Did Heavenly Father Live As We Currently Live?

[danielwoods]

I think the issue is what exactly do we mean by infinite, it seems to me that in Mormon theology when this is applied to God it is done as a form of hyperbole intended to denote awe or praise rather than actuality, but we carry enough Protestant and Catholic baggage with us that such usages become a stumbling block to consistency, so we go through mental contortions to hold onto the baggage which it would be better to just discard.

 

Infinitude is a concept (I learned first from math), as applied to God, it becomes a concept we understand his part of his nature or being. 

 

To discard it would be to create another problem of infinite regress. 

[JLHPROF]

There is no such thing as infinity plus one. 

 

And the answer is no. The moment before he decided to create us and share life with us, he shared life within the trinity. 

 

And what of the before and the after?  Did he create humans before that "moment"?  Will he do it again after we are perfected and go to live with him forever?  What will we do - sit at his feet and play the harp for eternity?

 

There is so much more to pre-creation, this creation, and what comes after scattered throughout all the scripture.  This trinity existing somewhere/everywhere doing nothing until we are created, and then allowing us to live with them for some reason as long as we believe in their goodness (but with no requirement other than to believe) and no information on what happens next or what our purpose is, or what their purpose is.

 

I have a real issue accepting this model as anything worth believing, but I accept that there are many who find comfort in it.  I need a little more purpose of existence and future in my existence, and frankly in the existence of any deity I worship.

Edited July 11, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

There is no such thing as infinity plus one. 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_plus_1

[saemo]

do you not believe that God's creations grow in number and in ability to glorify Him? If so, then God progresses in glory at the very least.

To glorify, means to give praise and honor. When we glorify God, it is in the meaning of worshipping God. God does not increase or decrease in anything, because we worship Him or don't, or worship Him in greater or lesser numbers. All glory and honor are already God's.

Edited July 11, 2014 by saemo

[JLHPROF]

To glorify, means to give praise and honor. When we glorify God, it is in the meaning of worshipping God. God does not increase or decrease in anything, because we worship Him or don't, or worship Him in greater or lesser numbers. All glory and honor are already God's.

 

Then define "glory" or "praise" or "honor".  What kind of glory does God have?  How is God honored (without those to honor him)?  How is God praised (without those to praise him)?

To say all glory, praise and honor are already God's without our worship means little if the words have no meaning or definition.

[saemo]

Then define "glory" or "praise" or "honor".  What kind of glory does God have?  How is God honored (without those to honor him)?  How is God praised (without those to praise him)?

To say all glory, praise and honor are already God's without our worship means little if the words have no meaning or definition.

Glorify means to give praise honor. When we glorify God we make the Glory of God visible, to ourselves and others. We make visible what exists, or more precisely, Who Exists.

 

What is God's Glory? You can find descriptors and praises to His Glory, and it is found throughout scripture. God's Glory is His holiness, perfection, love, compassion, care and all the attributes of God, always present, all knowledgeable, etc.

 

"Glory" itself is defined as something that has a distinguished quality, is deserving of praise, or is of great beauty and splendor.

Edited July 11, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_plus_1

When referring to the infinite and eternal attribute of God, it is reference to time and space. Eternal is time, that has both no beginning or end. Infinity is space, that is, that God exists without limit. So, saying God is infinite and eternal, we're saying that God has no beginning, no end, and has no limit to His existence.

 

infinity + 1 = infinity, and does not indicate that God increases (or decreases, infinity-1?). "Infinity" being the word we use for "a really big number that has no limit". So, yes, infinity + 1 has no real meaning, because infinity is always +1, or +10000, or +1000000000000000. It is still infinity, because infinity is a really big number that has no limit.

 

If we say, God is infinite, we're saying God has no limit to His existence. If we say God is infinite+1, we're still saying God has no limit to His existence.

Edited July 11, 2014 by saemo

[Calm]

But the latter allows for God to grow...

The question for me is what does "no limits" even mean if he is limited to being unable to progress.

[danielwoods]

But the latter allows for God to grow...

The question for me is what does "no limits" even mean if he is limited to being unable to progress.

 

IF you're able to add one to infinity, you didn't actually have infinity to start with. 

 

This gets to a very core difference between orthodox and mormon theology. Progression indicates something we do as humans, but it doesn't apply to God. That's why I posed the question, can an infinite being progress? 

 

If we posit a God that isn't Eternal and Infinite, that progresses (as mormon theology does), then the question is where did he/she/it come from? Infinite regression. (He had parents and progressed, and he had parents and progressed... and Ad Infinitum), so the question is which infinite does one want to posit? 

[JLHPROF]

 

IF you're able to add one to infinity, you didn't actually have infinity to start with. 

 

This gets to a very core difference between orthodox and mormon theology. Progression indicates something we do as humans, but it doesn't apply to God. That's why I posed the question, can an infinite being progress? 

 

If we posit a God that isn't Eternal and Infinite, that progresses (as mormon theology does), then the question is where did he/she/it come from? Infinite regression. (He had parents and progressed, and he had parents and progressed... and Ad Infinitum), so the question is which infinite does one want to posit? 

 

I don't believe in an infinite God of any sort, (or really in anything infinite existing outside the realms of higher mathematics).

God had a beginning, but it was outside of this creation/eternity.  How can something be outside of eternity?  In Mormon scripture and a few Bible translations, quite easily.

[Alan]

 

As for myself, I will stick to the position taught by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Lorenzo Snow and pretty much all the prophets of our dispensation.

 

Is that just your position regarding this matter, or would you include other teachings (Adam-God, plural marriage, blood atonement, African priesthood ban etc)?

I'm not trying to derail, just curious.

[JLHPROF]

Is that just your position regarding this matter, or would you include other teachings (Adam-God, plural marriage, blood atonement, African priesthood ban etc)?

I'm not trying to derail, just curious.

 

I think there is more doctrine behind Adam-God, Blood Atonement, and Plural Marriage than we are willing to admit.  Perhaps not in their original 100% form, but I think we ignore the doctrinal principles that brought about each belief to often.

As for the priesthood ban, as the recent article showed, there was no actual doctrinal backing for that.

But those teachings all are no longer part of the Church today in really any form.  Whereas the teachings in the KFD that we have been discussing have been taught (in one degree or another) by pretty much every prophet of the dispensation.  We can certainly disagree with them, but I think we are on shakier doctrinal ground than the other 4 doctrines you mention.  The connection between God the Father and us is rooted pretty deep in many aspects and areas of Mormonism.

Edited July 12, 2014 by JLHPROF

[teddyaware]

I don't believe in an infinite God of any sort, (or really in anything infinite existing outside the realms of higher mathematics).

God had a beginning, but it was outside of this creation/eternity.  How can something be outside of eternity?  In Mormon scripture and a few Bible translations, quite easily.

In most instances, before I post something on this board I really try to think my points through before clicking on the "post" icon. I especially try to be sure my ideas comport with the Standard Works. In my opinion, what you posted above was not thought through because it is not in harmony with the Standard Works. I will be interested to see how you square the above ideas with the following:

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. (D&C 20)

Edited July 12, 2014 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

In most instances, before I post something on this board I really try to think my points through before clicking on the "post" icon. I especially try to be sure my ideas comport with the Standard Works. In my opinion, what you posted above was not thought through because it is not in harmony with the Standard Works. I will be interested to see how you square the above ideas with the following:

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. (D&C 20)

 

It's an issue of the definition of "infinite" as Cal pointed out.  The same thing applies to eternal - Joseph Smith gave a finite number to an eternity.  Our scriptures speak frequently of "the eternities" plural or living from "eternity to eternity".  This means an eternity isn't actually "eternal" but probably refers to a creation period.

Why should "infinite" be any different?  And since infinite is as much a function of size or extent as it is of time, to believe in an infinite God would be to believe in a God that is everywhere all the time in and through everything (a creed that Mormons reject).   We can't say he's infinite in time but not in space since the word applies to both if we are going to take it literally.

 

Infinite when applied to God means the same thing as eternal.  Not "without beginning or end" but "from the beginning to the end".

[teddyaware]

It's an issue of the definition of "infinite" as Cal pointed out.  The same thing applies to eternal - Joseph Smith gave a finite number to an eternity.  Our scriptures speak frequently of "the eternities" plural or living from "eternity to eternity".  This means an eternity isn't actually "eternal" but probably refers to a creation period.

Why should "infinite" be any different?  And since infinite is as much a function of size or extent as it is of time, to believe in an infinite God would be to believe in a God that is everywhere all the time in and through everything (a creed that Mormons reject).   We can't say he's infinite in time but not in space since the word applies to both if we are going to take it literally.

 

Infinite when applied to God means the same thing as eternal.  Not "without beginning or end" but "from the beginning to the end".

In light of the above, how would harmonize your ideas with the following:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93)

 

[saemo]

It's an issue of the definition of "infinite" as Cal pointed out. The same thing applies to eternal - Joseph Smith gave a finite number to an eternity. Our scriptures speak frequently of "the eternities" plural or living from "eternity to eternity". This means an eternity isn't actually "eternal" but probably refers to a creation period.

Why should "infinite" be any different? And since infinite is as much a function of size or extent as it is of time, to believe in an infinite God would be to believe in a God that is everywhere all the time in and through everything (a creed that Mormons reject). We can't say he's infinite in time but not in space since the word applies to both if we are going to take it literally.

Infinite when applied to God means the same thing as eternal. Not "without beginning or end" but "from the beginning to the end".

Redefining words to mean something completely different makes those words meaningless.

Infinite and eternal mean infinite and eternal, when those two words start getting used to mean NOT infinite and eternal, while simultaneously asserting IS infinite and eternal....the world of ridiculous has been opened. Disciplined thinking gives way to anything goes. Day doesn't really mean day, it means night and water isn't water it is rock. Etc.

Edited July 12, 2014 by saemo

[danielwoods]

^^^^^  Couldn't have said it any better... 

[JLHPROF]

Redefining words to mean something completely different makes those words meaningless.

Infinite and eternal mean infinite and eternal, when those two words start getting used to mean NOT infinite and eternal, while simultaneously asserting IS infinite and eternal....the world of ridiculous has been opened. Disciplined thinking gives way to anything goes. Day doesn't really mean day, it means night and water isn't water it is rock. Etc.

 

Well, if you don't accept any mormon scripture or mormon prophetic teachings, then of course, you would see things that way.

But as I have already shown, Mormon teachings are based on additional revelation, and additional revelation creates additional information.

 

Inifinite and eternal cannot be held to their limited definition within mormon doctrine.  We did not redefine them, God himself did when he spoke of multiple eternities.  And since Mormons reject the creed that teaches of omnipresence then the definition of infinite doesn't work either as applied to God.

 

But since you (and Danielwoods) aren't Mormon, of course you won't agree.  You don't accept the source of my definitions.

[JLHPROF]

In light of the above, how would harmonize your ideas with the following:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93)

 

 

If I failed to differentiate in my posts between "God always having existed" and "God always having existed as God" I apologize.

 

Of course all things have existed, Joseph taught matter cannot be created or destroyed.  God has always existed as the individual, just as we have, just as D&C 93 states.  But when I say God has a beginning I am of course referring to him reaching the station of God.

God has always existed.  God has not always been God.  Just as we will have a day when we reach Godhood, so did He.  This is all through Mormonism, from the scriptures to the prophets to the temple.  If we truly believe we are of the same species as God (and he is our Heavenly Father), then we have to grow into our adulthood.

God said his work and glory is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life - to what end?  To perpetuate his species, just as the father of his spirit did before.  It is the very work of creation.

[teddyaware]

^^^^^  Couldn't have said it any better...

Despite what others might theorize, the Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear that God is infinite and eternal, using the standard definitions of those two words. For the Prophet Lehi tells us, in no uncertain terms, that without a self-existent God there could have been no creation; and that without and infinite and eternal God, all that would exist (if 'exist' is the correct word to use in this instance) is non-existence.

 

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Nephi 2)

 

Edited July 12, 2014 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

Despite what others might theorize, the Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear that God is infinite and eternal, using the standard definitions of those two words. For the Prophet Lehi tells us, in no uncertain terms, that without a self-existent God there could have been no creation; and that without and infinite and eternal God, all that would exist (if 'exist' is the correct word to use in this instance) is non-existence.

 

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Nephi 2)

 

 

Absolutely not the correct interpretation of that scripture.  It in no way requires a self-existent God.  It requires a God that existed at the beginning of this creation, which we know started at some point.  Prior to that it does not require that our same God existed.

This is the very essence of Mormonism, that Gods that exist create new Gods.  EVERYTHING in our scriptures point to that.

Edited July 12, 2014 by JLHPROF

[teddyaware]

If I failed to differentiate in my posts between "God always having existed" and "God always having existed as God" I apologize.

 

Of course all things have existed, Joseph taught matter cannot be created or destroyed.  God has always existed as the individual, just as we have, just as D&C 93 states.  But when I say God has a beginning I am of course referring to him reaching the station of God.

God has always existed.  God has not always been God.  Just as we will have a day when we reach Godhood, so did He.  This is all through Mormonism, from the scriptures to the prophets to the temple.  If we truly believe we are of the same species as God (and he is our Heavenly Father), then we have to grow into our adulthood.

God said his work and glory is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life - to what end?  To perpetuate his species, just as the father of his spirit did before.  It is the very work of creation.

But the key to making the whole thing work is to acknowledge that at the very core and innermost essence of His being, without a beginning God always was divine. Doctrine and Covenants 93 makes it very clear that from all eternity He was the Light of Truth (in essence, we are as well).

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Edited July 12, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Absolutely not the correct interpretation of that scripture.  It in no way requires a self-existent God.  It requires a God that existed at the beginning of this creation, which we know started at some point.  Prior to that it does not require that our same God existed.

This is the very essence of Mormonism, that Gods that exist create new Gods.  EVERYTHING in our scriptures point to that.

But 2 Nephi 2 states that unless there is an eternal opposition in all things -- meaning God and all things good existing on one side of the eternal continuum and the spiritual intent of evil existing on the other -- nothing at all could or would ever exist, as nothing could exist that could bring an end to the state of non-existence. Existence can only exist on the principle of the law of opposition in all things. So there always was a God and there always was spiritual evil functioning in opposition to God, otherwise all that would ever be is nonexistence.

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. (2 Nephi 2)

Edited July 12, 2014 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

But 2 Nephi 2 states that unless there is an eternal opposition in all things -- meaning God and all things good existing on one side of the eternal continuum and spiritual intent and evil existing on the other -- nothing at all could or would ever exist, as nothing could exist that could bring an end to the state of non-existence. Existence can only exist on the principle of the law of opposition in all things. So there always was a God and there always was spiritual evil functioning in opposition to God, otherwise all that would ever be is nonexistence.

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. (2 Nephi 2)

 

So do you not believe in the other half of the couplet?  Do you not believe that we can become God's too?

[saemo]

Well, if you don't accept any mormon scripture or mormon prophetic teachings, then of course, you would see things that way.

But as I have already shown, Mormon teachings are based on additional revelation, and additional revelation creates additional information.

 

Inifinite and eternal cannot be held to their limited definition within mormon doctrine.  We did not redefine them, God himself did when he spoke of multiple eternities.  And since Mormons reject the creed that teaches of omnipresence then the definition of infinite doesn't work either as applied to God.

 

But since you (and Danielwoods) aren't Mormon, of course you won't agree.  You don't accept the source of my definitions.

Infinite and eternal mean infinite and eternal. If you believe your God has revealed to you that He is not infinite or eternal, well, why redefine English words? Why not use the words that accurately describe what you believe? Finite and limited, perhaps?