Scriptures And "open Vision" - What Does This Say About The Church?

[cinepro]

Last Sunday in Gospel Doctrine, we were studying the story of Eli and Samuel in the book of 1 Samuel.  Interestingly, but not surprisingly, I think we may have skipped over one of the most interesting scriptures in that portion of the lesson, and I've been thinking about what it means for the last few days.

 

In 1 Samuel 3, we read:

 

1 And the child Samuel ministered unto the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was precious in those days; there was no open ^avision.

 

That observation that "the word of the Lord" (i.e. the scriptures) was "precious" in those days, because "there was no open vision".

 

The footnote to "vision" references the First Vision, and the Topical Guide for "Revelation" and "Visions", among other things.

 

So what this verse seems to say is that the people became more and more focused on the scriptures as their access to "open vision" decreased.  Is this a unique situation in 1 Samuel, or could this actually be a trend that manifests itself anywhere where people one had "open vision", but lose it and must then focus on the scriptures.

 

And if it is a universal principle, would it be possible to study whether or not any such trends manifest themselves in the LDS Church over the last 184 years?  Do we see an increased focus on the scriptures over time, and an decreased focus on "open vision"?

[ksfisher]

When you say "open vision" are you equating that with revelation or actual visions such as The First Vision?

[cinepro]

When you say "open vision" are you equating that with revelation or actual visions such as The First Vision?

 

That's a good question.  What does it mean?

[ksfisher]

The Orthodox Jewish Bible renders the translation as "...there was no chazon nifratz" which they translate as "prophetic vision." 

[danielwoods]

What is a vision (according to the LDS?)
 
I've had this question for a while, but if this isn't the right thread for the question then ignore it. 
 
In 1 Nephi 8:2 it says, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision."

 

Is a vision a dream? A dream a vision? 

[CV75]

Do we see an increased focus on the scriptures over time, and an decreased focus on "open vision"?

I think the verse means that the revelation was rare in those days (period) and that "concurrently" there was no open vision, or, "much less" there was any open vision. Not necessarily a cause-and-effect statement.

 

"Open vision" to me conveys a revelation of the variety that Moses and Enoch received in the Pearl of Great Price, and also conveys (to me) that there is a prophet for the people of God to recognize, sustain, listen to and follow, and that the revelations are ongoing.

 

I think once scriptures are received, such as we have in the Church canon in the latter-days, they serve as a springboard for further pronouncements from the prophet to edify the saints. As we read and receive the scriptures, our ear is more in tune with the revelations given through the living prophets, and of course they read them regularly and prepare their minds to receive revelation for the Church.

 

I think the latter-day vision is very open: twice a year at General Conference, monthly through Church publications, etc. and that our reliance on the scriptures and the Gift of the Holy Ghost contribute to that openness.

[CV75]

What is a vision (according to the LDS?)

 

I've had this question for a while, but if this isn't the right thread for the question then ignore it. 

 

In 1 Nephi 8:2 it says, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision."

 

Is a vision a dream? A dream a vision? 

I think it is a dream, some other altered state or spiritually-inspired mental or conceptual image, or simply a lofty goal (the immortality and eternal life of man, and the description of the means to that attainment).

 

In the verse shared in the OP, I would say it means a personal visit with God where Deity and ideas were visually represented or actualized.

Edited June 18, 2014 by CV75

[strappinglad]

In early church history there were plenty of stories about people having visions. Brigham had a vision of the SLC temple, WW had a vision about the future of the church . Some had visions that were apparently from the wrong source. We are told that in the last days " your young men will dream dreams " etc.

As an aside, when was the last time a prophet of the church used the " seer " portion of his calling? Joseph Smith? I refer to the use of the Urim and Thummim or a seer stone.

Edited June 18, 2014 by strappinglad

[halconero]

Last Sunday in Gospel Doctrine, we were studying the story of Eli and Samuel in the book of 1 Samuel.  Interestingly, but not surprisingly, I think we may have skipped over one of the most interesting scriptures in that portion of the lesson, and I've been thinking about what it means for the last few days.

 

In 1 Samuel 3, we read:

 

 

 

 

That observation that "the word of the Lord" (i.e. the scriptures) was "precious" in those days, because "there was no open vision".

 

The footnote to "vision" references the First Vision, and the Topical Guide for "Revelation" and "Visions", among other things.

 

So what this verse seems to say is that the people became more and more focused on the scriptures as their access to "open vision" decreased.  Is this a unique situation in 1 Samuel, or could this actually be a trend that manifests itself anywhere where people one had "open vision", but lose it and must then focus on the scriptures.

 

And if it is a universal principle, would it be possible to study whether or not any such trends manifest themselves in the LDS Church over the last 184 years?  Do we see an increased focus on the scriptures over time, and an decreased focus on "open vision"?

 

Precious in 1611 meant rare. Furthermore, in the pre-Babylonian era scriptures weren't prevalent. In other words, this verse is saying that "in those days revelation from God was rare. There wasn't any revelation."

[The Nehor]

Like have seen no real decrease in revelations or visions in my lifetime. It has been my experience that most of them are personal. If you feel left out ask God for more.

[JLHPROF]

 

And if it is a universal principle, would it be possible to study whether or not any such trends manifest themselves in the LDS Church over the last 184 years?  Do we see an increased focus on the scriptures over time, and an decreased focus on "open vision"?

 

I don't think there can be any question about that.  We haven't added an actual written revelation to the D&C (with the exception of OD-2) in over a century.  President Grant famously declared that the heavens were as brass to him.  Each of the first 6 presidents of the Church recorded having personal visions or visitations of the Savior or similar authoritative visits.  None of the 10 since have every reported such things (except in very subtle hints that could be interpreted in various ways).

 

I do believe there are still visitations, revelations and visions that occur in the Church and to its members.  But it should also be clear that there are fewer open visions and that we are focusing on the revelations we've already received.

I do think God expects us to do more with the items he's already given us before we get more.  But there has been a change to more scripture and less revelation, at least on the official records.

[rameumptom]

In Samuel's day, there were no "scriptures" as we now think of them.  They primarily had oral tradition.  The "scriptures" originally were not redacted until the time of the Diaspora or shortly thereafter (possibly by Ezra).

 

What I think it means is they were used to the revelations of Moses and Aaron's sons through the Urim and Thummim. However, since Eli's sons were wicked, revelation ceased thru the U&T.  Chances are they replaced "open vision" with casting lots as their method of revelation, as that was a common tactic to determine things in that day.  We see Saul chosen as king by casting lots, for example (while Samuel already received the open revelation, the people would be focused on their tradition of revelation by lot).

[Duncan]

I don't think there can be any question about that.  We haven't added an actual written revelation to the D&C (with the exception of OD-2) in over a century.  President Grant famously declared that the heavens were as brass to him.  Each of the first 6 presidents of the Church recorded having personal visions or visitations of the Savior or similar authoritative visits.  None of the 10 since have every reported such things (except in very subtle hints that could be interpreted in various ways).

 

I do believe there are still visitations, revelations and visions that occur in the Church and to its members.  But it should also be clear that there are fewer open visions and that we are focusing on the revelations we've already received.

I do think God expects us to do more with the items he's already given us before we get more.  But there has been a change to more scripture and less revelation, at least on the official records.

 

 

What!! are you serious?! I'll share just one that  I read yestarday!

 

"As I come to you at the closing moments of this conference, I would like to take you back now to just one incident, and I am sorry that I can tell you only a part of it because of the limitations of some things contained therein.

"It was just before the dedication of the Los Angeles Temple. We were all preparing for that great occasion. It was something new in my life, when along about three or four o’clock in the morning, I enjoyed an experience that I think was not a dream, but it must have been a vision. It seemed that I was witnessing a great spiritual gathering, where men and women were standing up, two or three at a time, and speaking in tongues. The spirit was so unusual. I seemed to have heard the voice of President David O. McKay say, “If you want to love God, you have to learn to love and serve the people. That is the way you show your love for God.” And there were other things then that I saw and heard."

President Harold B. Lee, Stand ye in Holy Places, April 1973 GC

Edited June 20, 2014 by Duncan

[ksfisher]

"The reception of spiritual experiences doesn’t entail that they are all scripture. The argument is common that because the prophet is not receiving revelations like Joseph Smith that are written in scripture, therefore prophecy and revelation have ceased in the Church. However, it must be disconcerting for a church that says that what guarantees the truthfulness of our church is continuing revelation, and we know we have the right interpretation of scripture because we have an ongoing revelation that interprets the scriptures for us. With all due respect I don’t see a “thus saith the Lord” in the [unintelligible] in a long time. Does that mean that the Church has ceased to receive revelation and is therefore no longer true? I suggest looking at it from a different perspective. The goal has always been a “nation of prophets” who themselves are governed by personal revelation. Each person, each Sunday School teacher, each Relief Society president, and (in my case) every Nursery leader, must receive revelation for their stewardship and the accountability for receiving revelation; and it shifts the accountability to each member so that we can’t avoid our responsibility by relying on the prophet to have revelations for us. In fact, I suggest that there is more revelation in the Church now than in the time of Joseph Smith, not less. The goal has always been a “nation of prophets.”

- Blake Ostler

 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2007-fair-conference/2007-spiritual-experiences-as-the-basis-for-belief-and-commitment

 

 

This is a transcript of a FAIR presentation.  That's why the quote reads "[unintelligible]" above.

[Avatar4321]

I would add that President McKay had a vision too.

[JLHPROF]

What!! are you serious?! I'll share just one that  I read yestarday!

 

"As I come to you at the closing moments of this conference, I would like to take you back now to just one incident, and I am sorry that I can tell you only a part of it because of the limitations of some things contained therein.

"It was just before the dedication of the Los Angeles Temple. We were all preparing for that great occasion. It was something new in my life, when along about three or four o’clock in the morning, I enjoyed an experience that I think was not a dream, but it must have been a vision. It seemed that I was witnessing a great spiritual gathering, where men and women were standing up, two or three at a time, and speaking in tongues. The spirit was so unusual. I seemed to have heard the voice of President David O. McKay say, “If you want to love God, you have to learn to love and serve the people. That is the way you show your love for God.” And there were other things then that I saw and heard."

President Harold B. Lee, Stand ye in Holy Places, April 1973 GC

 

I love this.  But I think it's important to differentiate between a spiritual experience/dream/vision and a direct communication from God.

I'm not sure where I'd place this.  It makes perfect sense that Pres. Lee would receive a heavenly communication from one of his priesthood heads in Pres. McKay as messenger.

 

My statement was more referring to direct revelation from God or visitation from his messengers.  Assuming continuation after the first 6 presidents they certainly haven't recorded a written revelation or a visitation from the Savior or an angel.  A few (like BRM) allude to it, which is perhaps what HBL is doing here, but we are left to guess whereas with the 19th century prophets we were actually told.

[Zakuska]

I most likely have shared this before but I will do it again... a bit of personal revelation for myself.  As a child I used to get the De-ja-vu sensation quite often. I would have a dream and then a few days later that dream would actually appear before my eyes in real life ergo. the De-Ja-Vu.

 

One particular dream I had when I was pretty little, was about flying through the sky with Angels.  The vision appeared like an FPS video game in 3rd person view where you are standing behind your character rather than looking through their eyes.  Only the character was the Angel and I was following behind seeing what he was showing me. So after flying up into the clouds for quite a while. We gently came back down to the earth in a  land far across the ocean. We came into a city just above a beach and we were floating down this street. The Angel pointed with a hand gesture so I looked and I saw a butcher shop with a bunch of skinned animals hanging in the window with their heads still attached (I knew we weren't in Kansas anymore) Then he gestured to the other side of the road toward some other little grocery shops. Then he turned and we flew down this street lined with 8-10 story buildings. and out to this Green hill at the end of the street.  On the other side of the hill was a shanty town and at the base of the hill back toward the builds was a little pen with goats and pigs in it and a trail that lead around the hill to the North side and entered the shanty town. We flew over the hill and entered the house of a African family that lived there, and then I woke up.  I thought this was all just a weird dream I had as a little kid, but 3 days after I started my mission in my first area with my trainer, This vision actually came true and appeared before my eyes. Minus the Angel of course. (but he was still with me in the spirit).

 

My companion and I were on our way to an appointment and we had to stop and pick up some groceries because we were helping out the Bishop take care of a needy family in the Ward and we were teaching a couple of the children the lessons.  So we turned down this one street and low and behold there was the row of 8-10 story buildings, I turned and saw the butcher shop with all the Animals inside (first non-US-Utah butcher shop I had ever seen). Then we went to the other side of the street and picked up some groceries and we walked down the street, past the goat pen up around the hill into the shanty town and members house, where I taught my first discussion ever on my mission.

 

Only God through his holy Angels and a living Prophet could have pulled that off and confirmed to me that he does indeed live and answers prayers.  This isn't revelation for the whole church but it is a confirmation of the scriptures to me that "in the last days I shall pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your young men shall dream dreams, etc. etc. etc."

Edited June 20, 2014 by Zakuska

[Duncan]

I love this.  But I think it's important to differentiate between a spiritual experience/dream/vision and a direct communication from God.

I'm not sure where I'd place this.  It makes perfect sense that Pres. Lee would receive a heavenly communication from one of his priesthood heads in Pres. McKay as messenger.

 

My statement was more referring to direct revelation from God or visitation from his messengers.  Assuming continuation after the first 6 presidents they certainly haven't recorded a written revelation or a visitation from the Savior or an angel.  A few (like BRM) allude to it, which is perhaps what HBL is doing here, but we are left to guess whereas with the 19th century prophets we were actually told.

 

In our day and age Christ appears and sometimes angels relaying messages, not God the Father and there are lots of example of Prophets and Apostles having visions and manifestations-another example is Elder David B. Haight's April 1989 General Conference address

[BCSpace]

(24-12) 1 Samuel 3:1. “The Word of the Lord Was Precious in Those Days”

The word precious as used here means “scarce.” The word of God was seldom heard in all the land. Elder Harold B. Lee explained why as follows: “The story commences with a significant statement.

“‘And the child Samuel ministered unto the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was precious in those days; there was no open vision.’ (I Samuel 3:1) … That means that there was no prophet upon the earth through whom the Lord could reveal his will, either by personal experience, or by revelation. And it came to pass that Eli was laid down in his place and his eyes were dim, and Samuel the boy also lay down to his sleep, and you remember through that night there came a call, ‘Samuel,’ and thinking that Eli had called him he went to Eli’s room to be told that Eli had not called him. And he lay down the second time again to be called, and yet the third time. And by this time Eli, sensing the fact that he was being spoken to by an unseen speaker, said, ‘The next time that you hear, then you shall answer, “Here I am Lord, speak to me.”’ And so the next time when the call came, Samuel answered as he had been directed. Now it says, ‘Samuel (up to this time) did not yet know the Lord, neither was the word of the Lord revealed unto him.’ And after he had recognized the Lord and said, ‘Thy servant heareth,’ then he was told that the Lord was to proceed to ‘do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of everyone that heareth it, shall tingle.’ And then he explained the reason why Eli could not receive further messages from the Lord. ‘His sons make themselves vile, and he restrained them not,’ or in other words he allowed his sons to curse God and therefore were leading the people of Israel astray.” (“But Arise and Stand upon Thy Feet”—and I Will Speak with Thee, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year, Provo, 7 Feb. 1956, p. 2.)

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/1-samuel-1-15-the-prophet-samuel-and-saul-king-of-israel?lang=eng

 

 

[Tiki]

Last Sunday in Gospel Doctrine, we were studying the story of Eli and Samuel in the book of 1 Samuel.  Interestingly, but not surprisingly, I think we may have skipped over one of the most interesting scriptures in that portion of the lesson, and I've been thinking about what it means for the last few days.

 

In 1 Samuel 3, we read:

 

 

That observation that "the word of the Lord" (i.e. the scriptures) was "precious" in those days, because "there was no open vision".

 

The footnote to "vision" references the First Vision, and the Topical Guide for "Revelation" and "Visions", among other things.

 

So what this verse seems to say is that the people became more and more focused on the scriptures as their access to "open vision" decreased.  Is this a unique situation in 1 Samuel, or could this actually be a trend that manifests itself anywhere where people one had "open vision", but lose it and must then focus on the scriptures.

 

And if it is a universal principle, would it be possible to study whether or not any such trends manifest themselves in the LDS Church over the last 184 years?  Do we see an increased focus on the scriptures over time, and an decreased focus on "open vision"?

I think it just refers to the idea that people weren't spiritually in tune because they were not giving heed to the commandments. As you know, there are many who have the scriptures and the words of our leaders today but don't believe them so they are not give further inspiration for their lives and wander in darkness. D&C 95:12.