Vigils For Sister Kelly Tonight.

[escott3564]

I will re post my edit to a previous post.

Edit:  Reread your revised post and apologize for misreading the revision.  I can agree with it.  I really think that , in practice, it is that way.  In the wards I have been in anyway.  We just don't verbalize it.  In the wards that I know of the Relief Society president is an integral part of the Priesthood Executive Committee.

 

escott:  Yes!  And interdependence is exactly all I am advocating for.  As I said, I think that the Church is moving in this direction.

 

In my part of the vineyard it is there. In the bishopric, just recently released having served their term, the Relief Society president served very much as a 3rd counselor to our bishop.  Remember all of the priesthood quorums do not get to perform all the ordinances.

And that is how it is supposed to work.  Your ward is a great example of what I think should be in practice across ALL wards.  Unfortunately, as in the case that Watermelongirl pointed out, not all wards are following the type of practice that your ward is.  My ward also runs very much like yours.  All I am suggesting is that there is a verbalization in the CHI basically outlining that ALL wards run the way our current wards are running. 

Edited June 23, 2014 by escott3564

[Nofear]

This is a problem with your bishop and how he is personally doing things.  That's a hard situation to be in, and probably one that the men in your ward are struggling with as well.

Any recommendations for somebody in this scenario, especially a sister, where a bishop mismanages his authority?

[Tacenda]

http://www.ksl.com/?...&s_cid=topstory

 

Saw this on the news last night.  It's very much in the news now.  And today there is a division among the LDS, I've seen it on FB already.  What will all this lead to I'm wondering.  Probably not going to do much.  By this time next year, we'll have another thing and then another and another.  But it gives us something to talk about.   Notice the guy in back of the reporter, he bothered me.  Didn't help Kate's cause at all, dumb guy.  Not that I fully support what she and OW are doing. 

[bluebell]

So in any case in which a woman receives inspiration for a calling and the bishop wants to "staff" another auxiliary, it is okay for his desires/inspiration to trump hers? 

 

Having been both the YWs president and the RS president before i have been in this position and it has taught me how important it is to understand that the bishop has privileged information about people that other leaders are not usually given.  And that that information often impacts what callings those people should be called to or are willing to accept.

 

This is why it is absolutely appropriate for the bishop to have final say in who serves in what calling.

[watermelongirl]

 

You said of your ideal situation women leaders in the church- "They just no longer have to answer to a Priesthood authority." 

 

There is no way to separate RS from the Priesthood without also separating them from the prophet.

I would argue that they are already separated from the prophet. The average local woman's concerns are headed off by any number of men before they can ever get that far up the chain.

 

Now, the average local man's concerns are probably headed off as well, but think of it this way:

 

Sister 1 --> RS Pres --> Bishop

 

Sister 2 --> RS Pres 1 --> Stake RS Pres --> SP

 

Brother 1 --> EQ Pres 1 --> Bishop --> SP .... so on.

 

The General Relief Society is insulated from the concerns of local sisters by the local bishoprics. So when we think that the General Relief Society can speak for the sisters, we have to factor in the extra monkey wrench that sisters don't have a line to go to other sisters and then to the prophet. It nearly always would go through the bishopric or stake presidency first and then MAYBE passed up through priesthood line to the prophet. It would be extremely rare for a concern to go up the chain without going through brethren first. So could the General RS Presidency lead us more effectively with a more direct means of communicating?

[bluebell]

Any recommendations for somebody in this scenario, especially a sister, where a bishop mismanages his authority?

 

Going to the stake president is really the only recourse.  If a sister is not serving in a leadership position herself then she should first discuss the issue with that leader (for example-if she feels something isn't working in RS because of the actions of the bishop, she needs to take that to the RS president) but the stake president is pretty much where the buck will stop, unless we are talking about gross misconduct and then the chain could continue up the leadership ladder.

[watermelongirl]

Having been both the YWs president and the RS president before i have been in this position and it has taught me how important it is to understand that the bishop has privileged information about people that other leaders are not usually given.  And that that information often impacts what callings those people should be called to or are willing to accept.

 

This is why it is absolutely appropriate for the bishop to have final say in who serves in what calling.

I think there is a line between "having final say" and completely ignoring the inspiration of the women called to make the calling. It happens. Nobody's perfect and it happens. We can do better.

[busybee]

And you, being better educated and enlightened, are the one to show the ignorant and benighted how bad off they are?

How does being raised in a different culture equate to me being better educated and enlightened, but if the shoe fits...

[bluebell]

I would argue that they are already separated from the prophet. The average local woman's concerns are headed off by any number of men before they can ever get that far up the chain.

 

Now, the average local man's concerns are probably headed off as well, but think of it this way:

 

Sister 1 --> RS Pres --> Bishop

 

Sister 2 --> RS Pres 1 --> Stake RS Pres --> SP

 

Brother 1 --> EQ Pres 1 --> Bishop --> SP .... so on.

 

The General Relief Society is insulated from the concerns of local sisters by the local bishoprics. So when we think that the General Relief Society can speak for the sisters, we have to factor in the extra monkey wrench that sisters don't have a line to go to other sisters and then to the prophet. It nearly always would go through the bishopric or stake presidency first and then MAYBE passed up through priesthood line to the prophet. It would be extremely rare for a concern to go up the chain without going through brethren first. So could the General RS Presidency lead us more effectively with a more direct means of communicating?

 

The GRS is not at all insulated from the concerns of the local women.  The GRS president just spoke in my mother's stake in Montana and they are very well informed.

 

They have access to local RS presidencies as well as stake presidencies without having to go thru any bishops or stake presidents, other than to inform them of when meetings will be occurring so that they can be organized.  

[bluebell]

I think there is a line between "having final say" and completely ignoring the inspiration of the women called to make the calling. It happens. Nobody's perfect and it happens. We can do better.

 

Exactly.  We can all do better, both men and women.

[CA Steve]

Having been both the YWs president and the RS president before i have been in this position and it has taught me how important it is to understand that the bishop has privileged information about people that other leaders are not usually given.  And that that information often impacts what callings those people should be called to or are willing to accept.

 

This is why it is absolutely appropriate for the bishop to have final say in who serves in what calling.

Why does the bishop's privileged information trump the privileged information of the RS or Primary President?

Because women are not allowed access to all that information.

[Tacenda]

Having been both the YWs president and the RS president before i have been in this position and it has taught me how important it is to understand that the bishop has privileged information about people that other leaders are not usually given.  And that that information often impacts what callings those people should be called to or are willing to accept.

 

This is why it is absolutely appropriate for the bishop to have final say in who serves in what calling.

That's a great point and exactly right.  I remember it would feel like forever for the bishop to respond to requests for specific members to fulfill different callings in the various presidencies I've been in. 

[watermelongirl]

The GRS is not at all insulated from the concerns of the local women.  The GRS president just spoke in my mother's stake in Montana and they are very well informed.

 

They have access to local RS presidencies as well as stake presidencies without having to go thru any bishops or stake presidents, other than to inform them of when meetings will be occurring so that they can be organized.  

Where do they fit in the chain of command? How do they have access?

 

If the average Stake RS president has a concern, can she take it directly to the GRS presidency? Where does she go?

[Tacenda]

Why does the bishop's privileged information trump the privileged information of the RS or Primary President?

Because women are not allowed access to all that information.

Interesting...I just responded to bluebell but didn't think of it in this way.  This is a great point also, but what about the YM's, HP's Group & Elder's Quorum Presidencies, don't they need to go through the bishop also? 

[bluebell]

Why does the bishop's privileged information trump the privileged information of the RS or Primary President?

Because women are not allowed access to all that information.

 

Because sometimes no one but the bishop is allowed access to certain information.  Usually because the person in question does not want anyone else to know-they want it kept private.  

 

When i was serving as the RS president, there were things that i and the bishop knew that no one else did, including our counselors.  There were things i knew that the bishop didn't.  It was all a measure of 'need to know'.  If you didn't need to know it, you didn't.  Gender had nothing to do with it. 

 

This idea that its some conspiracy to keep women in the dark is just silly.

[bluebell]

Where do they fit in the chain of command? How do they have access?

 

If the average Stake RS president has a concern, can she take it directly to the GRS presidency? Where does she go?

 

Having access to all the relief societies in the world is part of their authority.  If a stake RS has an issue that is relevant to the GRS then she can go directly there, just like if a ward relief society presidency has an issue that is relevant to the stake relief society, she just has to call them up and talk to them about it. She doesn't need to first talk to her bishop, and then talk to the stake presidency and all that hoopla.

 

And the same goes for the stake RS president-she can just call up any RS president in the stake that she needs to speak to, she doesn't have to get anyone else involved unless they need to be involved.

[CA Steve]

Because sometimes no one but the bishop is allowed access to certain information.  Usually because the person in question does not want anyone else to know-they want it kept private.  

 

When i was serving as the RS president, there were things that i and the bishop knew that no one else did, including our counselors.  There were things i knew that the bishop didn't.  It was all a measure of 'need to know'.  If you didn't need to know it, you didn't.  Gender had nothing to do with it. 

 

This idea that its some conspiracy to keep women in the dark is just silly.

It isn't a conspiracy. It's an example of the level of authority and responsibility that men are allowed to exercise, which women are not. If a women were a bishop she could exercise that same "right to know" and overrule an elders quorum president for the exact same reason. While I recognize the need for hierarchial authority in the Church I do not see any reason women could not exercise the same confidentiality that men do in the role of a bishop.

[watermelongirl]

Having access to all the relief societies in the world is part of their authority.  If a stake RS has an issue that is relevant to the GRS then she can go directly there, just like if a ward relief society presidency has an issue that is relevant to the stake relief society, she just has to call them up and talk to them about it.

What's your source on that? Do they give the phone number of the GRS presidency to every Stake RS President?

[ERayR]

And that is how it is supposed to work.  Your ward is a great example of what I think should be in practice across ALL wards.  Unfortunately, as in the case that Watermelongirl pointed out, not all wards are following the type of practice that your ward is.  My ward also runs very much like yours.  All I am suggesting is that there is a verbalization in the CHI basically outlining that ALL wards run the way our current wards are running. 

 

IMNSHO the majority of the wards run this way.  There are some micro-managers called as bishops in some areas.  This is sad because such a bishop spends way too much time administering instead of ministering. 

[Sleeper Cell]

I'm a real Mormon woman too and I see a lot of woman bashing in this thread. I also have a desire for there to be gender parity in the church, and I'm hoping that there will be an inspired response to the fact that there is a sense that we *believe* women are equal (or equally valuable), but our policies and practices say that they aren't. I don't know if that means ordination or something else, but the problem is real.

 

I don’t think that generalized accusations of “women bashing” in this thread are fair, let alone useful to further discussion.  Perhaps you might cite a few specific examples.   

 

I have never held a presiding position in the church, other than a couple of months as a counselor in a ward Sunday School presidency (during which I had no assigned duties, whatsoever). What about my “parity” in the church?  Or is “gender parity” more important than “individual parity?”  On the other hand, I suppose I could view “parity” in terms of having equal access to the blessings of salvation and exaltation.

 

You do make a very good point about the need for every women (and man) to realize that women are equally valuable.  But, I am not sure than another “inspired response” to that effect is necessary.  After all, we essentially believe that God, our Heavenly Father, would not be God without our Heavenly Mother.  

 

As far as our polices and practices, it is one thing to change a policy to better further the Plan of Salvation; quite another to do so in order to conform to secular notions of right and wrong.  Still, to the extent that women do feel less valued in the Church, we certainly ought to regularly re-examine our polices and practices to find ways to address the problem -- as long as we don’t compromise fundamental eternal principles.  

 

One possibility is to expand the teaching role of women in the church.  For example, I know of no doctrinal reason why a woman couldn’t be a priesthood instructor or, for that matter, why visiting teachers should be restricted to teaching women.  In fact, as a high priest instructor, I  had no problem getting  official permission to have a sister teach a priesthood lesson to my high priest group.  And when I was in a singles ward, I was able to talk the bishop into asking the RS president to assign visiting teachers to us brethren. True, both were one time deals (and as a young single male, I obviously had a self serving motive for  requesting visiting teachers in a singles ward). But the consensus among the brethren in both instances was that the experience helped us to be better priesthood holders.  Certainly more humble ones.  

 

Perhaps start out with a quarterly priesthood lesson from the relief society.  And why not assign single teen age girls to visit teach single teenage boys?. 

[ERayR]

I think there is a line between "having final say" and completely ignoring the inspiration of the women called to make the calling. It happens. Nobody's perfect and it happens. We can do better.

You seem to assume here that the bishop is ignoring inspiration.

[CA Steve]

Having access to all the relief societies in the world is part of their authority.  If a stake RS has an issue that is relevant to the GRS then she can go directly there, just like if a ward relief society presidency has an issue that is relevant to the stake relief society, she just has to call them up and talk to them about it. She doesn't need to first talk to her bishop, and then talk to the stake presidency and all that hoopla.

 

And the same goes for the stake RS president-she can just call up any RS president in the stake that she needs to speak to, she doesn't have to get anyone else involved unless they need to be involved.

Under what circumstances does the authority of a SRP supersede that of the a bishop in regards to the ward RP?

[ERayR]

Why does the bishop's privileged information trump the privileged information of the RS or Primary President?

Because women are not allowed access to all that information.

 

Confidential information is just that 'confidential'.  It is not available to men or woman in the ward other than the bishop, else it wouldn't be confidential and the bishop would loose his ability to hear confessions and council with those involved.

[bluebell]

It isn't a conspiracy. It's an example of the level of authority and responsibility that men are allowed to exercise, which women are not. If a women were a bishop she could exercise that same "right to know" and overrule an elders quorum president for the exact same reason. While I recognize the need for hierarchial authority in the Church I do not see any reason women could not exercise the same confidentiality that men do in the role of a bishop.

 

It's an example of the priesthood authority which men hold and are allowed to access and the responsibility which comes with that (under direction of other leaders), which women don't have.

 

That is all it's an example of.  Unless one is arguing for the ordination of women (which I don't believe watermelongirl is arguing for unless i am misunderstanding her), that reality will remain.

[watermelongirl]

You seem to assume here that the bishop is ignoring inspiration.

I do believe that to be the case in several recent instances in our ward. Having first-hand witnessed the sisters' (multiple) anguish after the incidents. Does not mean it happens that way every time.