Vigils For Sister Kelly Tonight.

[GingerRed]

If she is upset by the decision, then she can blame the LORD. It was HIM who made the call. She would need to take it up with Him. 

[Danzo]

In one sense it may not be, since it gives her a chance to start over and repent outside of the covenants that she made (and broke, IMHO) at baptism. But it is hardly a cause for celebration. The excommunicated member is now outside of the saving power of the gospel. And up until now, her response has been one of defiance. Hopefully the loss of the spirit that accompanies an action like this will be the splash of cold water she needs, though the numbers aren't great for people who are excommunicated for apostasy. 

 

Didn't the apostasy happen before the excommunication?

 

Then the sad happened long before the excommunication.

[Buzzard]

Didn't the apostasy happen before the excommunication?

 

Then the sad happened long before the excommunication.

The whole thing is sad. The defiance is sad, the apostasy is sad. Being outside of the church is sad. I'm sure the bishop who felt guided to do this is sad. That others may throw away their place in the kingdom in a show of support for her will be sad. There is just not a lot of happy in any of this. 

Although if she comes back into the fold and is rebaptized at some point, there will be a nice supply of happy at that day. 

[juliann]

It seems that this thread has also been hijacked. I have no idea what the last couple of threads have to do with the vigil. But they do show a lot of contention between the members of the church over women's issues. I  don't think that such contention would exist without OW but then again maybe all this was somewhere below the surface among the lds membership. So, perhaps it is good to have it all come out as it has been coming out.  Should we thank Kate for this? Maybe. I suppose that it depends just where all this leads the lds church. One thing is for sure, the leadership has lost the narrative when it comes to unifying the saints. It is more and more a church that is divided. Strangely, on sunday everything seems peaceful  and in harmony as if nothing is happening on the internet. I have to wonder if such feelings as being displayed on the internet will reach the sunday meetings. It seems that the vigil has worked because it has created more contention, debate, ill feelings etc and it seems to be a win-win for kate regardless of what happens. OW cannot lose. They seem to have the momentum. And since they are an activist organization, it was their plan all along: to gain the momentum. I am sure that there will be more vigils on Tuesday when the bishop's court convenes again.

 

If KK is sanctioned in any way, I think "OW" has lost. At the very least they need a more effective spokesperson and probably a new name.  To add to the list of KK's mistakes, not going to that DC was a big one. She now can't characterize it, without any interference, to her advantage. It also allowed the bishop to take the umph out of the vigils by not giving her a quick decision in person (not that that was his intent, he wanted the additional time.)

 

But it can't be ignored that OW has forced the church into some statements that give the moderates the go ahead.  We have now been told we can talk, even in RS,  and they will listen.  And oh boy, do I think they are going to more publicly listen to moderates now. The secrecy has been an impediment. I'm posting this link http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58093764-78/women-church-think-ordain.html.csp all over, but I think it gives a good indication of how OW has opened up the field for the moderates who do know how to use the right "tone."   And there are many of us.  Many. 

 

The minute OW comes up, it will bring up denunciations...but it also brings up the topics. And I think you will be hard pressed to find women who aren't dissatisfied on some level.  I know several in my ward alone just from casual conversation. I congratulated a sister yesterday on what an incredible role model she was for our girls who need to be prepared for all the world hands them.  She is in charge of the budget for a large county and has met with Pres. Obama in a group of like officials.  The only reason anyone knows this is because of off hand comments she has made.  So she tells me that she was teaching a lesson in YW about education and career and was told off by another leader...publicly, right in the middle.  She was devastated and after years of knowing her and being afraid to say too much because I thought she was so "Molly Mormon," she quietly talked about how limited women are in the church.  In other words, just because no one has said anything out loud is no measure of what they are thinking alone.

[juliann]

If she is upset by the decision, then she can blame the LORD. It was HIM who made the call. She would need to take it up with Him. 

This is an immeasurable tragedy for all concerned. Can't you give it a rest for even a few minutes?

[ttribe]

If she is upset by the decision, then she can blame the LORD. It was HIM who made the call. She would need to take it up with Him.

And you're sure of that exactly how?

[GingerRed]

And you're sure of that exactly how? 

 

Because her bishop and other leaders would have made that decision consulting with prayer as to what to do. I have no reason to believe her ecclesiastical leaders made this decision without the Lord's direction.

 

 

Why? Do you think they just made this decision all by themselves? 

[ttribe]

Because her bishop and other leaders would have made that decision consulting with prayer as to what to do. I have no reason to believe her ecclesiastical leaders made this decision without the Lord's direction.

So, you are assuming that because they have been ordained and set apart to their positions their actions are, by definition, correct. There are never any mistakes made in such matters; is that what you believe?

 

Why? Do you think they just made this decision all by themselves?

I haven't prayed for such direction; have you?

[stemelbow]

So, you are assuming that because they have been ordained and set apart to their positions their actions are, by definition, correct. There are never any mistakes made in such matters; is that what you believe?

 

I haven't prayed for such direction; have you?

It's probably fair to point out that two separate people can get two separate results via personal inspiration. They both can be right, perhaps. Probably not fair to characterize someone's assumption that the leaders did their best and sought inspiration as someone assuming infallibility.

[watermelongirl]

This is an immeasurable tragedy for all concerned. Can't you give it a rest for even a few minutes?

Agreed, my heart hurts for all involved and I find myself hoping that the conversation about gender inequalities doesn't stop because of the smugness of some who will say things like, "it's about time," or "I told you so" or "it's the will of the Lord." I have no doubt that His heart aches too.

[Zakuska]

Any excommunications or discipline coming for  attending a Vigil?  Or Organizing a Vigil?

 

That will be instresting to see any fallout there.

[GingerRed]

Like I said, I have no reason to believe they did not seek help from the Lord in earnest prayer, about such a serious matter. They prayed and got their answer.  Until proof is shown to me that they did NOT seek out the Lord's direction in any way ,shape, or form, then I will believe that is how it was handled. They prayed, they got their answer from divine inspiration, just like all of us are entitled to.  I, personally, feel they did the right thing,and  by God's will.  Why would they choose to go about it to do anything less in this case? Of course anyone has their free agency to disagree, or think they made that decision without any direction or support, or think they got a wrong answer just cause they are 'infallible'...that's your prerogative.

Edited June 23, 2014 by GingerRed

[sdc999]

just like they pleaded with the lord to give the black man the priesthood and couldn't understand for so long why it was withheld.  Now, it was a manmade decision and not the lord's but the lord couldn't step in when they pleaded.  things than make you go hmmm.    I've seen too many consultations with the lord that have gone astray.  I've even seen death ..

[Erin15]

This is an immeasurable tragedy for all concerned.

I disagree.  Everyone has need for correction now and again in their lives.  Making mistakes and repenting of them is part of the plan, always has been.  There are many people who have come under church discipline, and have used the opportunity to correct their lives.  From my conversations with them, they have mentioned what a blessing it was for them in the end.

 

Kate Kelly's journey may be unnecessarily public, but it is not tragic, nor is it immeasurably so.  Correction and repentance are simply part of the plan.  It happens every day.

 

Whether her story turns out to be joyful or tragic in the end, is entirely up to her and what she chooses to do with this correction from the Lord.  

 

As for me, I pray she chooses to repent and return.

[Stone holm]

Kate Kelly's "serial abuser" analogy with the Church cost her any sympathy from me. Until then, I did not believe she had crossed the line, but that was a step too far for me. If OW wants the support of members in their quest for gender equality in the Church, they need to step away from the radical victim hood propaganda. They cannot have it both ways.

[escott3564]

If KK is sanctioned in any way, I think "OW" has lost. At the very least they need a more effective spokesperson and probably a new name.  To add to the list of KK's mistakes, not going to that DC was a big one. She now can't characterize it, without any interference, to her advantage. It also allowed the bishop to take the umph out of the vigils by not giving her a quick decision in person (not that that was his intent, he wanted the additional time.)

 

But it can't be ignored that OW has forced the church into some statements that give the moderates the go ahead.  We have now been told we can talk, even in RS,  and they will listen.  And oh boy, do I think they are going to more publicly listen to moderates now. The secrecy has been an impediment. I'm posting this link http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58093764-78/women-church-think-ordain.html.csp all over, but I think it gives a good indication of how OW has opened up the field for the moderates who do know how to use the right "tone."   And there are many of us.  Many. 

 

The minute OW comes up, it will bring up denunciations...but it also brings up the topics. And I think you will be hard pressed to find women who aren't dissatisfied on some level.  I know several in my ward alone just from casual conversation. I congratulated a sister yesterday on what an incredible role model she was for our girls who need to be prepared for all the world hands them.  She is in charge of the budget for a large county and has met with Pres. Obama in a group of like officials.  The only reason anyone knows this is because of off hand comments she has made.  So she tells me that she was teaching a lesson in YW about education and career and was told off by another leader...publicly, right in the middle.  She was devastated and after years of knowing her and being afraid to say too much because I thought she was so "Molly Mormon," she quietly talked about how limited women are in the church.  In other words, just because no one has said anything out loud is no measure of what they are thinking alone.

 

Beautifully stated, Juliann! 

 

Let me say that I am another of those moderate women who would like to see positive change made within the Church.  As I have stated on this thread and in other places, what I think that many of us desire is the type of change that Joseph Smith wanted to initiate for the women of the Church when he first organized it.  I have spoken with several women who agree that giving blessings to the sick makes a lot more sense coming from women since it is part of their nurturing role anyway.  I also feel that sister missionaries should be able to serve as Zone Leaders, District Leaders, and AP's just like their male counterparts.  There are also other leadership roles such as Executive Secretary and Sunday School President, which have traditionally been male roles, but have no true mandate that they MUST be held by men.

 

These are the kind of changes that I think would make the Church stronger.

 

Also, more lessons in YW on the importance of education, and lessons in RS and during RS activity nights involving job searching, building resumes, etc. are the types of things that will further the women of the Church today.

Edited June 24, 2014 by escott3564

[watermelongirl]

Beautifully stated, Juliann!

Let me say that I am another of those moderate women who would like to see positive change made within the Church. As I have stated on this thread and in other places, what I think that many of us desire is the type of change that Joseph Smith wanted to initiate for the women of the Church when he first organized it. I have spoken with several women who agree that giving blessings to the sick makes a lot more sense coming from women since it is part of their nurturing role anyway. I also feel that sister missionaries should be able to serve as Zone Leaders, District Leaders, and AP's just like their male counterparts. There are also other leadership roles such as Executive Secretary and Sunday School President, which have traditionally been male roles, but have no true mandate that they MUST be held by men.

These are the kind of changes that I think would make the Church stronger.

Also, more lessons in YW on the importance of education, and lessons in RS and during RS activity nights involving job searching, building resumes, etc. are the types of things that will further the women of the Church today.

Me too. I am hoping and praying that the conversations keep happening and that both men and women will hear them with an open heart.

[changed]

Me too. I am hoping and praying that the conversations keep happening and that both men and women will hear them with an open heart.

 

Yes, we're all hoping that Kelly & her followers will finally listen with an open heart to understand what it really means to be female.... unfortunately, this does not seem to be happening, as she has refused to listen to what everyone - the other 95% - is trying to tell her.  It's sad it has to come down to this.  

Edited June 24, 2014 by changed

[Rain]

Beautifully stated, Juliann!

Let me say that I am another of those moderate women who would like to see positive change made within the Church. As I have stated on this thread and in other places, what I think that many of us desire is the type of change that Joseph Smith wanted to initiate for the women of the Church when he first organized it. I have spoken with several women who agree that giving blessings to the sick makes a lot more sense coming from women since it is part of their nurturing role anyway. I also feel that sister missionaries should be able to serve as Zone Leaders, District Leaders, and AP's just like their male counterparts. There are also other leadership roles such as Executive Secretary and Sunday School President, which have traditionally been male roles, but have no true mandate that they MUST be held by men.

These are the kind of changes that I think would make the Church stronger.

Also, more lessons in YW on the importance of education, and lessons in RS and during RS activity nights involving job searching, building resumes, etc. are the types of things that will further the women of the Church today.

Many of those things are already happening under how the priesthood is set up now. If you want those things in RS talk to your RS president and let her know you are interested, though having been provident living specialist I think the employment thing would be better as a ward activity of some sort since it is important for the men and youth to know as well and I would guess you would have limited attendance with individual organizations.

One of my companions was something comparable to an AP. I'm not exactly sure how it worked since the mission split and we had different mission presidents by that time but I have since heard of it happening in other missions as well.

I disagree with having a woman executive secretary if only for the amount of time that the exc sec and the bishop spend alone together - my husband was one.

Overall, time and time again many of the things I hear which are wanted could be done now and are being done now. The problem is the implementation that happens on local levels not the setup of the priesthood.

[Rain]

One more thing about healing. I have had this quote from President Packer on my mind a lot lately. I will have to edit on my computer later when I can do the quote thing, but for now he said:

I have come to know that faith is a real power, not just an expression of belief. There are few things more powerful than the faithful prayers of a righteous mother."

My memory is very bad, but I remember reading something Joseph Smith wrote (lectures on faith?) about Christ's power coming from faith. This leads me to believe there is a much greater connection between priesthood and a woman's faith than you can see on the surface. I think we will someday be surprised by it.

[juliann]

Many of those things are already happening under how the priesthood is set up now. If you want those things in RS talk to your RS president and let her know you are interested, though having been provident living specialist I think the employment thing would be better as a ward activity of some sort since it is important for the men and youth to know as well and I would guess you would have limited attendance with individual organizations.

 

Putting the boys and girls together for career talk is a very good idea.  That would be a good way to avoid the incessant motherhood talk that such things turn into if it is only girls.  With the boys there they wouldn't feel the need to tell them that they don't have to worry about being able to support themselves because they will be fathers. 

[escott3564]

Yes, we're all hoping that Kelly & her followers will finally listen with an open heart to understand what it really means to be female.... unfortunately, this does not seem to be happening, as she has refused to listen to what everyone - the other 95% - is trying to tell her.  It's sad it has to come down to this.  

 

Could you explain what you mean by "what it really means to be female"?

[escott3564]

Putting the boys and girls together for career talk is a very good idea.  That would be a good way to avoid the incessant motherhood talk that such things turn into if it is only girls.  With the boys there they wouldn't feel the need to tell them that they don't have to worry about being able to support themselves because they will be fathers. 

 

As a former career counselor, and having taught quite a few classes on job prep, I agree that mixed activities involving resume building, etc., are certainly a welcome thing.  However, I also see nothing wrong with having separate classes on this as well, particularly during RS activity night.  There are certain issues that are unique to women when returning to the job market after being a homemaker for a number of years.  A lot of my workshops involved building up the confidence of women who felt like because they HAD chosen to be full-time Moms, they really had no place in the work environment.  This is, of course, not the case.  As a Homemaker and full-time Mom, you have the hardest unpaid job out there!  You are a budget manager, a party planner, a meal planner, a nurse, etc. all rolled into one!  You handle everything from accounts receivable to daycare.  There are ways to word these things on your resume so that staffing managers understand what your skill sets are.

[escott3564]

Many of those things are already happening under how the priesthood is set up now. If you want those things in RS talk to your RS president and let her know you are interested, though having been provident living specialist I think the employment thing would be better as a ward activity of some sort since it is important for the men and youth to know as well and I would guess you would have limited attendance with individual organizations.

One of my companions was something comparable to an AP. I'm not exactly sure how it worked since the mission split and we had different mission presidents by that time but I have since heard of it happening in other missions as well.

I disagree with having a woman executive secretary if only for the amount of time that the exc sec and the bishop spend alone together - my husband was one.

Overall, time and time again many of the things I hear which are wanted could be done now and are being done now. The problem is the implementation that happens on local levels not the setup of the priesthood.

 

This is great, and I have also noticed a lot of these positive changes in my ward as well.  I have taught several RS job prep workshops in my ward as well.  I think, however, that if there was something official in the CHI, it would help guide more leaders to do more of this on the local level.

[why me]

As a former career counselor, and having taught quite a few classes on job prep, I agree that mixed activities involving resume building, etc., are certainly a welcome thing.  However, I also see nothing wrong with having separate classes on this as well, particularly during RS activity night.  There are certain issues that are unique to women when returning to the job market after being a homemaker for a number of years.  A lot of my workshops involved building up the confidence of women who felt like because they HAD chosen to be full-time Moms, they really had no place in the work environment.  This is, of course, not the case.  As a Homemaker and full-time Mom, you have the hardest unpaid job out there!  You are a budget manager, a party planner, a meal planner, a nurse, etc. all rolled into one!  You handle everything from accounts receivable to daycare.  There are ways to word these things on your resume so that staffing managers understand what your skill sets are.

The problem with this idea is that it can't be church wide. In europe, women are pretty active in the job market and their education is radically different than in the United States. And of course, different parts of europe always cater to their own culture. In northern europe, girls are taught that they should have a career and forget being a full time mom. Daycare is set up accordingly as is the government pension schemes for women working. Likewise for many other countries in europe.

 

I am afraid that you are describing life for women in the US but not for the rest of the world. From my travels in europe among church members, I see a different picture when it comes to men and women. Mormon women are in the workplace and children are in the public daycare system. And mom and dad pick up the child from the daycare depending on who gets out of work first. Not many homemakers to be found.

 

Although this is the vigil thread, I must say that members need to see the world wide church. For example, in russia, most women would not be interested in the priesthood because of their orthodox tradition. Russians tend to be rather conservative when it comes to faith. In africa one would find the same sentiment. American definitions of equality between the genders may not fit the world wide church and the various cultures the church embraces. In fact, the notion of OW may go against the grain of many women abroad and may be looked upon as cultural hegemony as demonstrated by some of the United States posters here and elsewhere. What is good for US lds women may not be lovingly embraced by lds women worldwide. What kate did not seem to understand is that god overlooks all women in this world in his church and does not necessarily embrace US or western equality values.

Edited June 24, 2014 by why me