teddyaware Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) So do you not believe in the other half of the couplet? Do you not believe that we can become God's too?Of course I do! That's why in one of my posts to you I made it a point to say that for that all eternity we were the "light of truth" as well. We may become like Heavenly Father for 2 primary reasons: 1 He is the Father of our spirits; and as a consequence, through Christ we can "grow up" to be like Him. 2. Even before our spirit birth to our Heavenly Parents, the light of truth was (and still is) very the essence of who and what we are. Edited July 12, 2014 by teddyaware
saemo Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 "why redefine English words"You mean like "being"?: a living thing: the state of existing: the most important or basic part of a person's mind or selfWhat has been redefined?Nice dodge though.
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Of course I do! That's why in one of my posts to you I made it a point to say that for that all eternity we were the "light of truth" as well. We may become like Heavenly Father for 2 primary reasons: 1 He is the Father of our spirits; and as a consequence, through Christ we can "grow up" to be like Him. 2. Even before our spirit birth to our Heavenly Parents, the light of truth was (and still is) very the essence of who and what we are. Well, if we can grow to be like him, why is it so hard to believe he grew to his current station? It makes absolutely no sense to say God has always been God but then we can grow to become Gods. When we become Gods will our children also erroneously believe we have always been Gods? 1
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Infinite and eternal mean infinite and eternal. If you believe your God has revealed to you that He is not infinite or eternal, well, why redefine English words? Why not use the words that accurately describe what you believe? Finite and limited, perhaps? Oh God did change the word usage, he said from eternity to eternity and promised us eternal lives in the eternities (pl). Clearly an eternity according to God has a time frame. And infinite meaning "unmeasurable" would be correct. Infinite meaning "unending time and space" would be incorrect. Both are accepted definitions for the word in English. 2
teddyaware Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Well, if we can grow to be like him, why is it so hard to believe he grew to his current station? It makes absolutely no sense to say God has always been God but then we can grow to become Gods. When we become Gods will our children also erroneously believe we have always been Gods? You are making presumptions. I do believe our Father was once like us, exactly as you believe. All I'm saying is that in 2 Nephi 2 Lehi teaches that there never was a time when there wasn't a God and there never was a time when there wasn't opposition to God. Make of Lehi's words whatever you will. How one solves this mystery is likely the stuff of the "sealed portion" or of the mysteries that will only be revealed to the exalted in heaven. Edited July 13, 2014 by teddyaware 2
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 You are making presumptions. I do believe our Father was once like us, exactly as you believe. All I'm saying is that in 2 Nephi 2 Lehi teaches that there never was a time when there wasn't a God and there never was a time when there wasn't opposition to God. Make of Lehi's words whatever you will. How one solves this mystery is likely the stuff of the "sealed portion" or of the mysteries that will only be revealed to the exalted in heaven. My apologies. I thought you were arguing that Heavenly Father had always been God and was never mortal like us.
teddyaware Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 My apologies. I thought you were arguing that Heavenly Father had always been God and was never mortal like us. No problemo. My sparsity of language and lack of specificity in those posts was bound to cause some misunderstanding.
ERayR Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Well, if you don't accept any mormon scripture or mormon prophetic teachings, then of course, you would see things that way.But as I have already shown, Mormon teachings are based on additional revelation, and additional revelation creates additional information. Inifinite and eternal cannot be held to their limited definition within mormon doctrine. We did not redefine them, God himself did when he spoke of multiple eternities. And since Mormons reject the creed that teaches of omnipresence then the definition of infinite doesn't work either as applied to God. But since you (and Danielwoods) aren't Mormon, of course you won't agree. You don't accept the source of my definitions. I can' agree with this. Infinite and eternal mean just that, Mormon or not. What you are reading is in some instances referring to no beginning or end. In others it refers so long stretches of eternity/infinity.
Ahab Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 You are making presumptions. I do believe our Father was once like us, exactly as you believe. All I'm saying is that in 2 Nephi 2 Lehi teaches that there never was a time when there wasn't a God and there never was a time when there wasn't opposition to God. Make of Lehi's words whatever you will. How one solves this mystery is likely the stuff of the "sealed portion" or of the mysteries that will only be revealed to the exalted in heaven.It is a bit complex but not too hard for us to understand now. An eternity refers to something that has no beginning or end, and since nobody has any ultimate beginning each one of us is already experiencing and will go on experiencing our own eternity regardless of how much glory we have or will get.It only appears to be a dilemma to those who think there has to have been an ultimate beginnning, but that has never been reality.
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 I can' agree with this. Infinite and eternal mean just that, Mormon or not. What you are reading is in some instances referring to no beginning or end. In others it refers so long stretches of eternity/infinity. Of course you don't have to agree. But to me there is ample evidence in the scriptures and prophetic teachings that "an eternity" is a finite measure of time, like an Eon, an Era, an Age.There is no other way that I can see to reconcile the equally valid Mormon doctrines that God is eternal and that God was not always God but became so at some point.
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) It is a bit complex but not too hard for us to understand now. An eternity refers to something that has no beginning or end, and since nobody has any ultimate beginning each one of us is already experiencing and will go on experiencing our own eternity regardless of how much glory we have or will get.It only appears to be a dilemma to those who think there has to have been an ultimate beginnning, but that has never been reality. I don't believe there is an ultimate beginning. But because God is described as eternal and we know there was a time before he was God, either his eternal nature refers to his existence even before he was God (in which case we are all eternal), or eternal describes a limited time span as Joseph Smith and modern revelation hints at. So said William W. Phelps, the Prophet Joseph’s scribe, in a letter to the Prophet’s brother, William Smith, in 1844. Shortly thereafter, the Church’s official periodical published Phelps’ statement, with one small editorial addition:Well, now, Brother William, when the house of Israel begin to come into the glorious mysteries of the kingdom, and find that Jesus Christ, whose goings forth, as the prophets said, have been from of old, from eternity; and that eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years…… eternity, agreeably to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system (not the world) almost two thousand five hundred and fifty five millions of years… Times & Seasons 5 no. 24 (1 Jan. 1844), 758 (emphasis added). Edited July 13, 2014 by JLHPROF
Ahab Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 I don't believe there is an ultimate beginning. But because God is described as eternal and we know there was a time before he was God, either his eternal nature refers to his existence even before he was God (in which case we are all eternal), or eternal describes a limited time span as Joseph Smith and modern revelation hints at.The idea that there was a time when God was not God is a misunderstanding, often based on a misunderstanding of something the prophet Joseph Smith said.When he said what he said he meant there was a time when our Father (who we usually refer to as God) was not our Father, and going even deeper, by that he meant there was a time when our Father had not as yet done his part to give birth to us as his children, or even had not yet done his part to become a Father to anyone, and was not even married to a woman with whom he could have children, and going even deeper, had not even been born through his parents, and we could go on even deeper than that. But he and what he is has always existed in some form in and through his parents as the kind of being we refer to as God, and that kind of being has always existed forever.And like I was saying, each one of us is an eternal or eternal being and there is more than one eternal because there is more than one of us, with us in this case being all of us who are the same kind of being as our Father, which and who we refer to as God.
Ahab Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 I don't believe there is an ultimate beginning. But because God is described as eternal and we know there was a time before he was God, either his eternal nature refers to his existence even before he was God (in which case we are all eternal), or eternal describes a limited time span as Joseph Smith and modern revelation hints at.Intreresting addition to your earlier post.I'm now wondering if that time period of that system of things could maybe refer to how long our Father has been an exalted Father, but at this point I need to hear more from our Father about that.
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 The idea that there was a time when God was not God is a misunderstanding, often based on a misunderstanding of something the prophet Joseph Smith said.When he said what he said he meant there was a time when our Father (who we usually refer to as God) was not our Father, and going even deeper, by that he meant there was a time when our Father had not as yet done his part to give birth to us as his children, or even had not yet done his part to become a Father to anyone, and was not even married to a woman with whom he could have children, and going even deeper, had not even been born through his parents, and we could go on even deeper than that. But he and what he is has always existed in some form in and through his parents as the kind of being we refer to as God, and that kind of being has always existed forever.And like I was saying, each one of us is an eternal or eternal being and there is more than one eternal because there is more than one of us, with us in this case being all of us who are the same kind of being as our Father, which and who we refer to as God. Ok, I read that twice. Do you believe the individual we call Heavenly Father has always been God as he is now? Or do you believe he was once as we are and there was another God/Heavenly Father over his world?
thesometimesaint Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Ok, I read that twice. Do you believe the individual we call Heavenly Father has always been God as he is now? Or do you believe he was once as we are and there was another God/Heavenly Father over his world? Such is possible within our Church. Our God is the only God with which we have anything to do with. IE; I'm a father and a Grandfather. I'm the only father my children recognize as their father. I also have a father, but that has no effect on me being a father. Edited July 13, 2014 by thesometimesaint 2
Garden Girl Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 I think my favorite scripture, and I love many scriptures, is this one of promise... D&C 101:32-34..."Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things-- Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof--Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven. Ponder just what this means... i.e., that while we have many answers that have been revealed, there is much that we do not know, much that we think we know... that the Lord shall reveal all things to us... including answers to the very questions asked here, and speculations, in this thread... How I look forward to receiving that knowledge... GG
mfbukowski Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Infinite and eternal mean infinite and eternal. If you believe your God has revealed to you that He is not infinite or eternal, well, why redefine English words? Why not use the words that accurately describe what you believe? Finite and limited, perhaps?Aren't semantic arguments fun?? You get to argue and nobody wins! What a blast! "Accurately describe what you believe"? Can we get into your head to see if they accurately describe it or not? Can you be wrong about a description of what you think you believe? How could we know that? What if you get the description of what you think you believe right but are wrong that you actually believe it? 1
Garden Girl Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Aren't semantic arguments fun?? You get to argue and nobody wins! What a blast!"Accurately describe what you believe"? Can we get into your head to see if they accurately describe it or not? Can you be wrong about a description of what you think you believe? How could we know that?What if you get the description of what you think you believe right but are wrong that you actually believe it? See the scripture in my post just above yours... GG
mfbukowski Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 : a living thing : the state of existing : the most important or basic part of a person's mind or self What has been redefined? Nice dodge though.What is NOT in the "state of existing"? If it is not in that state it is not a "what". What use is the word? What does it describe? How do you decide what "part" of a person's "mind" is "most important"? How do you divide a mind into parts? How does a mind belong to a person that it would be something he owns? Most importantly what is a "mind" in the first place? Is it your brain? Is it pictures in your brain? Is it your personality? Does it include or exclude your "self"? Oh wait you have defined it so it DOES include one's "self" so the two cannot be separated. If you change your mind do you change your self? Do you have the same mind you had as a child? Are you the same person you were as a child? If someone has a stroke and forgets who he is, is he the same person? Isn't this fun? Is it material? 1
mfbukowski Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 No problemo. My sparsity of language and lack of specificity in those posts was bound to cause some misunderstanding. Oh we haven't scratched the surface! The problem is not YOUR language- or anyones- it is what language itself can do. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 It is a bit complex but not too hard for us to understand now. An eternity refers to something that has no beginning or end, and since nobody has any ultimate beginning each one of us is already experiencing and will go on experiencing our own eternity regardless of how much glory we have or will get. It only appears to be a dilemma to those who think there has to have been an ultimate beginnning, but that has never been reality.Is a circle or a ring an eternity then?
mfbukowski Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 See the scripture in my post just above yours... GG We are on the same wavelength- my point is just that when we base an argument on semantic games, there is no end to it. I was going to ask what kind of "things" we were talking about and how a thing could be true, but I won't.
Calm Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) I love the idea of the Ents' language where they name something by telling all its history. And there is no word for yes or no because the why of the answer is used to answer.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EntishPerhaps when we have eternity to discuss in we will begin to use language in such a more detailed way...or if we communicate spirit to spirit/mind to mind perhaps words will no longer exist in the same way but we communicate in thought packages with 'words', images, sounds, smells, emotions all transferred at once and then embellished by the receiver.I think Tolkien was brilliant (and other myth makers) to make God's language music. Edited July 14, 2014 by calmoriah
mfbukowski Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 OK I will shut up now. The point is that any linguistic phrase can be deconstructed and made meaningless. If it has no practical consequences in your life, semantic discussions can be pretty useless.
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