Vigils For Sister Kelly Tonight.

[Bsix]

From what I can tell, the Ordain Women/Kate Kelly story is a big yawner within the Church. It appears to me that the Salt Lake Tribune and exMormon community are the ones up in arms.

 

Hence, it is the Salt Lake Tribune reports world wide vigils to be held to support Sister Kelly tonight as a disciplinary council determines her church status.

 

While Mormon disciplinary council meets, Ordain Women will be in vigil

 

This story goes to the heart of why I find the Ordain Women movement so antithical to orthodox Mormonism:

1. On what spiritual basis does Sister Kelly claim the right for she and women in general have the priesthood? If she does not claim to be guided by inspiration she is being heterdoxical. Why? Because such a significant change to Church doctrine would come via inspiration from God. If she claims to be inspired by God to demand this change, she is being heterodoxial. Why? Because Church doctrine specifically excludes such revelation outside of those holding the authority and keys to receive this sort of revelation.
    
2. Presumably, Sister Kelly and Ordain Women want the priesthood so they can administer and minister at all levels of the priesthood...and to hold offices within the priesthood. Yet, how could we trust such priesthood leaders who violated core Church doctrines to install themselves in positions of ecclesiastical authority? Would I be able to trust that their motives are pure? Can I trust that they will adhere to the doctrines and policies of the Gospel?
    
3. How could members of the Church respect, trust, and follow female leaders who allied with secularists, outside media, and Critics of the Church to gain their priesthood positions?
    
4. If the Ordain Women have already demonstrated their willingness to go rogue to get what they want...how do we trust them not to go rogue in the future when they disagree with the decision made by a higher priesthood authority? (Reference Sister Kelly's complaints about the process and jurisdiction of her current disciplinary council.)

In short, how can members of Ordain Women be trusted with the priesthood and associated ecclesiastical authority when they have so abused LDS authority, process, theology, and leadership in their campaign of dissent?

 

Regards,

 

Six

Edited June 22, 2014 by Bsix

[CA Steve]

 

In short, how can members of Ordain Women be trusted with the priesthood and associated ecclesiastical authority when they have so abused LDS authority, process, theology, and leadership in their campaign of dissent?

Okay so give the priesthood to those women who have not acted in this manner.

 

Problem solved.

[Bsix]

Okay so give the priesthood to those women who have not acted in this manner.

 

Problem solved.

 

No problem. Women who wanted no part of Ordain Women would not want or accept priesthood ordination. It is only a relatively small number of female dissidents seeking the priesthood. You might say that 'real' Mormon women are not seeking to steady the ark.

[JAHS]

Okay so give the priesthood to those women who have not acted in this manner.

 

Problem solved.

I don't know why but A scene from the movie Gladiator comes to mind

 

MAXIMUS: What will you have me do Caesar? 

MARCUS: I want you to become the protector of Rome after I die. I will empower you, to one end alone, to give power back to the people of Rome and end the corruption that has crippled it. Will you accept this great honour that I have offered? 

MAXIMUS: With all my heart, no. 

MARCUS:  Maximus, that is why it must be you. 

MAXIMUS: But surely a prefect, a senator, somebody who knows the city, who understands her politics.... 

MARCUS: But you have not been corrupted by her politics. 

MAXIMUS: And Commodus? 

MARCUS: Commodus is not a moral man, you have known that since you were young. Commodus cannot rule. He must not rule. 

[CA Steve]

No problem. Women who wanted no part of Ordain Women would not want or accept priesthood ordination. It is only a relatively small number of female dissidents seeking the priesthood. You might say that 'real' Mormon women are not seeking to steady the ark.

I might phrase it:

 

"No true Mormon woman wants the priesthood."

 

I also might be sleeping on the couch tonight.

Edited June 22, 2014 by CA Steve

[Bsix]

I might phrase it:

 

"No true Mormon woman wants the priesthood."

 

I also might be sleeping on the couch tonight.

 

Your first statement may not be too far off the mark. The Pew Research Center reports that 95% of Mormon women with a "high" degree of religious committment disagree with female priesthood ordination.

 

As for you sleeping on the couch...that is between you, your wife, and the couch.

 

Clever exchanges aside. The fact remains that Sister Kelly and her fellow dissidents of the Ordain Women movement are acting in ways that are heterodoxical to force a change they want. For them to hold the priesthood is inconsistent with LDS theology...even if they somehow got their wish.

 

Regards,

 

Six

Edited June 22, 2014 by Bsix

[carbon dioxide]

It would be nice if the people of Ordain Women would read Alma 29:1-3 and liken it to themselves

 

 O that I were an angel, and could have the wish of mine heart, that I might go forth and speak with the trump of God, with a voice to shake the earth, and cry repentance unto every people! Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth. But behold, I am a man, and do sin in my wish; for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me.

 

They could say something to the effect.

 

"Oh that I had the priesthood, can could have the wish of my heart, that I might feel equal to the men and baptize and do other things that the men do.  But I am just a woman, and do sin in my wish, for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me."

 

Being humble, being greatful,  and accepting the things God has given us will lead us to be like Alma and gain the fate of Alma got which is eternal life.  Complaining, being arrogant, and basic pride gets one traveling in the opposite direction. 

[Kenngo1969]

I've said this before, but if the Lord wills that my sisters be ordained, I'm all for it.  But I don't know of any change in the Church of Jesus Christ (see what I did there? ) that has come about as a result of public clamor for it.

 

P.S.: Vigils?  Did Sister Kelly (or somebody else) die (or is she/are they dying?)  

Edited June 22, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[AndyDnom]

she doesnt claim the right to have it. shes asking the leaders if they will ask god if they can have the right.

[juliann]

No problem. Women who wanted no part of Ordain Women would not want or accept priesthood ordination. It is only a relatively small number of female dissidents seeking the priesthood. You might say that 'real' Mormon women are not seeking to steady the ark.

 

Great, a woman bashing thread!  Just what we need today. This attitude illustrates why so many women who aren't OW are fed up with how they are dismissed, demeaned, and generally ignored by far too many men who think the priesthood gives them that right.

[juliann]

 

 

Being humble, being greatful,  and accepting the things God has given us will lead us to be like Alma and gain the fate of Alma got which is eternal life.  Complaining, being arrogant, and basic pride gets one traveling in the opposite direction. 

 

Exactly.  So stop it.

[The Nehor]

Great, a woman bashing thread!  Just what we need today. This attitude illustrates why so many women who aren't OW are fed up with how they are dismissed, demeaned, and generally ignored by far too many men who think the priesthood gives them that right.

Not fair, I bash both genders equally.

[CA Steve]

Your first statement may not be too far off the mark. The Pew Research Center reports that 95% of Mormon women with a "high" degree of religious committment disagree with female priesthood ordination.

 

As for you sleeping on the couch...that is between you, your wife, and the couch.

 

Clever exchanges aside. The fact remains that Sister Kelly and her fellow dissidents of the Ordain Women movement are acting in ways that are heterodoxical to force a change they want. For them to hold the priesthood is inconsistent with LDS theology...even if they somehow got their wish.

 

Regards,

 

Six

Is it your position that wanting the priesthood automatically disqualifies anyone from being eligible for the priesthood or does that standard only apply to women?

 

Say there was this rare worthy LDS woman who actually desired to be able to bless her own infant, or give a priesthood health blessing, or even stand in the circle with others when her infant was blessed, how would such a women express such a desire? Or would even voicing such a desire automatically make her an apostate?

 

Sometime I think those men who argue that women don't need the priesthood because of how superior (or what ever condescending term comes to mind) women are, are the best examples of their own foolish views.

[Rain]

No problem. Women who wanted no part of Ordain Women would not want or accept priesthood ordination. It is only a relatively small number of female dissidents seeking the priesthood. You might say that 'real' Mormon women are not seeking to steady the ark.

I wanted no part in Ordain Women, I don't seek for it and I feel male and female roles work together as one perfectly, but if the Lord wanted me to be ordained I would accept and welcome it. I think an awful lot of good mormon women would accept that call from the Lord even without any desire for it now.

[smac97]

No problem. Women who wanted no part of Ordain Women would not want or accept priesthood ordination. It is only a relatively small number of female dissidents seeking the priesthood. You might say that 'real' Mormon women are not seeking to steady the ark.

 

With all due respect (I say that sincerely), I cannot agree to the statement that "women who wanted no part of Ordain Women would not want or accept priesthood ordination." There are devout and faithful LDS women who sincerely believe that female ordination is within the realm of possibility, and who even yearn for it, but who reject the OW group and their tactics. It is Kate Kelly's tactics and rhetoric that has landed her in front of a disciplinary council, not her desire to hold the priesthood per se.

I agree that that the number of women in the Church who are seeking the priesthood is "relatively small," but I reject the suggestion that they are all "female dissidents." Again, there are devout and faithful LDS women who want the priesthood but are not resorting to OW-like tactics and rhetoric in pursuit of it.

I also cannot agree with the statement that "'real' Mormon women are not seeking to steady the ark," as this statement is apparently drawing a 1:1 correlation between wanting the priesthood and ark-steadying. There are devout and faithful LDS women who want the priesthood but are not resorting to OW-like tactics and rhetoric in pursuit of it, who are not "steadying the ark."

I am open to the possibility of female ordination, but only if we are given revelation about it. Beyond that, I'm fairly ambivalent about the subject (that is, I do not agitate for it or argue against it). I think there are women in the Church who share my position, but then take it a bit further in that they are not only open to the possibility, they hope for it and talk about it prospectively. I do not think that is a problematic position, except to the extent its adherents run the risk of taking it a few steps further into public advocacy, then agitation and protests, etc. (a la Kate Kelly).

I admire the women in the Church who self-identify as "feminists," who seek to reconcile some form of that ideology with faithful observance of the LDS faith, and who are attempting such reconciliation but refuse to do so by compromising the doctrines of the Church or rising up in rebellion against it, and instead proceed with faith, humility, and continued devotion to the Church. While I do not share their devotion to this particular topic, such women can certainly be counted as "real" Latter-day Saints.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 22, 2014 by smac97

[Calm]

Well stated, Smac.

I for one would gratefully accept ordination if offered, though I believe that there is something else in women's destiny and that is what I hope and pray for, but if the Lord decides that Priesthood is an option for women, then I will shout for joy and set up an appt. for my ordination as soon as possible.

I do not approve of the methods of OW just in case someone hasn't noticed yet.

Edited June 22, 2014 by calmoriah

[jwhitlock]

In their non-negotiable demands to have the priesthood, I don't think that those making those demands have really thought through what having the priesthood means and what changes it would entail.

 

The priesthood is structured in a very specific way, with quorums based on priesthood office. Priesthood holders in the church are organized solely according to the order of the priesthood. They are expected to be ordained to the priesthood starting at age 12 and to accept the responsibilities and the structure of the priesthood as specified in the scriptures.  There are no other organizational structures outside of the priesthood and priesthood responsibility that are defined in the church for priesthood holders.

 

So let's assume that women were given the priesthood. They would be required, then, to function organizationally in the church within the priesthood structure as revealed. This would include:

 

- All girls would be expected to be ordained to the priesthood at age 12, just as boys are. There is no contingency for optional participation within the structure of the church. Men are not considered fully active members of the church if they do not hold the priesthood.

- Girls would be expected to assume all of the responsibilities and requirements of the priesthood, including the responsibility of going on missions. It would no longer be optional for them.

- All women would be members of priesthood quorums, just like the men. Since priesthood quorums are only organized by priesthood office - no other definition of quorums is revealed - those quorums would consist of men and women.

- Since women would now be organized in the church under the revealed priesthood structures, no women-specific organizations would be needed or acceptable. Relief Society would be abolished since it would be redundant. Young Women would be folded into the Young Men priesthood structure, which would probably be renamed. There would be no separate men / women meetings or activities, because priesthood quorums are the defining, unified organization for all who hold the priesthood. Period.

- Visiting teaching would be eliminated. Priesthood outreach in the church is not limited by gender under the revelations, and so there would only be home teaching, and both men and women would be expected to home teach men and women.

- Any women-specific meetings or activities or programs would need to be eliminated since all member activity would fall under the structure of priesthood organization, since by revelation, the exercise of priesthood  cannot be limited in such a manner.

 

In short, if women were to be given the priesthood, it could not be provided as an optional ordination for women, different than the way it is offered for men. Both men and women in the priesthood would be required to be organized and responsible in exactly the same way, with no exceptions. Doing otherwise undermines the scriptural requirement for unity within the priesthood quorums for ALL members of those quorums.

 

The structure of the church would be destroyed. Women's needs could not be met based on their needs; everything would have to be done based on the revealed structure of the priesthood, which makes no provision for members of priesthood quorums to be treated differently based on gender.

 

The majority of LDS women who don't want the priesthood and who generally function comfortably (not that there aren't issues at times, but they accept the structure as generally beneficial) within the current framework would see all of that washed away. They would be required to be in priesthood quorums with priesthood responsibilities the same way men are. They wouldn't be very happy with it.

 

This would conflict with the complementary roles of men and women in the way they interact with each other now. The current system, when applied properly, works very well to meet the needs of both men and women. Having both men and women organized solely in priesthood quorums would make it difficult, if not impossible for the needs of either gender to be properly met.

 

Some have said that female priesthood ordinations could be optional. Such statements indicate a lack of understanding about the revelations governing priesthood structures. Being optional would simply not be an option.

 

It seems clear, at least to me, that the current church organization structure - again, when properly implemented - is most effective in meeting the needs of men and women. Having men only hold the priesthood gives us all greater flexibility in meeting the specific needs both men and women have. It provides a structure in which all can be blessed.

 

Ordaining women to the priesthood would require a wholesale revision of the revelations governing priesthood organization. That is not going to happen. And so the non-negotiable demands for female priesthood ordination is, basically, a non-starter.

[Calm]

"- All women would be members of priesthood quorums, just like the men. Since priesthood quorums are only organized by priesthood office - no other definition of quorums is revealed - those quorums would consist of men and women.

- Since women would now be organized in the church under the revealed priesthood structures, no women-specific organizations would be needed or acceptable. Relief Society would be abolished since it would be redundant. Young Women would be folded into the Young Men priesthood structure, which would probably be renamed. There would be no separate men / women meetings or activities, because priesthood quorums are the defining, unified organization for all who hold the priesthood. Period.

- Visiting teaching would be eliminated. Priesthood outreach in the church is not limited by gender under the revelations, and so there would only be home teaching, and both men and women would be expected to home teach men and women.

- Any women-specific meetings or activities or programs would need to be eliminated since all member activity would fall under the structure of priesthood organization, since by revelation, the exercise of priesthood  cannot be limited in such a manner."

This makes no sense to me. Here we would have this drastic major change that would dramatically change the dynamics of the Church, but for some bizarre reason no other changes would be allowed and instead it would automatically just be retrofitted in to the status quo.

[Rain]

Thinking the same thing calmoriah. On both of your last posts. Except for the shouting for joy part as that kind of thing just isn't my nature.

[Wants2know]

I am a fan of Sherri Dew.  In her book, Women and the Priesthood, she states: 

 

"So, back to an earlier question:  What do Latter-Day Saint Women get?

As baptized, endowed daughters of God, we have the privilege of: 

 

1.  Receiving the gift and power of the Holy Ghost;

2.  Receiving personal revelation;

3.  Being endowed in the temple with godly power and with the knowledge to access that power;

4.  Leading and teaching by the spirit;

5.  Having angels as our associates;

6.  receiving spiritual gifts - including charity, spiritual intuition, and moral courage, which are found in women in abudance;

7.  receiving all the blessings of the Atonement;

8.  Entering the new and everlasting covenenant of marriage;

9.  Bearing and rearing children and becoming partners with the Almighty in the progression of His children; and

10.  Most important, we have the opportunity to recieve eternal life.  As Paul taught the Romans:  We are "heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together.

 

What do Mormon women get?  Potentially, everything." 

 

This came from Chapter 6 which was noted in Elder Dallin H Oaks' talk on April 5th, 2014 as a "valuable elaboration of the doctrines stated" in his talk. 

 

As far as I can tell, and I've done my own study, fairly extensively, though I'm by no means a scholar.   I've concluded for myself that there is nothing that we, as women of this church need to have that we don't already have access to through e Priesthood.  There is extensive doctrinal information on this subject.   If I truly thought differently, I would be a member of OW or a different church that ordained women.  At the same time, it seems there is the temptation to woman bash, or label these women evil feminists of some sort.  (I may be feminist, but hardly evil).   I don't feel like either of these sentiments are useful.  If anything, I see this issue in the news as a wonderful means for women to truly come to understand how priesthood authority pertains to them.  I have seen this in my own branch, and the discussions are, for the most part, really wonderful.  In so far as Sister Kelly is concerned, I feel quite sad for her in many ways, but especially in that she does not see the great blessings and authority already available to her.  I'm hopeful that she will find her way, and find her own peace of mind. 

[Stone holm]

"- All women would be members of priesthood quorums, just like the men. Since priesthood quorums are only organized by priesthood office - no other definition of quorums is revealed - those quorums would consist of men and women.

- Since women would now be organized in the church under the revealed priesthood structures, no women-specific organizations would be needed or acceptable. Relief Society would be abolished since it would be redundant. Young Women would be folded into the Young Men priesthood structure, which would probably be renamed. There would be no separate men / women meetings or activities, because priesthood quorums are the defining, unified organization for all who hold the priesthood. Period.

- Visiting teaching would be eliminated. Priesthood outreach in the church is not limited by gender under the revelations, and so there would only be home teaching, and both men and women would be expected to home teach men and women.

- Any women-specific meetings or activities or programs would need to be eliminated since all member activity would fall under the structure of priesthood organization, since by revelation, the exercise of priesthood  cannot be limited in such a manner."

This makes no sense to me. Here we would have this drastic major change that would dramatically change the dynamics of the Church, but for some bizarre reason no other changes would be allowed and instead it would automatically just be retrofitted in to the status quo.

I tend to believe that there are going to be changes. I do not know what those changes are going to be, there are many possibilities ranging from ordaining women to ordaining women to a different priesthood to calling couples instead of individuals to restoring greater autonomy to the Relief Society. The status quo is unsustainable and I suspect the GAs have figured that out, they are just waiting for greater light and knowledge. That does not mean, however, that we are all supposed to stick our head in the stand and believe and say all is right with Zion. We are right now just entering the tempest which precedes change, we may well get stuck in this perfect public relations storm before The Lord guides us out, but He will eventually do so.

[jwhitlock]

"- All women would be members of priesthood quorums, just like the men. Since priesthood quorums are only organized by priesthood office - no other definition of quorums is revealed - those quorums would consist of men and women.

- Since women would now be organized in the church under the revealed priesthood structures, no women-specific organizations would be needed or acceptable. Relief Society would be abolished since it would be redundant. Young Women would be folded into the Young Men priesthood structure, which would probably be renamed. There would be no separate men / women meetings or activities, because priesthood quorums are the defining, unified organization for all who hold the priesthood. Period.

- Visiting teaching would be eliminated. Priesthood outreach in the church is not limited by gender under the revelations, and so there would only be home teaching, and both men and women would be expected to home teach men and women.

- Any women-specific meetings or activities or programs would need to be eliminated since all member activity would fall under the structure of priesthood organization, since by revelation, the exercise of priesthood  cannot be limited in such a manner."

This makes no sense to me. Here we would have this drastic major change that would dramatically change the dynamics of the Church, but for some bizarre reason no other changes would be allowed and instead it would automatically just be retrofitted in to the status quo.

 

Then you need to re-read the revelations given concerning priesthood quorums and structure. No provisions are made for differentiation between priesthood holders in a quorum. The entire revelatory structure given concerning priesthood, its governance, its structure and how it is used would need to be discarded and new revelation received.

 

Why would priesthood ordination be optional for women when it isn't for men?

 

Why would women be allowed to be organized in the priesthood differently than men?

 

Why would the basic principle of total unity within a quorum based solely on priesthood office be discarded, and instead be replaced by another structure based on gender?

 

Why does anyone who has studied the revelations on priesthood think that ordaining women would not cause significant upheaval in church organization or that it would require significant restructuring, including a revision of how priesthood is defined?

 

I don't see anyone addressing the actual real-world impact of ordaining women to the priesthood. I don't see anyone looking at the current revelations and trying to figure out how it could reasonably work (hint - it wouldn't work real well). I don't see anyone trying to figure out the impact of how things would need to be restructured in order to make it anywhere remotely workable and what revelations concerning priesthood would need to be discarded in order to get it to work.

 

There doesn't seem to be any concern with the hard facts of what such changes would actually mean in the real world. It simply boggles the mind.

[jwhitlock]

... ranging from ordaining women to ordaining women to a different priesthood ...

 

Seriously??

[Calm]

Why is priesthood office now tied to age where once it wasn't?

Why don't we now have seventy quorums in the wards?

Edited June 23, 2014 by calmoriah

[Wants2know]

I think this is on the topic, if not, someone let me know and I'll start a new thread.  In a few of the posts there seems to be a question regarding whether or not Relief Society is, in fact, a Quorum.  This is a subject that has come up in our relief society, and there is substantial debate at the moment.  We are hoping to hear from our Branch President on the matter next week.  It seems to me, that most agree that the RS is a society that is an appendage of ther Priesthood, acting from the authority and direction of the Branch leadership.  Correct?  Elder Perry states that a a quorum is three things, First, a class; second, a fraternity, and third a service unit.  I suppose the part about the fraternity may not apply to the relief society, but if we are acting from the authority of the fraternity of the Priesthood, wouldn't this make the Relief Society a Quorum already?  (From a talk he gave in November 2004).  I'm very curious about what the minds on this board think....