Alan Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Agreed. However it gets a little complicated when the Scriptures also tell us we are also Gods. They don't....... not really.But even where they say something along those lines they use a lower case "g", not a capital "G" like you did in your comment. I personally think this is very significant.
Alan Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 The question was if God (our Father) ever lived as we are now living, with a spirit like ours clothed with a mortal body, and I was saying yes to that question while also saying he either sinned or did not sin while he lived in his then mortal body.Nothing you're saying contradicts what I said and we do not disagree with each other. I think we probably do disagree with each other on this.I do not believe the person we worship as God the Father ever lived as a mortal man.
mfbukowski Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Um, God *is* the Trinity, not one person in the Trinity.Uh oh. So then it's not "We are"? Here we go counting again. How are three persons "Self" existent?
Alan Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 The Book of Mormon states that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one Eternal God.That's straightforward trinitarian doctrine, and is much clearer than any biblical statement on the subject. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Uh oh. So then it's not "We are"? Here we go counting again. How are three persons "Self" existent?Selves existent? (Sorry; couldn't resist! ) 1
danielwoods Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Just goes to show that symbols can represent whatever we want. The biblical quotes this link gives specifically say A&O means the beginning and the end, yet somehow this site reads that to mean without beginning or end, before the beginning and after the end, basically everything except what they say... Symbols represent what the original sender of the message intended them to mean. In the case of the symbols you are reading now, they mean what I'm intending them to mean. In the case of the Alpha and Omega, they are used of God and Jesus interchangeably, and indicate all or infinite. The context that the symbols are contained in is key to understanding what they mean. I am not sure this is a real conflict. I tend to agree with Daniel's interpretation; it is hyperbole rather than a literal statement that you are making it. Jesus has always been a member of the Godhead and always will be. I am not a literalist when it comes to scripture; sometimes it is literal and sometimes its analogy and sometimes it is hyperbole. The challenge that most of Christianity has is Jesus' comment that he does nothing except what he saw the Father do (John 5:19). If Jesus only does that which he saw the Father do, when was that time and where was the Father when he was doing it? Some LDS who believe that God progressed to be God, I am not one of them, have a problem in that all it does is beg the question of who was the First Cause? What is evident is that there are areas of the gospel where questions remain and God has not answered them. I didn't know that not all LDS were believers in a progressive God?
Calm Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) I didn't know that not all LDS were believers in a progressive God?do you not believe that God's creations grow in number and in ability to glorify Him? If so, then God progresses in glory at the very least. Edited July 10, 2014 by calmoriah
Ahab Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 I think we probably do disagree with each other on this.I do not believe the person we worship as God the Father ever lived as a mortal man.The idea that he did doesn't contradict the other things that you said about him, though, so if you did believe he once lived as a mortal man you could still continue to believe what you said about him.Just as the fact that Jesus once lived as a mortal man doesn't detract from how great a being he is. 2
thesometimesaint Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 They don't....... not really.But even where they say something along those lines they use a lower case "g", not a capital "G" like you did in your comment. I personally think this is very significant. To me whether you call him William, Bill, or Billy Clinton we're still talking about the same former president of the US. Our god the father name is El. Capitalization of names is fine with me. Titles just depends.
Alan Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 To me whether you call him William, Bill, or Billy Clinton we're still talking about the same former president of the US. Our god the father name is El. Capitalization of names is fine with me. Titles just depends. "God" isn't a name and neither is "god". They're titles, but one is so much more than the other.
thesometimesaint Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 "God" isn't a name and neither is "god". They're titles, but one is so much more than the other. Even our Sacrament Prayers to god as a person.
JLHPROF Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Because he is God and always has been in my view.I do not subscribe to the couplet stating that "as man is God once was and as God is man may become" when "God" refers to the being we address as Father.However where Jesus (Jehovah) is concerned, the couplet above is true. He once was a man, and we can become like him. I've been thinking about this post again.Does this mean you don't believe that Jesus can become equal/the same as the Father? If you don't believe the couplet, that is of course your business. But you do believe we can become like Christ. Do you not believe even Christ can become as the Father then?
Ahab Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 "God" isn't a name and neither is "god". They're titles, but one is so much more than the other.When you say God and are referring to our Father in heaven, or to any other person who is the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, then you are using the word God as a name and not just a title. You could probably get away with calling it a nick name, but it is still a name when used in that way, even if you don't agree or don't realize it.
blooit Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 I've been thinking about this post again.Does this mean you don't believe that Jesus can become equal/the same as the Father? If you don't believe the couplet, that is of course your business. But you do believe we can become like Christ. Do you not believe even Christ can become as the Father then? This sent me down a whole new line of thought. Thanks for rocking the boat JLH! 1
mfbukowski Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 The Book of Mormon states that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one Eternal God.That's straightforward trinitarian doctrine, and is much clearer than any biblical statement on the subject. They ARE on eternal God, as a community of three persons united in purpose.
Ahab Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 They ARE on eternal God, as a community of three persons united in purpose.They are eternal and have always been eternally God because they have always existed and will always exist as the kind of being they are, and we refer to their kind of being as God.
name Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) Hi JLH Ironically, the symbolism of the Alpha and the Omega is the beginning and the end...not the eternal. The letters "Alpha" and "Omega" - when together in the Bible - form a monogram for one of the names of Jesus Christ. Meaning: "The Beginning and The End" In Revelation 1:8 - "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (says the Lord God) "Who is, and who was, and who is to come, The Almighty" In Revelation 21:6 - "It is done, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, to him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life" In Revelation 22:13 - "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End" These statements by Jesus clearly indicate that he existed before creation and will continue to exist for all eternity. He was with God before anything was created, thus took part in creation. Jesus, like God, was not created. He is eternal. "Alpha and Omega" (A name for Jesus Christ used as a Christian symbol) signifies the eternal nature of Jesus Christ and God. This post is just another reason I am so glad to have a testimony of the truths of Mormonism. I am honored that my post gave you "another reason to be so glad to have a testimony of the truths of Mormonism" Edited July 10, 2014 by name
JLHPROF Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Meaning: "The Beginning and The End"In Revelation 1:8 - "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (says the Lord God) "Who is, and who was, and who is to come, The Almighty"Is - exists at the time of the revelation, Was - existed before the revelation, Is to come - will return to us. Yep.In Revelation 21:6 - "It is done, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, to him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life"In Revelation 22:13 - "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End" So in all of these uses of A&O Christ is absolutely referred to as the Beginning and the End. Got it. The beginning and the end of what? These statements by Jesus clearly indicate that he existed before creation and will continue to exist for all eternity. He was with God before anything was created, thus took part in creation. Huh?? Which of these scriptures refers to before the beginning (creation) or after the end (the resurrection). One of them says Christ will return, but that's not referring to the eternities either. A&O definitely refers to Christ being at the origin of this earth (the beginning, John 1:1-3).A&O definitely refers to Christ being here at the conclusion of this earth (the end, Revelation 21 esp vs 6 where he says "It is done"). But in no usage does A&O refer to eternities outside of this period. A&O is never used to refer to the eternities outside of this creation/earth life. It merely establishes that he started it and he will end it. So while Christ is A&O to this earthly creation of God, and while he will certainly be with us into the eternities, this A&O designation in no way shows that he had no time before he existed. 2
danielwoods Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 do you not believe that God's creations grow in number and in ability to glorify Him? If so, then God progresses in glory at the very least. The question is can an infinite being progress? To me the answer has to be no, other wise he's not infinite. As to your point, does God progress in glory at least since we are growing in number? It would seem that he does, however that presupposes that his glory isn't already infinite. I think my answer would be that before he decided to create us, he knew in that moment, everything that would happen, down to every minute detail (sub-atomic and every nano-second). So, then he already has the glory from us that did and would come from us (past/present/future) as a result of his decision to share life with us.
Calm Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) What is infinity plus one?So the moment before he decided to create us he had less infinite glory than the moment after he decided to create us? Edited July 11, 2014 by calmoriah 1
Stone holm Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 So in all of these uses of A&O Christ is absolutely referred to as the Beginning and the End. Got it. The beginning and the end of what? Huh?? Which of these scriptures refers to before the beginning (creation) or after the end (the resurrection). One of them says Christ will return, but that's not referring to the eternities either. A&O definitely refers to Christ being at the origin of this earth (the beginning, John 1:1-3).A&O definitely refers to Christ being here at the conclusion of this earth (the end, Revelation 21 esp vs 6 where he says "It is done"). But in no usage does A&O refer to eternities outside of this period. A&O is never used to refer to the eternities outside of this creation/earth life. It merely establishes that he started it and he will end it. So while Christ is A&O to this earthly creation of God, and while he will certainly be with us into the eternities, this A&O designation in no way shows that he had no time before he existed.I agree with this, but am a little unsure what was implied with " he had no time before he existed" . As I see it we all started out as intelligences, then we were born as spirit children, then some of us were born into mortality,..... So when do we say Christ existed as such?
Stone holm Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 The question is can an infinite being progress? To me the answer has to be no, other wise he's not infinite. As to your point, does God progress in glory at least since we are growing in number? It would seem that he does, however that presupposes that his glory isn't already infinite. I think my answer would be that before he decided to create us, he knew in that moment, everything that would happen, down to every minute detail (sub-atomic and every nano-second). So, then he already has the glory from us that did and would come from us (past/present/future) as a result of his decision to share life with us.I think the issue is what exactly do we mean by infinite, it seems to me that in Mormon theology when this is applied to God it is done as a form of hyperbole intended to denote awe or praise rather than actuality, but we carry enough Protestant and Catholic baggage with us that such usages become a stumbling block to consistency, so we go through mental contortions to hold onto the baggage which it would be better to just discard.
Alan Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 I've been thinking about this post again.Does this mean you don't believe that Jesus can become equal/the same as the Father? If you don't believe the couplet, that is of course your business. But you do believe we can become like Christ. Do you not believe even Christ can become as the Father then? I do believe we can become like Christ through his atonement, but not on our own merits. The scriptures call it "being perfected in Christ".I don't believe the "couplet" as it is commonly interpreted because it appears to refer to the being we address as Father. There is not one shread of scriptural evidence that this being was ever a mortal man. However, the scriptures do state that this being created mortal men.As I said before, Jesus is God, and lived as a mortal man. We can become like Christ; so therefore the couplet works if referring to Jesus. As LDS we also believe in subordination. That is, that Christ is subordinate to the Father. He is equal only because the Father allows him to be. He is equal with permission. The fact that he needs permission demonstrates that he is subordinate. So they are equal, but one is more equal than the other. I believe that any equality we may have with Christ will be with his permission. Therefore, he will always be more than us and that's just fine with me.
JLHPROF Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 I do believe we can become like Christ through his atonement, but not on our own merits. The scriptures call it "being perfected in Christ".I don't believe the "couplet" as it is commonly interpreted because it appears to refer to the being we address as Father. There is not one shread of scriptural evidence that this being was ever a mortal man. However, the scriptures do state that this being created mortal men.As I said before, Jesus is God, and lived as a mortal man. We can become like Christ; so therefore the couplet works if referring to Jesus. As LDS we also believe in subordination. That is, that Christ is subordinate to the Father. He is equal only because the Father allows him to be. He is equal with permission. The fact that he needs permission demonstrates that he is subordinate. So they are equal, but one is more equal than the other. I believe that any equality we may have with Christ will be with his permission. Therefore, he will always be more than us and that's just fine with me. Thank you for clarifying your position. I do appreciate it.As for myself, I will stick to the position taught by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Lorenzo Snow and pretty much all the prophets of our dispensation.
danielwoods Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 What is infinity plus one?So the moment before he decided to create us he had less infinite glory than the moment after he decided to create us? There is no such thing as infinity plus one. And the answer is no. The moment before he decided to create us and share life with us, he shared life within the trinity.
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