in the Church. We will see OW getting their fondest dreams. We will see many other things that currently are seen as evil accepted as good. UNLESS God directly steps in and stops it or we have sufficient understanding of God's will to stop it for him. But history isn't exactly on our side and God gives us agency.If I were a betting man, I'd say my money is on God. And this is still His Church. Edited July 22, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 6
BCSpace Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 I especially appreciated this point: ...you might as well finally stand up and condemn it. There is no middle ground anymore. There never was to begin with, but even the illusion is fading. Either fight for life, family, and Truth, or else join the ranks of the nihilists and hedonists. The distinction between the two sides is not a murky no-man’s land colored in hues of gray; it is a stark and sudden line in the concrete. You are either for truth or you are not. 4
cinepro Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Wow. I had totally missed the Tony Dungy situation. That's just crazy.
BCSpace Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 That's because if history has taught us anything it's that time is the great changer of minds. All of those things that we dread today will be tolerated tonight and will be embraced tomorrow unless God (or I suppose man) does something to prevent it. We will see SSM in the Church. We will see OW getting their fondest dreams. We will see many other things that currently are seen as evil accepted as good. UNLESS God directly steps in and stops it or we have sufficient understanding of God's will to stop it for him. But history isn't exactly on our side and God gives us agency. History is against you. The Church has not changed it's doctrine that significantly since it's inception. Unbelievers are tempted to point to plural marriage or the priesthood ban. But plural marriage remains just as much an official doctrine of the Church as it did in the 1800's. So likewise, in it's latest topical addition, the ban is upheld to have been inspired. Fast forward to today and homosexuality is still sinful behavior and women are no closer to being ordained to the priesthood. Even back in the early days of the Church when women were called to be healers, it was based on their knowledge of healthcare or their spirituality in praying for the sick and possibly having healing as a gift of the Spirit. But even then they weren't ordained. Say rather that God will help his Church find ways to preserve the doctrines and deflect the latest in P.C. fads and fraudulent criticism. 3
Mystery Meat Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 So likewise, in it's latest topical addition, the ban is upheld to have been inspired. Wrong. They said they didn't know if it was inspired. Claiming they said it was definitively inspired is just as wrong as saying they said it was definitively not inspired.
The Nehor Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 So should we start killing them or wait for them to start killing us?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 Wrong. They said they didn't know if it was inspired. Claiming they said it was definitively inspired is just as wrong as saying they said it was definitively not inspired.Where does it say they didn't know if it was inspired? I just read through the Gospel Topics entry, and I couldn't find such a statement.
JLHPROF Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) History is against you. The Church has not changed it's doctrine that significantly since it's inception. I would have to disagree with this (although that qualifier "significantly" is probably where we disagree). Which is why I can foresee a day when SSM or the OW crowd might manage to get their way if left to us mortals. But I certainly hope God intervenes first. Unbelievers are tempted to point to plural marriage or the priesthood ban. But plural marriage remains just as much an official doctrine of the Church as it did in the 1800's. So likewise, in it's latest topical addition, the ban is upheld to have been inspired. But the reasons behind both of these changes (regardless whether they were by revelation or not) are both clearly connected to social pressures. Perhaps God was only responding to the prayers of his people, but it was still social pressure that led to the revelation. I don't agree with OW or the SSM proponents but they DO have history on their side. Say rather that God will help his Church find ways to preserve the doctrines and deflect the latest in P.C. fads and fraudulent criticism. I'd like to think so but there are many instances where changes were made due to current social trends. The only remaining debate is whether God was behind them, which I think sometimes he was and sometimes he wasn't. Edited July 23, 2014 by JLHPROF
Calm Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) It makes sense that God institute changes in policies as the community changes so i would expect some changes for a faith system with a belief in continuing revelation. Pointing to two examples of where this happens without regarding where it hasn't happened is rather one sided though, IMO. Edited July 23, 2014 by calmoriah
teddyaware Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) I would have to disagree with this (although that qualifier "significantly" is probably where we disagree). Which is why I can foresee a day when SSM or the OW crowd manage to get their way if left to us mortals. But I certainly hope God intervenes first. Do I presume correctly, then, you are entertaining real doubts that the prophecies that speak of the glorious triumph of the Restored Church are going to be fulfilled? Edited July 23, 2014 by teddyaware
JLHPROF Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Do I presume correctly, then, you are entertaining real doubts that the prophecies that speak of the glorious triumph of the Restored Church are going to be fulfilled? No, I fully believe in those prophecies, but only the fact that I also believe in the prophecies of setting the Church in order before the end allows me to do so.We seem to have this strange vision of the Church growing and growing until it becomes the Kingdom of God on earth exactly as it is. Prophecy tells us that members will be winnowed down to the absolutely faithful and the Church on earth will match the order of the eternities. But I have no doubts that the restored Church will eventually be matched to the eternal pattern and rise triumphant. Edited July 23, 2014 by JLHPROF
JLHPROF Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 It makes sense that God institute changes in policies as the community changes so i would expect some changes for a faith system with a belief in continuing revelation. Pointing to two examples of where this happens without regarding where it hasn't happened is rather one sided though, IMO. The argument in question though isn't "where it hasn't happened". The question is "where it hasn't happened, is it inevitable that it will?"
USU78 Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I saw this extremely politically incorrect blog post on a link from Daniel Peterson's blog. I smiled at the hyperbole. But then I reflected to myself: Is it really hyperbole? I'm afraid the trend has more than manifested itself among our own people in the movement on the part of some to call good evil and evil good in the matter of holding out hope that homosexual behavior will one day be tolerated -- nay, sanctified -- in the Church of Jesus Christ. I applauded Herrn Professor Doktor for posting it on his blog (and Facebook) and I applaud you for posting it here. 3
Mystery Meat Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Where does it say they didn't know if it was inspired? I just read through the Gospel Topics entry, and I couldn't find such a statement. You are right. I went back and reread it. They don't say that. But they didn't exactly say that it was inspired either.
teddyaware Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) No, I fully believe in those prophecies, but only the fact that I also believe in the prophecies of setting the Church in order before the end allows me to do so. We seem to have this strange vision of the Church growing and growing until it becomes the Kingdom of God on earth exactly as it is. Prophecy tells us that members will be winnowed down to the absolutely faithful and the Church on earth will match the order of the eternities. But I have no doubts that the restored Church will eventually be matched to the eternal pattern and rise triumphant. Glad you cleared it up. You didn't seem like the type. I believe the only way SSM will ever be embraced is by some faction that will breakoff from the First Presidency and then go out and do their own thing. This potential schism will not occur until after all possible pressure has been applied (a la KK) to to try to force the leaders to relent. Edited July 23, 2014 by teddyaware
strappinglad Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I suspect the membership of the Church will remain at an itsy bitsy, teensy, weensy yellow polka-dot percentage of the earth's population until near the end of the millennium. There will be a thinning of the herd shortly before the millennium , and it will be severe, upwards of 50% .I foresee entire congregations falling away/splitting off/apostatizing over some of the issues heretofore mentioned. ( It should be noted that I am not a prophet , but I could play one on TV. ) 2
JLHPROF Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Glad you cleared it up. You didn't seem like the type.I believe the only way SSM will ever be embraced is by some faction that will breakoff from the First Presidency and then go out and do their own thing. This potential schism will not occur until after all possible pressure has been applied (a la KK) to to try to force the leaders to relent. Just to be clear though, the reason that will require the scripturally prophesied setting in order of the Church will have to be that there will be aspects of the Church that are out of order. I am merely speculating that in light of social pressures SSM and OW could be two of the areas where we get "out of order".I don't think ANY prophecy defines exactly how the Church will be out of order, just that it will be.
teddyaware Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Just to be clear though, the reason that will require the scripturally prophesied setting in order of the Church will have to be that there will be aspects of the Church that are out of order. I am merely speculating that in light of social pressures SSM and OW could be two of the areas where we get "out of order". I don't think ANY prophecy defines exactly how the Church will be out of order, just that it will be. I don't believe the First Presidency will ever allow the Church of the Dispensation of the Fullness of times to be led to a place where it's "out of order." There may be renegade factions that will try but they'll either have to repent or be forcibly expelled. Edited July 23, 2014 by teddyaware
BCSpace Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I'd like to think so but there are many instances where changes were made due to current social trends. The only remaining debate is whether God was behind them, which I think sometimes he was and sometimes he wasn't. That's the crux of the issue. Do you believe or not? We have seen that those who don't believe and try to generate social pressure to change the Church are subject to excommunication. The Church didn't really change on either of those issue in response to social pressure. They merely presented a difference face of the same doctrine.
JLHPROF Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 That's the crux of the issue. Do you believe or not? We have seen that those who don't believe and try to generate social pressure to change the Church are subject to excommunication. The Church didn't really change on either of those issue in response to social pressure. They merely presented a difference face of the same doctrine. The Church has changed many times due to social pressure. But as I said, sometimes God was responding to the pressure with a new revelation and sometimes man was responding to the pressure when they should have stood firm. The debate is which were which (and I don't think it's really provable).
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I smiled at the hyperbole. I'm sincerely having a hard time seeing anything you might have interpreted as hyperbole. 1
wenglund Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I saw this extremely politically incorrect blog post on a link from Daniel Peterson's blog. I smiled at the hyperbole. But then I reflected to myself: Is it really hyperbole? I'm afraid the trend has more than manifested itself among our own people in the movement on the part of some to call good evil and evil good in the matter of holding out hope that homosexual behavior will one day be tolerated -- nay, sanctified -- in the Church of Jesus Christ. Loved the Blog. Walsh is a plain-speaking man after my own heart. Because of this, however, it wouldn't surprise me if the local supporters of homosexual causes (certain moderators included) lock down this thread. Enjoy it why you can. [thumbs up] Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2014 Author Posted July 23, 2014 I don't believe the First Presidency will ever allow the Church of the Dispensation of the Fullness of times to be led to a place where it's "out of order." There may be renegade factions that will try but they'll either have to repent or be forcibly expelled.If past experience is any guide, the schismatic factions find themselves on the outside looking in e'er they can effect any meaningful change within the Church. I'm confident that will continue to be the case.
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