Did Heavenly Father Live As We Currently Live?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Did Heavenly Father go through his own life, making mistakes, dealing with challenges, repenting, doing temple ordinances during his life, etc to become God? Through exaltation we can live as God lives, but did God live as we live?

[blooit]

I am still unsure of this one.  I am not convinced he lived quite like we did, and certainly not convinced he ever sinned.  On the other hand, I can accept it if he did.

 

I just think our concept of deification is based largely myth and culture than it is on doctrine.

[Duncan]

probably, I can't imagine the plan of salvation was any different in his day than in ours

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I think so. "If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves." "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret." "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's."

 

This is one of the best things about Mormonism, frankly. That the Gods we worship are not eternally perfected Neo-Platonic paradoxes but rather good and faithful and loving people who had to learn line upon line. It's the apotheosis of Humanism, and it gives us hope that inasmuch as we err right now, we can still learn from time to time if we're willing to seek out wisdom from, say, the best books. 

 

(If I may indulge a slight tangent, this view of God should also completely dismantle the entire idea of 'patriarchy' [which, according to the Pearl of Great Price was a late and invasive innovation based on "the government of Ham" and descended from "the fathers in the first generations [that Abraham's tribe had records of, anyway], in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam", which implies that Patriarchy is actually one of the unfortunate results of the Fall and the unrighteous dominion of the 'natural man'. The idea of a Priesthood restriction for women makes no sense scripturally, since we know that there are Goddesses right alongside Gods, and humans [women included] were all created in their image. As Yahweh said in Ezekiel, "Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?")   

[mfbukowski]

I think so. "If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves." "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret." "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's."

 

This is one of the best things about Mormonism, frankly. That the Gods we worship are not eternally perfected Neo-Platonic paradoxes but rather good and faithful and loving people who had to learn line upon line. It's the apotheosis of Humanism, and it gives us hope that inasmuch as we err right now, we can still learn from time to time if we're willing to seek out wisdom from, say, the best books. 

 

(If I may indulge a slight tangent, this view of God should also completely dismantle the entire idea of 'patriarchy' [which, according to the Pearl of Great Price was a late and invasive innovation based on "the government of Ham" and descended from "the fathers in the first generations [that Abraham's tribe had records of, anyway], in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam", which implies that Patriarchy is actually one of the unfortunate results of the Fall and the unrighteous dominion of the 'natural man'. The idea of a Priesthood restriction for women makes no sense scripturally, since we know that there are Goddesses right alongside Gods, and humans [women included] were all created in their image. As Yahweh said in Ezekiel, "Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?")   

I like your post and don't even have a problem with the last paragraph, except one addition.

 

You seem to miss the point that we are still fallen.

 

When we no longer are, and the veil lifts, "your request shall be granted".

 

When I look around I see a lot of evolved apes around, or should I say "natural men".  Someday, Jeremy, someday!

 

I would add that there is a reason for the paucity of revelation in our tradition about Mother.  We aren't ready for it.  We can do better, of course, but we are not ready for the whole enchilada.

 

We are just a few bombs away from the stone age all over again.  If we get beyond that, maybe we will be closer.

Edited July 6, 2014 by mfbukowski

[VideoGameJunkie]

I love all the ideas expressed here. It gives me hope to try and overcome my life mistakes to try and become like our Heavenly Father and return to live with Him for eternity. I have to work on it better though.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

We are still fallen.

 

We don't have to be! That's another great thing: babies are innocent, and we're not punished for Adam's transgression -- and do note that 'transgression' means to over-step - in one sense, it wasn't even a 'sin', especially since Eve teaches that we fell in order to have joy. Rather than an Augustinian Original Sin, we believe in a Fortunate Fall!

 

I think the point is that we're responsible for ourselves, and won't be punished for someone else's misdeeds - if (after we were kicked out of an archetypal Paradise) humans have gathered as patriarchal steppe-nomads to overran the more egalitarian societies that acknowledged a Goddess, if Deuteronomist editors excised feminine deity from the Bible, if early Patriarchs merged Christian philosophy with that of the misogynistic Greeks and brought about an Apostasy from Christ's values, if Catholic and Protestant alike spawned witch hunts, then why do we have to keep following in the grooves they cut thousands of years ago, as if their actions predestined us to follow a particular path? 

 

'Priest' = pres-bous = 'before the cow' = shepherd = someone who ministers to a flock. There is, quite literally, nothing inherently gendered about Priesthood. Christ said it was not a sin to be equal with God; if God has some sort of 'Priesthood' (ie an acknowledged 'power' to help shepherd fellow Intelligences back into the light), and wants to bring all His children to where He is, and His children include women, then what reason would He have for not ordaining them to further His work? It just seems like unrighteous dominion for men to try to keep it to themselves, when God is on record [assuming the records are at least semi-reliable] as recognizing Israel's inequalities and trying to teach people to share with each other follow His ways, which are equal.    

 

When we no longer are, and the veil lifts, "your request shall be granted".

 

Why wait until after the veil is lifted? "In that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God." Trying to pass inequalities off into the next life just gives us an excuse not to rectify the inequalities in this life. 

 

I would add that there is a reason for the paucity of revelation in our tradition about Mother.  We aren't ready for it.  We can do better, of course, but we are not ready for the whole enchilada.

 

Oh, c'mon now, that's speculation, brothah. We're ready for it, the whole enchilada!  

I can't even count the number of times I've heard in Gospel Doctrine classes that we don't talk much about Heavenly Mother to investigators because 'they wouldn't understand' or it's a 'milk before meat' kind of thing, but that's really looking at it backwards - we should see it as an opportunity. As a convert to the Church, I can say that Heavenly Mother is not something to hide under a bushel, She is (or at least should be) a major feature of the Restoration. We know extremely little about God the Father, a few verses at most, but that paucity of information doesn't stop us. 

 

To tie this back to the topic of this thread (yes, this is all related!), if God is an exalted man who was once like us, and Christ teaches us that loving God and our neighbors are the two great commandments, and if Joseph Smith restores the idea that we can all be exalted, then the inescapable conclusion is that there are Goddesses alongside Gods, and we should just acknowledge it plainly. Conservative Evangelicals will go apoplectic over this, of course, and call us names like 'pagan', but what's that to us? Early Mormons were not afraid to talk about these ideas explicitly, but in our attempts to mainstreamize ourselves, we've become reticent about acknowledging feminine divinity proudly. We should be trying to look more like Wicca, not Protestants - heck, we already have a Great Rite of Hieros Gamos in our Temples.  

[ERayR]

Did Heavenly Father go through his own life, making mistakes, dealing with challenges, repenting, doing temple ordinances during his life, etc to become God? Through exaltation we can live as God lives, but did God live as we live?

 

Unknown.  He is smart enough to not tell his kids everything.

[changed]

If the atonement is complete, then it is possible to sin, and then become completely perfect.... so anything is possible.  

Interesting that Jesus said he had not done anything that he had not first seen his father do...  there is some stuff from the temple that Satan tells Eve that is interesting to

[JLHPROF]

Did Heavenly Father go through his own life, making mistakes, dealing with challenges, repenting, doing temple ordinances during his life, etc to become God? Through exaltation we can live as God lives, but did God live as we live?

 

My personal belief (based in Mormon teachings) - Yes, God lived on an earth just as we are doing now.  I don't think there is much in Mormon theology that would allow us to doubt it.

 

Two schools of thought on the nature of his mortal probation:

1. That He was the Savior (Christ) of His Earth.

2. That He was just a man like us who achieved exaltation.

 

There are doctrinal quotes to back up both possibilities.

[JAHS]

Even though Joseph Smith and a few other prophets seemed to believe it I don't think we can tell the world that it is "official " church doctrine. We might call it inspired opinion that may turn out to be true doctrine when we learn more from God Himself on the subject. 

[blooit]

I would add that there is a reason for the paucity of revelation in our tradition about Mother.  We aren't ready for it.  We can do better, of course, but we are not ready for the whole enchilada.

 

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think there are some other possibilities.  First, perhaps we have many heavenly mothers.  I think there is some evidence to support this notion.

 

Second, I wonder sometimes if all descendants of our Heavenly Father are considered "His children."  How else can we have an eternal progeny without supplanting him?  I mean there are those who believe we literally become heavenly fathers in our own right.  I personally don't believe this.  I think we will always be His children, always worship Him, and that our descendants will be his.

 

Just a couple thoughts.  

[mfbukowski]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think there are some other possibilities.  First, perhaps we have many heavenly mothers.  I think there is some evidence to support this notion.

 

Second, I wonder sometimes if all descendants of our Heavenly Father are considered "His children."  How else can we have an eternal progeny without supplanting him?  I mean there are those who believe we literally become heavenly fathers in our own right.  I personally don't believe this.  I think we will always be His children, always worship Him, and that our descendants will be his.

 

Just a couple thoughts.  

Bruce R. McConkie agrees with you on the last point- HF will always be infinitely above us, even though he does not grow in "knowledge" because once you are omniscient and omnipotent there is no where more to "grow"- except his kingdom grows as our kingdoms grow.

 

He will always be our Father and therefore far far far "above" us.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks for the reply Mr. J!
 

We don't have to be! That's another great thing: babies are innocent, and we're not punished for Adam's transgression -- and do note that 'transgression' means to over-step - in one sense, it wasn't even a 'sin', especially since Eve teaches that we fell in order to have joy. Rather than an Augustinian Original Sin, we believe in a Fortunate Fall!

Yep, unfortunately I have sinned.  Maybe you haven't but I have.

So I get my own fall. OOPS. Gosh it is almost as if I should regard myself as if I was Adam or something. Who wudda thunk it?   That means I don't get the whole enchilada on earth, because earth is fallen.  Heck I sin all the time.  Almost can't help myself
 

I think the point is that we're responsible for ourselves, and won't be punished for someone else's misdeeds - if (after we were kicked out of an archetypal Paradise) humans have gathered as patriarchal steppe-nomads to overran the more egalitarian societies that acknowledged a Goddess, if Deuteronomist editors excised feminine deity from the Bible, if early Patriarchs merged Christian philosophy with that of the misogynistic Greeks and brought about an Apostasy from Christ's values, if Catholic and Protestant alike spawned witch hunts, then why do we have to keep following in the grooves they cut thousands of years ago, as if their actions predestined us to follow a particular path?

Well as I said, I have enough of my own misdeeds to worry about.

 

But why would we need a savior if we can have it all now?  I am not sure that the plot of this story is working.....where is the atonement or the need for it with all these Goddess haters running amok?

 

So Mormonism is carrying on the apostate tradition of patriarchy?  Honest - I am not getting this.  All I want is a coherent story.

 

And culture is biology.  We cannot even take care of ourselves without culture.  Right now, cut the internet, and who knows what would happen to society- it would break down.  No banking, no business, no food trucks, no nothing.  Chaos.  Rape murder and plunder just because someone pulled the plug, the worst possible form of men abusing women and each other.   Nope, I don't think we are ready.  It's inside us.  You are such a kind guy you can't see it.
 

'Priest' = pres-bous = 'before the cow' = shepherd = someone who ministers to a flock. There is, quite literally, nothing inherently gendered about Priesthood.

Unless of course the First presidency repudiates the Proclamation on the Family, and suddenly we discover  an entire book of revelation on how Heavenly Mother really has the priesthood and humanity has gone the wrong direction.  OR if Jeremy becomes prophet.   All my best!  This is America!  Who knows what could happen?

Christ said it was not a sin to be equal with God; if God has some sort of 'Priesthood' (ie an acknowledged 'power' to help shepherd fellow Intelligences back into the light), and wants to bring all His children to where He is, and His children include women, then what reason would He have for not ordaining them to further His work?

Because that is not their calling- it is our calling.  We have complimentary roles- yin and yang.  You are forgetting that part.  Self and Other, not Self and Self.  Opposition in all things.  Summer and winter,  Cycles.  Positive and negative, Left and Right, up and down and on and on forever.  Compliments.  Even Gods and Goddesses.  Sexual reproduction= compliments.  Human life depends on them.

I can't think of any other reasons  

 

It just seems like unrighteous dominion for men to try to keep it to themselves, when God is on record [assuming the records are at least semi-reliable] as recognizing Israel's inequalities and trying to teach people to share with each other follow His ways, which are equal.  

Are positive and negative "Equal"?  It's kind of a strange idea.  Are protons and electrons "equal"?  Will one ever BE the other?   Are mars and venus "equal"?  What is "equal" in nature?  All we see are forces in balance. Balance is not "equality", it is two forces offsetting each other, creating the other in opposition.  Neutrons Protons and Electrons.  Strong forces, weak forces. Equality is in the eye of the beholder.  Men and women will never be "equal" in anything.  Will you and I ever be "equal"?  With your talents, I can only wish, but it is never going to happen,

 

Should women be paid the same as men for the same job?  Of course.  Should women have any job she wants?  Of course.  Should women have they same chromosomes as men?  Not possible.  We are different and the existence of the human race depends on that difference.  It's simple biology,  My body will never produce eggs, my wife's will never produce sperm.  That is biology- that is nature.
 

Why wait until after the veil is lifted? "In that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God." Trying to pass inequalities off into the next life just gives us an excuse not to rectify the inequalities in this life. 

I am not at all sure how equality got into that argument or what it has to do with Adam being joyful.

 

We should rectify political "inequalities" in this life.  We should not discriminate on the basis of .... all the usual stuff we find it reprehensible to discriminate upon.  But sexual roles are biological.  We can do nothing to change our talents and how we think.

 

And in the church, the bottom line is that those who see it like I do are in the majority.  Even the majority of sisters appear to be perfectly satisfied not having the priesthood.  Even on this board, I don't think there is a single sister advocating Priesthood for women, though I could be wrong on that.
 

Oh, c'mon now, that's speculation, brothah. We're ready for it, the whole enchilada!

For exaltation?  no way!  For more revelation about Mother?  Of course- I am praying for it.

I can't even count the number of times I've heard in Gospel Doctrine classes that we don't talk much about Heavenly Mother to investigators because 'they wouldn't understand' or it's a 'milk before meat' kind of thing, but that's really looking at it backwards - we should see it as an opportunity. As a convert to the Church, I can say that Heavenly Mother is not something to hide under a bushel, She is (or at least should be) a major feature of the Restoration. We know extremely little about God the Father, a few verses at most, but that paucity of information doesn't stop us.

 Now we are on the same wavelength.  Separate roles but "equal" partners is what it is all about.  Yin balances yang- BALANCE is the key.
 

To tie this back to the topic of this thread (yes, this is all related!), if God is an exalted man who was once like us, and Christ teaches us that loving God and our neighbors are the two great commandments, and if Joseph Smith restores the idea that we can all be exalted, then the inescapable conclusion is that there are Goddesses alongside Gods, and we should just acknowledge it plainly. Conservative Evangelicals will go apoplectic over this, of course, and call us names like 'pagan', but what's that to us? Early Mormons were not afraid to talk about these ideas explicitly, but in our attempts to mainstreamize ourselves, we've become reticent about acknowledging feminine divinity proudly. We should be trying to look more like Wicca, not Protestants - heck, we already have a Great Rite of Hieros Gamos in our Temples.

Well I completely agree in principle although the word "Wicca" is horribly misunderstood.  But certainly they don't think that male and female forces are the same.  To have a unity of opposites.  ONE MUST HAVE OPPOSITES.

 

But again, you are missing the atonement entirely and the reason for it.  You are missing the importance of the front and the back of the veil, and the MAJOR difference between the initiatory rite differences between men and women.

 

Honestly, you have to look into that and explain to me why mens blessings are no where close to those given to women.  As I have said, I would trade the priesthood for those blessings tomorrow.

 

But that is not going to happen.  I have the wrong gender, so I must take the "inferior and unequal" position.

Edited July 6, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Storm Rider]

We have no doctrine that addresses this; rather we have statements that may lead to this conclusion.  As I have addressed this topic in the past, accepting that did only promotes confusion and causes additional questions thus providing little to edify the saints.  If god progressed from mortal to godhead, then who or what is the First Cause?  We have nothing that addresses this proposition.  

It is easier for me to believe that God has always been God just as Jesus has always been Jesus.  There is something that is quantifiably different from them and us.  This also adds to the awesome blessing that God offers us to make us like him through Christ's atonement.  This is a gulf that we could not traverse without their direct aid and guidance.  

[DJBrown]

Did Heavenly Father go through his own life, making mistakes, dealing with challenges, repenting, doing temple ordinances during his life, etc to become God? Through exaltation we can live as God lives, but did God live as we live?

 

The most definitive statements on this come from Joseph Smith in the King Follett discourse.  In that talk, Joseph made three statements that I believe rule out the possibility that God was ever a sinner like us.  

 

1.  God lived on an earth, "just like Jesus Christ."

2.  God had the power within Himself to lay down His life and take it up again.

3.  Jesus Christ worked out His kingdom the same way God had worked out His kingdom.

 

Also, if you consider the enormously symbolic story of Abraham and Isaac, the possibility that God the Father was a Savior becomes even more real.  What may be the most impressive element of faith within the story of Abraham being willing to offer his own son, Isaac, as a sacrifice after waiting for so long for this son is the fact that Abraham, himself, had been placed on an alter by his own father as a sacrifice.  

[Stone holm]

Bruce R. McConkie agrees with you on the last point- HF will always be infinitely above us, even though he does not grow in "knowledge" because once you are omniscient and omnipotent there is no where more to "grow"- except his kingdom grows as our kingdoms grow.

 

He will always be our Father and therefore far far far "above" us.

Not sure I can agree with this, eternal progression, means more than just adding spiritual generations below us. It has been suggested by various Mormons that Heavenly Father must have been the Christ of His spiritual generation. Personally, while that is possible, it seems like a statistical improbability.

[mfbukowski]

Not sure I can agree with this, eternal progression, means more than just adding spiritual generations below us. It has been suggested by various Mormons that Heavenly Father must have been the Christ of His spiritual generation. Personally, while that is possible, it seems like a statistical improbability.

Laughable.

God obeys man's statistics.

[Alan]

Did Heavenly Father go through his own life, making mistakes, dealing with challenges, repenting, doing temple ordinances during his life, etc to become God? Through exaltation we can live as God lives, but did God live as we live?

 

In my view, no he did not.

[JLHPROF]

Bruce R. McConkie agrees with you on the last point- HF will always be infinitely above us, even though he does not grow in "knowledge" because once you are omniscient and omnipotent there is no where more to "grow"- except his kingdom grows as our kingdoms grow.

 

He will always be our Father and therefore far far far "above" us.

 

Not sure I can agree with this, eternal progression, means more than just adding spiritual generations below us. It has been suggested by various Mormons that Heavenly Father must have been the Christ of His spiritual generation. Personally, while that is possible, it seems like a statistical improbability.

 

Opposing viewpoints - I personally believe that BRM is 100% wrong concerning God's ability to grow in knowledge and that Stoneholm is correct that eternal progression means more than just increasing at a stagnant level.  I do believe BRM is correct that God will always preside over us.

 

The rest is pure speculation.

Edited July 6, 2014 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

In my view, no he did not.

 

What makes you believe that God was never as we were on an earth?

Edited July 6, 2014 by JLHPROF

[blooit]

CFR - what makes you believe that God was never as we were on an earth?

 

Not sure you should really CFR a personal view.

[JLHPROF]

Not sure you should really CFR a personal view.

 

Ok, I withdraw the "CFR".  I still would like to know how he came to his personal view in light of scripture and prophetic teaching.

Edited July 6, 2014 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

Opposing viewpoints - I personally believe that BRM is 100% wrong concerning God's ability to grow in knowledge and that Stoneholm is correct that eternal progression means more than just increasing at a stagnant level.  I do believe BRM is correct that God will always preside over us.

 

The rest is pure speculation.

Logic and speculation is in the eye of the interpreter.  One man's speculation is another's absolute certainty.  Make up your story and the logic will justify it.

[ERayR]

 it seems like a statistical improbability.

 

Statistics don't lie, but liars sometime use statistics.