Vigils For Sister Kelly Tonight.

[ERayR]

The more I am reading on these boards the more I'm feeling for Sister Kelly.  There is such a negative association with her speaking out, I mean, apostasy?  Really?  She grew up in the church, served a mission, wed in the temple, has made every effort to be open about her questions with her local leadership...  publicly states her love of the Gospel... and she is being excommunicated?  

 

Insert something here about actions speaking so loudly that the words can not be heard.

Edited June 23, 2014 by ERayR

[MorningStar]

The more I am reading on these boards the more I'm feeling for Sister Kelly.  There is such a negative association with her speaking out, I mean, apostasy?  Really?  She grew up in the church, served a mission, wed in the temple, has made every effort to be open about her questions with her local leadership...  publicly states her love of the Gospel... and she is being excommunicated?  

Yes, Sister Kelly grew up in the church and that makes her aware of how frowned upon her actions are.  She seems to have been under the mistaken impression though that if x amount of women stand behind her, that would somehow protect her from church discipline.  It's one thing to believe women should be ordained.  It's another to protest on church grounds, especially after the church specifically asks her not to, then forming a proselyting effort modeled after missionary discussions.  Anyone who grows up in the church knows that only prophets can receive revelation for the church.

[ERayR]

"Celery is nasty." ~ MorningStar

 

Try it with peanut butter.

[MorningStar]

"Celery is nasty." ~ MorningStar

 

Try it with peanut butter.

I can't.  It's still gross. 

[busybee]

Great, a woman bashing thread!  Just what we need today. This attitude illustrates why so many women who aren't OW are fed up with how they are dismissed, demeaned, and generally ignored by far too many men who think the priesthood gives them that right

Woman to woman... lighten up a little.

I am a 'real' Mormon woman and agree with the 95% who have no desire to hold the Priesthood.

I see no evidence of woman bashing here 

[Gray]

I suspect if we were to take that poll again, there would be more women willing to say they favor ordination 

[watermelongirl]

Woman to woman... lighten up a little.

I am a 'real' Mormon woman and agree with the 95% who have no desire to hold the Priesthood.

I see no evidence of woman bashing here 

 

I'm a real Mormon woman too and I see a lot of woman bashing in this thread. I also have a desire for there to be gender parity in the church, and I'm hoping that there will be an inspired response to the fact that there is a sense that we *believe* women are equal (or equally valuable), but our policies and practices say that they aren't. I don't know if that means ordination or something else, but the problem is real.

[escott3564]

Honestly, from what I have read in the Joseph Smith Papers, I think that what is needed, rather than an Ordain Women movement is a Relief Society Restoration movement.  Joseph Smith originally set up the Relief Society to be a priesthood organization for the women of the Church.  Rather than being an auxiliary to the Priesthood as it is today, the RS needs to have equal standing with the Priesthood.  Offices in the RS could remain the same.  They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority.  Also, female leaders in other organizations such as Primary Presidents could hold full authority to act in calling approval, etc.  Women would be allowed to give blessings to the sick and also bless babies as they did in the original Church as organized by Joseph Smith.  As far as the missionary program is concerned, sister missionaries would be allowed to hold offices such as District Leaders, Zone Leaders, AP's, etc.

 

As far as I am concerned, this is the direction that the Church ought to proceed in, and, frankly, from what I have seen, it is actually STARTING to proceed in this direction.

 

Am I the only one who has thought of this option?

[ERayR]

I'm a real Mormon woman too and I see a lot of woman bashing in this thread. I also have a desire for there to be gender parity in the church, and I'm hoping that there will be an inspired response to the fact that there is a sense that we *believe* women are equal (or equally valuable), but our policies and practices say that they aren't. I don't know if that means ordination or something else, but the problem is real.

 

It is hard for me to understand how anybody who attends and understands temple worship can *believe* women are equal unequal (or equally not equally valuable)

[watermelongirl]

Honestly, from what I have read in the Joseph Smith Papers, I think that what is needed, rather than an Ordain Women movement is a Relief Society Restoration movement.  Joseph Smith originally set up the Relief Society to be a priesthood organization for the women of the Church.  Rather than being an auxiliary to the Priesthood as it is today, the RS needs to have equal standing with the Priesthood.  Offices in the RS could remain the same.  They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority.  Also, female leaders in other organizations such as Primary Presidents could hold full authority to act in calling approval, etc.  Women would be allowed to give blessings to the sick and also bless babies as they did in the original Church as organized by Joseph Smith.  As far as the missionary program is concerned, sister missionaries would be allowed to hold offices such as District Leaders, Zone Leaders, AP's, etc.

 

As far as I am concerned, this is the direction that the Church ought to proceed in, and, frankly, from what I have seen, it is actually STARTING to proceed in this direction.

 

Am I the only one who has thought of this option?

I actually really agree with this. It would be a wonderful starting place. I would love to see the women of the church embrace with passion the goals of the Relief Society.

 

Do you think though, that the burning desire has been "bred" out of them (for lack of a better term) as their autonomy has decreased over the years? How do you make sisters want their autonomy again when prophets have told them that their place is under the priesthood, not beside it?

[watermelongirl]

It is hard for me to understand how anybody who attends and understands temple worship can *believe* women are equal unequal (or equally not equally valuable)

Expand your mind a bit. I have been a temple worker and do believe that I understand the ceremonies.

[ksfisher]

 They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority.  Also, female leaders in other organizations such as Primary Presidents could hold full authority to act in calling approval, etc. 

 

 

 

So if the Relief Society President and the Primary President both call the same sister to be a teacher in their organizations who wins?  Think it through.  Someone has to coordinate the activities of the various organizations in the ward.  If a sister confesses a sin to the bishop that would temporarily disqualify her from holding a calling do the heads of all the organizations need to be informed?  Think it through.

[ERayR]

Expand your mind a bit. I have been a temple worker and do believe that I understand the ceremonies.

 

The whole ceremony from the creation account to the removal of, Adam and Eve from the garden, where they had to work in unison and harmony, to their progression and receipt of the tokens as equals.

[escott3564]

I actually really agree with this. It would be a wonderful starting place. I would love to see the women of the church embrace with passion the goals of the Relief Society.

 

Do you think though, that the burning desire has been "bred" out of them (for lack of a better term) as their autonomy has decreased over the years? How do you make sisters want their autonomy again when prophets have told them that their place is under the priesthood, not beside it?

 

I really don't think that the desire has been "bred" out of them.  I think that the RS women, particularly the RS women of today, have simply functioned in a way that they feel their autonomy has not been disrupted.  In other words, they have "gone through the motions" of getting the approvals they needed, and then just pushed forward with whatever they wanted to do!  LOL

 

As a temple worker, you have an intimate knowledge of what those ceremonies mean and the kind of equality that exists among men and women in the temple.  I am not a temple worker, but have been an avid temple attendee for years, and my in-laws were recently released as the temple president and matron in our area. 

 

My personal feeling is that what Joseph Smith originally established, and what Heavenly Father ultimate has in mind, is precisely the kind of organization that I presented.  It was Brigham Young who was reluctant to reorganize the RS at all, and when Eliza Snow did finally convince him that the organization needed to happen, he was the one who placed the RS in an auxiliary position.  Just like the Priesthood Ban was finally rescinded, I think it is high time that the RS was restored to its proper place along side the Priesthood rather than following behind it.

[ERayR]

They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority.  Also, female leaders in other organizations such as Primary Presidents could hold full authority to act in calling approval, etc. 

 

 

You have not thought this through.  Every member, male or female, is answerable to priesthood authority.  If not the organization would quickly become chaos.  Can you imagine the Relief Society president wanting sister x for a calling and the Young Women and Primary wanting the same person and none being answerable to the Bishop and all issuing a call to the same person.  It would be equally as disruptive for all the rest of the organizations.  Imagine the Elders Quorum president issuing a call to the same brother who was just called by the primary president to be  teacher.

[Sleeper Cell]

Yes.  And these are almost Dallin Oaks precise words, without looking I think he,said "separate but different".

 

I was responding to a post defending the OW position. Previous posters had suggested that ordaining women would spell the end of Relief Society.  The poster to whom I was responding suggested that if women were ordained, it would still be possible for women to retain their women-only Relief Society organization.  He even suggested the possibility of separate priesthood quorums for men and women (presumably converting the Relief Society into a women’s priesthood quorum)..  

 

In short, I was teasing that poster for the inconsistency  of his “separate but equal” priesthood quorum proposal with his support  of the  “women should be ordained as a matter of gender equality” position.   

[escott3564]

So if the Relief Society President and the Primary President both call the same sister to be a teacher in their organizations who wins?  Think it through.  Someone has to coordinate the activities of the various organizations in the ward.  If a sister confesses a sin to the bishop that would temporarily disqualify her from holding a calling do the heads of all the organizations need to be informed?  Think it through.

Of course there would still be similar checks and balances in place. 

 

All I am saying is that the women in the Church would have equal input in that process.

 

Just because there are details that would need to be worked out doesn't mean that my idea couldn't work or should be easily dismissed for not "thinking it through".

[ERayR]

Of course there would still be similar checks and balances in place. 

 

All I am saying is that the women in the Church would have equal input in that process.

 

Just because there are details that would need to be worked out doesn't mean that my idea couldn't work or should be easily dismissed for not "thinking it through".

 

I can assure you that in our ward the sisters have equal input in the process. 

[Zakuska]

It is hard for me to understand how anybody who attends and understands temple worship can *believe* women are equal unequal (or equally not equally valuable)

Agreed. It seems to me that people were either sleeping while attending the temple, or failed to make all the connections presented. Perhaps if their husband had explained better? Or maybe their husbands were sleeping too (Ill admit Ive dozed off a couple times.) Maybe these are single sisters who didnt have a husband to explain?  Perhaps they didn't listen in early morning Seminary?  Maybe they never went to Seminary?

 

In the OT Aaronic Temple Priests wore what is known as an Ephod, a uniform that set them appart and showed their rank in the Priesthood. We read about  the ephod yesterday in Gospel Doctrine class where the Priest  hid Goliaths sword behind it so people wouldn't find it  because Israelites reverenced the Holy nature of the clothing and wouldn't go near. (He gave Goliaths sword back to David when David fled King Saul and needed a weapon to defend himself), Mormon men and women wear the exact same modern day equivalent of the Aaronic High Priest Ephod.  If women don't hold the priesthood why does her Rank Patch state otherwise?

.

With all the people joining in with the OW it appears that doctrinal illiteracy is pretty rampant in the church.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Zakuska

[escott3564]

You have not thought this through.  Every member, male or female, is answerable to priesthood authority.  If not the organization would quickly become chaos.  Can you imagine the Relief Society president wanting sister x for a calling and the Young Women and Primary wanting the same person and none being answerable to the Bishop and all issuing a call to the same person.  It would be equally as disruptive for all the rest of the organizations.  Imagine the Elders Quorum president issuing a call to the same brother who was just called by the primary president to be  teacher.

I am not saying that all of those organizational processes that make sense be abolished.  If that is what you thought I meant than I misspoke or you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

[bluebell]

Honestly, from what I have read in the Joseph Smith Papers, I think that what is needed, rather than an Ordain Women movement is a Relief Society Restoration movement.  Joseph Smith originally set up the Relief Society to be a priesthood organization for the women of the Church.  Rather than being an auxiliary to the Priesthood as it is today, the RS needs to have equal standing with the Priesthood.  Offices in the RS could remain the same.  They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority.  Also, female leaders in other organizations such as Primary Presidents could hold full authority to act in calling approval, etc.  Women would be allowed to give blessings to the sick and also bless babies as they did in the original Church as organized by Joseph Smith.  As far as the missionary program is concerned, sister missionaries would be allowed to hold offices such as District Leaders, Zone Leaders, AP's, etc.

 

As far as I am concerned, this is the direction that the Church ought to proceed in, and, frankly, from what I have seen, it is actually STARTING to proceed in this direction.

 

Am I the only one who has thought of this option?

 

Are you saying that you don't believe that women leaders should have to answer to anyone, while male leaders still need to answer to those in leadership positions above them?

[escott3564]

OK, since several of you have successfully nitpicked one of my sentences, I'll remove it.  How do you feel about the rest of my statement?

 

Honestly, from what I have read in the Joseph Smith Papers, I think that what is needed, rather than an Ordain Women movement is a Relief Society Restoration movement.  Joseph Smith originally set up the Relief Society to be a priesthood organization for the women of the Church.  Rather than being an auxiliary to the Priesthood as it is today, the RS needs to have equal standing with the Priesthood.  Offices in the RS could remain the same.  They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority.  Women would be allowed to give blessings to the sick and also bless babies as they did in the original Church as organized by Joseph Smith.  As far as the missionary program is concerned, sister missionaries would be allowed to hold offices such as District Leaders, Zone Leaders, AP's, etc.

[bluebell]

How do you make sisters want their autonomy again when prophets have told them that their place is under the priesthood, not beside it?

 

The priesthood is the power and authority to act in the name of God.  I don't believe trying to place women beside that authority and power and having them no longer be under it, is the answer.

 

Sometimes i think these conversations get to the point where we start advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater without realizing it.  

[escott3564]

Are you saying that you don't believe that women leaders should have to answer to anyone, while male leaders still need to answer to those in leadership positions above them?

 

No, I am not saying that at all.  Please read my restructured statement below:

 

Honestly, from what I have read in the Joseph Smith Papers, I think that what is needed, rather than an Ordain Women movement is a Relief Society Restoration movement.  Joseph Smith originally set up the Relief Society to be a priesthood organization for the women of the Church.  Rather than being an auxiliary to the Priesthood as it is today, the RS needs to have equal standing with the Priesthood.  Offices in the RS could remain the same.  They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority.  Women would be allowed to give blessings to the sick and also bless babies as they did in the original Church as organized by Joseph Smith.  As far as the missionary program is concerned, sister missionaries would be allowed to hold offices such as District Leaders, Zone Leaders, AP's, etc.

Edited June 23, 2014 by escott3564

[bluebell]

OK, since several of you have successfully nitpicked one of my sentences, I'll remove it.  How do you feel about the rest of my statement?

 

Honestly, from what I have read in the Joseph Smith Papers, I think that what is needed, rather than an Ordain Women movement is a Relief Society Restoration movement.  Joseph Smith originally set up the Relief Society to be a priesthood organization for the women of the Church.  Rather than being an auxiliary to the Priesthood as it is today, the RS needs to have equal standing with the Priesthood.  Offices in the RS could remain the same.  They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority.  Women would be allowed to give blessings to the sick and also bless babies as they did in the original Church as organized by Joseph Smith.  As far as the missionary program is concerned, sister missionaries would be allowed to hold offices such as District Leaders, Zone Leaders, AP's, etc.

 

Perhaps the best place to start with this argument is to provide the reference where JS set the RS up as a priesthood organization.  

 

Besides that, the idea that the RS president should not have to answer to the bishop, or the stake president, or the Apostles, or the Prophet seems absurd. There are no male leadership callings which don't require the leader to answer to priesthood authority above and beyond his own.  I'm not sure why women should be treated any differently.