Did Heavenly Father Live As We Currently Live?

[VideoGameJunkie]

I concur with Storm Rider that the adversary is real and knows us very well and knows our weaknesses.

[teddyaware]

The idea of having itching ears is one that we all need to be cognizant daily.  Too often we want a God that fits our image rather than one that demands that we listen and obey.  This is the part of our being that is set in pride and we use it to reinforce our pride.  God must be a certain way or he is not God.  God must accommodate our desires, wants, and passions.  Surely a god who loves us would give us what we want without any personal sacrifice!?!  

 

We each do this because we are all proud.  It stuns me often that many Christians do not see that the evil one is real; that he lies in wait to deceive and motivates us to run after shadows of truth wrapped in a nice box of meeting our own passions.  He is so good at this that we will call evil good and good evil.  The path without sacrifice is one that is fraught with sorrow and pain because God is not found on that path and never will be.  

 

He demands of the humble, broken heart that is willing to say, "Not my will, but thine be done".  As much as we know these things we still are incredibly gullible to the temptations and guidance of the evil one.

I very much appreciate your sobering post.

[theplains]

... the evil one is real; that he lies in wait to deceive and motivates us to run after shadows of truth wrapped in a nice box of meeting our own passions.  

 

This has lead some to believe that we should honor Adam and Eve for their actions in the

Garden of Eden.

 

Regards,

Jim

[JLHPROF]

This has lead some to believe that we should honor Adam and Eve for their actions in the

Garden of Eden.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

Um, I honor Adam and Eve for their actions because their actions were both necessary and part of the plan and involved a huge sacrifice on their part.  This has nothing to do with "the evil one".

[mfbukowski]

Are things true or false? No. propositions and sentences are.  And those are made of words.

 

I have enough power in my legs to ride a bike.  Does that power belong to God?  Don't I get any for myself?  Do I pay my power bill to God?

 

How does one "know" a "thing"? 

 

Hello lamppost what you knowing?
I've come to watch your flowers growing
Ain't you got no rhymes for me?
Doot-in' do-do feelin' groovy

 

 Simon And Garfunkel - The 59th Street Bridge Song (feelin' Groovy) Lyrics | MetroLyrics

 

Its WORDS, guys WORDS.

 

Yes God can do whatever he wants, but don't let the words get in the way.  And around and around it goes, where it stops, no one knows.

 

Oh- other than God that is.  But he ain't telling.

[Stone holm]

This has lead some to believe that we should honor Adam and Eve for their actions in the

Garden of Eden.

 

Regards,

Jim

We , Mormons, do honor Father Adam and Mother Eve for their actions, had they not taken those actions we would not exist. At Adam Ondi Ahman, each holder of the keys of a dispensation will deliver their keys up to Adam who will then deliver them up to Christ. This is what comes of not teaching meat and pretending we believe in a God that resembles the one the Protestants and Catholics worship.

[djones]

Does God know what the biggest number is?

 

Does God know who the first God was?

 

Has God seen all the creations he'll ever make in the future?

 

 

....perhaps God doesn't actually know "everything" but has access to everything. Like a heavenly Google. He can go as far forward or backward in time as he wishes and anything he wants to know he'll have the instant answer and all wisdom to go along with it. But I fall into the Brigham Young camp and believe that he can still progress in knowledge. None of it will be anything life shattering but lets just say it will be exciting to him. Kind of like meeting someone new. Something to look forward to if you will.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well if we have the opportunity at eternal increase, I'm positive Heavenly Father can progress as much as He wants. It makes me happy that such wonderful things happen for our Heavenly Father.

[teddyaware]

Does God know what the biggest number is?

 

Does God know who the first God was?

 

Has God seen all the creations he'll ever make in the future?

 

 

....perhaps God doesn't actually know "everything" but has access to everything. Like a heavenly Google. He can go as far forward or backward in time as he wishes and anything he wants to know he'll have the instant answer and all wisdom to go along with it. But I fall into the Brigham Young camp and believe that he can still progress in knowledge. None of it will be anything life shattering but lets just say it will be exciting to him. Kind of like meeting someone new. Something to look forward to if you will.

Heck, I'm just a mere fallen mortal and I can answer these three questions:

1) There is no such thing as a "biggest number" because the upward progression of numbers is infinite and has no end, just as God's creations are infinite and will never have an end.

"38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. (Moses 1)"

2) According to the Book of Mormon there was no so-called "first God. The Prophet Lehi testifies that God has always existed, and that which operates in eternal opposition to God has always existed as well (both good and bad are coeval), otherwise nothing could exist. If divine intelligence and divine awareness of reality are not self-existent, there could have been no creation of worlds and things because nonexistence cannot create anything.

"11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been nopurpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Nephi 2)"

3) Because the infinite and eternal mind of God fully grasps the whole of reality, God is fully aware of every thought, action, and occurrence that could ever possibly take place within reality. Therefore, because the infinite mind of God is fully aware of any possible future eventuality nothing will ever surprise Him.

"7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will. (Words of Mormon 1)"

 

Sticking to the Standard Works makes things a lot easier.

 

But here's how some harmony may prevail between the two seemingly disparate camps: There is a difference between having  a theoretical knowledge of factual information and gaining empirical knowledge through actual experience -- these are two different things. Prior to His earthly sojourn, the great Jehovah -- who was known on earth as Jesus of Nazareth -- knew all things, yet starting out as a newborn baby He had to learn everything all over again, just as if He had never existed as the eternal God. The spirit that animated the Lord's human body knew all things, yet he needed to live a life of righteousness by the power of the Spirit before the infinite and eternal knowledge He possessed was allowed to permeate His tabernacle of flesh. And so we read:

12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. (Alma 7)

 

The Lord's earthly experience may be a key to understanding how God can know all things and yet simultaneously grow in grace and knowledge.

Edited July 23, 2014 by teddyaware

[VideoGameJunkie]

Our minds cannot fully grasp the concept of eternity yet, I think that has to do with the veil. I can't wait until the veil is lifted.

[JLHPROF]

I disagree, and time suggests wisdom in not do so. It is too far reaching with so little scriptural support. There is a process that this "sermon" does not meet the condition to become canon.

 

We have a well established method of determining what we as a Church believe, and the KFD, no matter how correct it is, doesn't meet that method.

 

I've been thinking about this supposed standard that keeps the KFD from being canonized.  This requirement of presenting the revelation for approval and having full scriptural support.

The thought that occurs to me is "we would have to take a LOT of things out of canon based on their origins" if we truly believe this standard.

 

Items restored by Joseph Smith WITHOUT a canonized revelation on the subject or an approving vote PRIOR to adoption:

1. The entire Nauvoo temple endowment. (I have never seen many elements in revelation although some pieces are.)

2. The garment. (Depends which version of its restoration you believe.)

3. Eternal marriage/families (first eternal marriage 1841, first canonized revelation mentioning eternal marriage 1843.)

4. The Book of Mormon (transl., publ., and believed in a month before there was a church to officially accept it's truth.)

and many more

 

And there were many others that were hinted at in the Bible, but Joseph still technically restored the teachings without any approved revelation on the subject, premortality for instance is alluded to in the Bible but it is taught as doctrine in Mormonism because Joseph said so, not because a revelation taught it.

 

Why do we accept so many doctrines today that didn't pass the test or were never tested but we continue to deny the King Follet Discourse or the Lectures on Faith being scripture?

 

All of these things were established in the Church as canonical doctrines with NO vote and NO adopted written revelation at the time of adoption.  Sometimes the revelation was given after (like D&C 130&132 on eternal marriage) but the doctrines were first established purely on the say so of Joseph Smith.

[djones]

2) According to the Book of Mormon there was no so-called "first God. The Prophet Lehi testifies that God has always existed, and that which operates in eternal opposition to God has always existed as well (both good and bad are coeval), otherwise nothing could exist. If divine intelligence and divine awareness of reality are not self-existent, there could have been no creation of worlds and things because nonexistence cannot create anything.

 

 

I agree that there isn't a first God. But if God the Father lived on an earth at some point in time (and wasn't God back then) and His God had a God back to infinity, then how can we possibly say that God knows all things? It's impossible to know an infinite number of people/places, etc. The B of M and the KFD really do contradict each other. I believe God knows "all things" as far as we're concerned or will ever need to know. But how can he know ALL ALL things of an infinite future and past? We know from scripture that we cannot number all of his creations but they are numbered unto him. The bigger question is can He number all of his future creations?

[teddyaware]

I agree that there isn't a first God. But if God the Father lived on an earth at some point in time (and wasn't God back then) and His God had a God back to infinity, then how can we possibly say that God knows all things? It's impossible to know an infinite number of people/places, etc. The B of M and the KFD really do contradict each other. I believe God knows "all things" as far as we're concerned or will ever need to know. But how can he know ALL ALL things of an infinite future and past? We know from scripture that we cannot number all of his creations but they are numbered unto him. The bigger question is can He number all of his future creations?

One way to get around the seeming contradiction is to think of God as a Council of Divine Beings wherein all the theoretical and empirical knowledge of each personage in the Council is freely and openly shared with the other members of the Council. Think of the oneness of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost as a Smaller Model of this Grand Heavenly Council, then add to the Smaller Model a Spirit of oneness with all other Gods past and future and one can begin to get the picture.

20 Neither pray I for these alone (the Apostles), but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17)

 

The above verses give us a view of how the Grand Heavenly Council may work by first enabling us to catch a glimpse of the concept from a more limited earthly perspective; a perspective wherein the earthly sons of God are brought into a most intimate communion of shared divine knowledge and power with the Father and the Son. Now add to this perspective the idea that the Father is also fully one with His Father (and so on, and so on) and the concept of a Grand Heavenly Council of shared knowledge begins to make more sense.

Edited July 28, 2014 by teddyaware