Did Heavenly Father Live As We Currently Live?

[JLHPROF]

Logic and speculation is in the eye of the interpreter.  One man's speculation is another's absolute certainty.  Make up your story and the logic will justify it.

 

Well, that is of course true.  But it always makes me think of a particular science fiction show, wherein an immortal being has repeated the same pattern SO many times in the eternities, they have nothing left to learn, nowhere to progress to, nothing new to try, that they basically beg to end their lives to end the cycle.

 

The notion that God cannot gain any more knowledge, power, experience etc is frankly, pure hell.  And thank goodness Brigham Young gave a much more sensible alternative to Bruce R. McConkie's version.  I will stick with the prophet on this one.

[Stone holm]

Laughable.God obeys man's statistics.

Well assuming that Heavenly Father's generation consisted of at least 100's of thousands of priesthood bearers who became Heavenly Fathers, it might be slightly presumptious to believe that we are the Spirit Children of the One who also was the Christ of His generation. Possible, but from that point of view somewhat improbable. Then again, there are those who want to throw the whole first part of the Snow Couplet overboard.

[mfbukowski]

Well assuming that Heavenly Father's generation consisted of at least 100's of thousands of priesthood bearers who became Heavenly Fathers, it might be slightly presumptious to believe that we are the Spirit Children of the One who also was the Christ of His generation. Possible, but from that point of view somewhat improbable. Then again, there are those who want to throw the whole first part of the Snow Couplet overboard.

Just plain silly.

 

All you have to have to postulate is that what we call the Big Bang was the start of HF's kingdom and "eternity" as we know it, and that there are universes without number, both "before" the BB and existing elsewhere right now.  Easy.  HF is therefore eternal AND could have had a "Father" that we can know nothing about.

 

Time is man's reckoning, not God's.

[Alan]

What makes you believe that God was never as we were on an earth?

 

Because he is God and always has been in my view.

I do not subscribe to the couplet stating that "as man is God once was and as God is man may become" when "God" refers to the being we address as Father.

However where Jesus (Jehovah) is concerned, the couplet above is true. He once was a man, and we can become like him.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Alan

[mfbukowski]

Because he is God and always has been in my view.

I do not subscribe to the couplet stating that "as man is God once was and as God is man may become" when "God" refers to the being we address as Father.

However where Jesus (Jehovah) is concerned, the couplet above is true. He once was a man, and we can become like him.

Suppose that before time existed, God was as we are now, and since God created time, in THIS time reference, God has "always" been God for all we can possibly know.

[Alan]

Suppose that before time existed, God was as we are now, and since God created time, in THIS time reference, God has "always" been God for all we can possibly know.

 

That too big a "suppose" for me.

[Bart Burk]

I just want to know if he drove a Ford or a Chevy.  It would make my next car choice easier.

[BCSpace]

Did Heavenly Father go through his own life, making mistakes, dealing with challenges, repenting, doing temple ordinances during his life, etc to become God? Through exaltation we can live as God lives, but did God live as we live?

 

Theosis (homo sapiens becomming Divine) is the only known method for creating Gods so I'd say yes, God the Father easily could had led a mortal, sinful life but has repented and taken the necessary steps to become exalted. Perhaps one would be more comfortable with him leading a perfect, sinless mortal life like His Son Jesus did, but I don't see any difference between His Godliness and the Godliness promised to us. 

 

It is official doctrine that God the Father was once a mortal man:

 

 

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268).

 

Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

 

Edited July 7, 2014 by BCSpace

[BCSpace]

Opposing viewpoints - I personally believe that BRM is 100% wrong concerning God's ability to grow in knowledge and that Stoneholm is correct that eternal progression means more than just increasing at a stagnant level.

 

 

I would tend to agree though it's not just BRM, it's James E Talmadge in, iirc, The Articles of Faith which is a doctrinal work.

[mfbukowski]

That too big a "suppose" for me.

You believe that one man's death atoned for the sins of all mankind, but something which is compatible with current scientific theories is "too big a suppose"?

 

 

The multiverse (or meta-universe) is the hypothetical set of infinite or finite possible universes (including the historical universe we consistently experience) that together comprise everything that exists: the entirety of space, time, matter, and energy as well as the physical laws and constants that describe them. The various universes within the multiverse are sometimes called parallel universes.

The structure of the multiverse, the nature of each universe within it and the relationships among the various constituent universes, depend on the specific multiverse hypothesis considered. Multiple universes have been hypothesized in cosmology, physics, astronomy, religion, philosophy, transpersonal psychology and fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes", "quantum universes", "interpenetrating dimensions", "parallel dimensions", "parallel worlds", "alternative realities", "alternative timelines", and "dimensional planes," among others. The term 'multiverse' was coined in 1895 by the American philosopher and psychologist William James in a different context.^[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

[danielwoods]

Theosis (homo sapiens becomming Divine) is the only known method for creating Gods so I'd say yes, God the Father easily could had led a mortal, sinful life but has repented and taken the necessary steps to become exalted. Perhaps one would be more comfortable with him leading a perfect, sinless mortal life like His Son Jesus did, but I don't see any difference between His Godliness and the Godliness promised to us. 

 

It is official doctrine that God the Father was once a mortal man:

 

Apart of this question is the more basic question of how? 

 

How does Theosis happen? 

 

By way of analogy, a person is born a baby, and grows each day by the process of intake of food, which is metabolized by the body, and we grow into adults. 

 

So, the question is what makes a person grow into a god? Is there another God overseeing the whole process? 

[JLHPROF]

 

So, the question is what makes a person grow into a god? Is there another God overseeing the whole process? 

 

 

We grow into a God by fulfilling all the same laws of the office as our God did.  We grow into a God by gaining knowledge line upon line as our God did.  When God makes us joint-heirs with Christ that means we will receive the same inheritance as Christ.  That means all the power and authority that God has and gives to Christ will likewise become ours.

[Stone holm]

Just plain silly.

 

All you have to have to postulate is that what we call the Big Bang was the start of HF's kingdom and "eternity" as we know it, and that there are universes without number, both "before" the BB and existing elsewhere right now.  Easy.  HF is therefore eternal AND could have had a "Father" that we can know nothing about.

 

Time is man's reckoning, not God's.

Not sure this makes a whole lot of sense as far as Mormon teaching is concerned, and also it does not actually respond to what I said. First, we are taught that HF's home world is Kolob, and there is no suggestion whatsoever that Kolob is located in another universe. And if Kolob is located in this universe, then there is no particular reason to suppose that HF's Spiritual Parents lived in another universe either, ad infinitum. With respect to the Big Bang , we have absolutely zero teachings as to how that paradigm of astrophysics fits into our religious views. In fact, even the astrophysists have little or no understanding of the universe before the Big Bang , to say time did not exist is perhaps pushing it. We do not even know if the Big Bang happened once, or whether it is something which happens over and over again. But what is clear, is that in Mormonism, we say we don't have to know that in order to answer the original question. We can leave such questions to those who believe in a God without body, parts or passion and who has no form, who is everywhere, but nowhere in particular.

[mfbukowski]

Not sure this makes a whole lot of sense as far as Mormon teaching is concerned, and also it does not actually respond to what I said. First, we are taught that HF's home world is Kolob, and there is no suggestion whatsoever that Kolob is located in another universe. And if Kolob is located in this universe, then there is no particular reason to suppose that HF's Spiritual Parents lived in another universe either, ad infinitum. With respect to the Big Bang , we have absolutely zero teachings as to how that paradigm of astrophysics fits into our religious views. In fact, even the astrophysists have little or no understanding of the universe before the Big Bang , to say time did not exist is perhaps pushing it. We do not even know if the Big Bang happened once, or whether it is something which happens over and over again. But what is clear, is that in Mormonism, we say we don't have to know that in order to answer the original question. We can leave such questions to those who believe in a God without body, parts or passion and who has no form, who is everywhere, but nowhere in particular.

Sigh. Never mind.

[mfbukowski]

Apart of this question is the more basic question of how? 

 

How does Theosis happen? 

 

By way of analogy, a person is born a baby, and grows each day by the process of intake of food, which is metabolized by the body, and we grow into adults. 

 

So, the question is what makes a person grow into a god? Is there another God overseeing the whole process?

Uh yes,that would be our Father and Mother.

The growth continues forever, if we are worthy to receive that blessing.

[Alan]

You believe that one man's death atoned for the sins of all mankind, but something which is compatible with current scientific theories is "too big a suppose"?

 

 

 

Yes

[Tacenda]

Because he is God and always has been in my view.

I do not subscribe to the couplet stating that "as man is God once was and as God is man may become" when "God" refers to the being we address as Father.

However where Jesus (Jehovah) is concerned, the couplet above is true. He once was a man, and we can become like him.

Sorry for jumping in, so isn't it hugely different though because he was God before he became a man?

Not the reverse? Or here is a new one, were we Gods before our birth also?

[Tacenda]

Apart of this question is the more basic question of how?

How does Theosis happen?

By way of analogy, a person is born a baby, and grows each day by the process of intake of food, which is metabolized by the body, and we grow into adults.

So, the question is what makes a person grow into a god? Is there another God overseeing the whole process?

I listened to a MS podcast recently and it was the daughter of a GA. She is disaffected from the church now, but mentions that growing up she fully believed her father spoke for God in many cases, almost as if he was a God on earth. Maybe that's his training to become a God, acting for him on earth.

[danielwoods]

We grow into a God by fulfilling all the same laws of the office as our God did.  We grow into a God by gaining knowledge line upon line as our God did.  When God makes us joint-heirs with Christ that means we will receive the same inheritance as Christ.  That means all the power and authority that God has and gives to Christ will likewise become ours.

 

 

Uh yes,that would be our Father and Mother.

The growth continues forever, if we are worthy to receive that blessing.

 

 

I listened to a MS podcast recently and it was the daughter of a GA. She is disaffected from the church now, but mentions that growing up she fully believed her father spoke for God in many cases, almost as if he was a God on earth. Maybe that's his training to become a God, acting for him on earth.

 

In thinking about this, it seems to me that this concept only works if you first believe that there is a "God species" and that we are apart of that species. 

[Calm]

Tac, We all act in roles of God from time to time, as parents, when we serve others especially when we step out of our comfort zone.

If "God" is the adult, mature stage of the human spirit (if we think of aging as an analogy for eternal progression only without the limits of mortality and a worn out body interfering with that growth for many), then in the sense that children are human just like their parents, then we could describe ourselves as "gods" before birth being careful not to assume that means more than it really does. Children cannot function well in adult roles, we could not and cannot function that well in godly roles which is why we need so badly for God to be guiding our footsteps right now even as good parents guide their children's footsteps throughout their lives even when in adulthood where their experience and insight is useful.

I think at times God's presence is stronger, the veil is thinner so to speak and we sense him there sharing and supporting his servant. Sometimes we may be confused and translate that experience into seeing the individual as if he is a god himself not just in his potential or as a servant acting for his master, but with the respect and awe that we give to his Master. We may idealize the man because of this and other leaders but that will lead some to disappointment when we realize that such idealization is false especially if we feel we were encouraged in this by others, especially the individuals themselves.

I used to feel sorry for myself because I never felt as a child any sense of awe or feeling that our leaders were my role models, etc. I didn't have "heros" that I looked up to with a special sense of wonder. When I saw it portrayed in stories I felt like I was really missing something. I didn't care about having sports or secular heros, but I really wanted someone besides my parents to feel that connection to in church. Now I've seen so much pain when people have been shocked into losing that belief in their idealized leaders I am grateful. I think it would have made growing up more fun and thrilling and definitely would have helped me not feel so much of an outsider, something kids really need but I got to skip experiencing those growing pains at least so I have reconciled myself to that sense of loss.

I find it endlessly fascinating how different we are in our reactions and yet similar we all are in our needs.

Edited July 8, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

In thinking about this, it seems to me that this concept only works if you first believe that there is a "God species" and that we are apart of that species.

Since LDS do, it works well for us.

[JLHPROF]

In thinking about this, it seems to me that this concept only works if you first believe that there is a "God species" and that we are apart of that species. 

Exactly correct.  And if we are a part of the same species, presumably we are capable of growing to the same level.

[thesometimesaint]

Did Heavenly Father go through his own life, making mistakes, dealing with challenges, repenting, doing temple ordinances during his life, etc to become God? Through exaltation we can live as God lives, but did God live as we live?

 

Yes. The only example we have is Christ whom I'm relatively sure was dealing with ordinary challenges of life under Roman rule, making mistakes, doing Temple Ordinances during his life. What he did not do is repent, because he did not sin.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In thinking about this, it seems to me that this concept only works if you first believe that there is a "God species" and that we are apart of that species. 

It seems the bible thinks this too.

[Tacenda]

Tac, We all act in roles of God from time to time, as parents, when we serve others especially when we step out of our comfort zone.

If "God" is the adult, mature stage of the human spirit (if we think of aging as an analogy for eternal progression only without the limits of mortality and a worn out body interfering with that growth for many), then in the sense that children are human just like their parents, then we could describe ourselves as "gods" before birth being careful not to assume that means more than it really does. Children cannot function well in adult roles, we could not and cannot function that well in godly roles which is why we need so badly for God to be guiding our footsteps right now even as good parents guide their children's footsteps throughout their lives even when in adulthood where their experience and insight is useful.

I think at times God's presence is stronger, the veil is thinner so to speak and we sense him there sharing and supporting his servant. Sometimes we may be confused and translate that experience into seeing the individual as if he is a god himself not just in his potential or as a servant acting for his master, but with the respect and awe that we give to his Master. We may idealize the man because of this and other leaders but that will lead some to disappointment when we realize that such idealization is false especially if we feel we were encouraged in this by others, especially the individuals themselves.

I used to feel sorry for myself because I never felt as a child any sense of awe or feeling that our leaders were my role models, etc. I didn't have "heros" that I looked up to with a special sense of wonder. When I saw it portrayed in stories I felt like I was really missing something. I didn't care about having sports or secular heros, but I really wanted someone besides my parents to feel that connection to in church. Now I've seen so much pain when people have been shocked into losing that belief in their idealized leaders I am grateful. I think it would have made growing up more fun and thrilling and definitely would have helped me not feel so much of an outsider, something kids really need but I got to skip experiencing those growing pains at least so I have reconciled myself to that sense of loss.

I find it endlessly fascinating how different we are in our reactions and yet similar we all are in our needs.

I think maybe we might need to believe in our core ability to discern for ourselves before we leap to others for our discernment.  I think you were just going by that compass.