Ny Times Article: Kate Kelly And John Dehlin Threatened With Excommunication

[sjdawg]

Your "truth" is not the "truth"....  It's a perversion of the truth, the devils counterfeit.  Having been anti-mormon, I actually know this for a fact.

so your truth is "fact" and his truth is "the devils counterfeit".   Seems reasonable.

Edited June 12, 2014 by sjdawg

[Teancum]

If all disciplinary councils are unchristlike, then Christ Himself is unchristlike.

Did Jesus excommunicate anyone while he fulfilled his mortal ministry? CFR please.

Excommunication is a man made device to keep members of a religion in line and to punish those who sin to what the religion deems excessive. Interestingly I don't know of a current religion that still uses this device to the extent of the LDS Church.

[Teancum]

Please explain. It would appear that you have no experience with disciplinary councils, or at least don't understand their purpose.

I used to be a bishop and I have served on two high councils. I have participated in numerous DCs and ran a couple myself. I understand their purpose. I disagree with the approach. I find the justifications for using them such as the offending member is better off due to covenant and all that. Using them for members who have committed "grievous" sins I believe diminishes the atonement of Christ. And for such purposes they are used capriciously. For someone like Kate Kelly I understand that the church is using to to keep her in her place so to speak and likely the leaders think they need to protect the members. I get that though think there are other ways to accomplish the same ends.

What other church's do this regularly to its members these days.

[Teancum]

who said?

Read D&C 132.

[Teancum]

Well, he may not be her "former" bishop. It may be possible for a bishop to put a hold on the transfer of church records. If so, then he may have retained jurisdiction over Kate Kelly.

This raises an interesting procedural question, doesn't it?

Regarding accusing her bishop of being "cowardly" and "unchristlike," I find such accustions spectacularly inappropriate. We don't know him. We don't have the full story. And it is not within our province to render such judgments.

Thanks,

-Smac

You don't know Kate Kelly and you are judging based on info you have, I did the same for her bishop. I initiating a DC after she moved seems cowardly to me. Send it to her new leaders and let them take care of it.

[Teancum]

John D. Lee was exed and he had his 2nd anointing.  Granted it was reinstated several decades after his execution ....

Ok perhaps a I am wrong. maybe you can kick em out still but they still get exaltation.

[Teancum]

That's been my experience, too.

 

Incidentally, for what little it's worth, I've posted an item on my blog about the Kate Kelly/John Dehlin matter:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2014/06/the-pending-cases-of-john-dehlin-and-kate-kelly.html

I have sat in on at least a dozen DCs and even ran a few. Sure everyone is nice and caring and concerned. I did not say they were not. But IMO there are almost always better ways to deal with these things. And they are administered capriciously. If there are say inactive members living together in a ward they rarely are called in for a DC. But an active members messes up and they are, and usually when they have confesses. I believe the ideal that Jesus pays for our sins and that we become white as snow. I don't think we ned and extra level or does of punishment and public humiliation. Personal repentance is enough.

[eddie]

Ok perhaps a I am wrong. maybe you can kick em out still but they still get exaltation.

Not true, King David had his exaltation made sure, but then fell from grace due to the sins he committed.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

[Calm]

It's funny you should say that.  I recall the last time I posted here on this subject last year you rebuked me for criticizing the "wonderful faithful LDS women" who were leading the OW movement.  When I warned that they were on a path that led to apostasy, you claimed what I said was "shameful."

CFR

I remember the conversation quite differently.

[eddie]

I don't know if anybody else has noted this, but the incidents involving Bro. Dehlin and Sis. Kelly are publicity "stunts" for want of a better phrase on their parts. The Church's disciplinary procedures are highly confidential and the only way third parties would know about them is if the person to be disciplined decides to go public.

A few pages back, I posted what Kelly put on her website, where she acknowledged going to the press. Somehow she thought Michael Otterson had the authority to intervene. (Maybe she thinks he knows her true intent.)

http://ordainwomen.org/ordain-women-sisters-in-silence-vigil-faq/

Why did Kate/Ordain Women decide to take this story to the media?

We are not being heard in other ways. Our requests for meetings have been consistently ignored. Michael Otterson, head of Public Affairs for the LDS Church, refused to intervene to prevent the court from going forward.

[Calm]

I don't know if anybody else has noted this, but the incidents involving Bro. Dehlin and Sis. Kelly are publicity "stunts" for want of a better phrase on their parts.   The Church's disciplinary procedures are highly confidential and the only way third parties would know about them is if the person to be disciplined decides to go public.

They have for the most part turned a major part of their involvement in the community of Saints into an ongoing media event, what would be shocking is if they had chosen to leave the media out of it this time around.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Ok perhaps a I am wrong. maybe you can kick em out still but they still get exaltation.

I think John D. Lee was a special case given he participated in mass murder of innocent women men and children (shedding innocent blood).

[rockpond]

I disagree. Excommunication is designed to be a positive outcome for the Church. 3 Nephi 18:31 for example.

I don't see it going that way in this case.

[Teancum]

Not true, King David had his exaltation made sure, but then fell from grace due to the sins he committed.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

 

Murder will negate the calling and election. Nothing else. According to D&C 132 if you get it and sin but don't shed innocent blood then you are turned over to the buffetings of Satan but you will still be exalted in the end.  Least that is how I understand it.  No big deal to me either way and not on topic to the thread so I will pass further remarks on the it.

[Calm]

You don't know Kate Kelly and you are judging based on info you have, I did the same for her bishop. I initiating a DC after she moved seems cowardly to me. Send it to her new leaders and let them take care of it.

Who will her new leaders be in Kenya? How familiar will they be with her history? Is OW known much outside the US? Will she be living in one are along enough for her leaders to get to know her or will they be traveling around as much?

Maybe the bishop was not given an accurate date for her leaving or assumed she'd go straight to Kenya so misjudged it, but does not want to drop the mess into the laps of her new leaders...perhaps in hopes that she will leave any possible resentment behind on his shoulders and not project it on to her next leader so healing will be more effective if everyone focuses on it.

[rockpond]

That's not for you to say.

Excommunication can indeed be a positive outcome for all concerned, if it is done right. It can be positive for the former member, in that it starts her on the road to repentance. If indeed Ms Kelly is in a state of apostasy (and there is certainly prima facie evidence that she is) then her membership covenants are not a blessing to her life at present.

It is also a positive outcome for those who remain in the Church, because it makes clear what the Church's position is, and where the boundary is that demarcs what be taught to Church members as doctrine.

It is not given unto you, or me, or anyone on this forum to decide what should or should not be done in Ms Kelly's case. We may have opinions on the matter, but they carry no weight. We are not those who bear that responsibility.

But in general terms, I have always understood -- as a matter of uncontroversial, main-stream, orthodox LDS doctrine -- that anyone who presumes to correct those who stand at the head on a matter of doctrine are not merely on the road to apostasy; they've arrived, settled in, and put down roots there.

Regards,

Pahoran

I'm not correcting the Brethren on a matter of doctrine. There may well be just cause to excommunicate Sister Kelly. I don't know. But I believe that her excommunication along with the purge of Dehlin and Waterman as a seemingly coordinated event is not going to produce a net positive outcome.

[Storm Rider]

I'm not correcting the Brethren on a matter of doctrine. There may well be just cause to excommunicate Sister Kelly. I don't know. But I believe that her excommunication along with the purge of Dehlin and Waterman as a seemingly coordinated event is not going to produce a net positive outcome.

 

a purge?  Hmm, seems like an extreme amount of patience was extended to both of these individuals and they continued in their efforts.  Neither of them are stupid and it is almost impossible to think they are ignorant.  They knew what they were doing and they will reap the fruits of their work. It is sad, but whatever the outcome it will be just. 

[Calm]

Personal repentance is enough.

true repentance involves a desire to restore to others what you have taken from them in your sin,whether it is something physical or less tangible such as the ability to trust others when once betrayed by someone in authority over you in some fashion or just someone you looked up to who presented themselves as a role model. How can you repair the harm if the whole process of repentance is purely personal? Public acts of sin that have harmed others need to demonstrate public sorrow and a desire to restore if one wants to help the one done wrong embrace the healing process.

It is also good IMO to have a significant process of healing if it is to occur among those one has most harmed, likely members of your local faith community where possible. I see the creation of the OW discussion as not just the last straw, but likely the most extreme effort ofkelly's organization. From the introduction where it describes how to make contacts within one's ward, etc. they are setting up their own missionary program to proselyte among the faithful for theological change. Actively seeking out members to proselyte in an organised detail fashion, where conversation is directed towards a type of conversion is something significant different than gathering and agitating with like minded souls.

And if the discussions are what triggered the bishop's actions (Kelly had announced at the time of the first protest march there would only be one more so if the bishop was iffy about if it had compleltely crossed the line or not he might have adopted a wait and see what is next)...unfortunately the OW discussions haven't even finished coming out before Kelly moves so if he had made the decision to wait to see what her reaction would be from the Church leaders firmly telling her it wouldn't work and would be divisive in hopes that would be enough to cause her to seriously reconsider the path she is on, it has set things up in a difficult choice. I suspect he feels responsible not to simply pass on the burden to someone not familiar with the public impact or desires to throw her new ward into the turmoil of the public media blitz this might trigger.

[Tacenda]

The Old Testament does have a male/female dichotomy. While we dove have women displaying prophetic, advisory, and even (military) leadership ability we do not see any performing sacred rites or functioning in any capacity in temple worship or Levitical ceremonies.

I thought the temple is the only time they can perform sacred rites. With blessing and annointings.

[bluebell]

It's funny you should say that. I recall the last time I posted here on this subject last year you rebuked me for criticizing the "wonderful faithful LDS women" who were leading the OW movement. When I warned that they were on a path that led to apostasy, you claimed what I said was "shameful."

Juliann has always, and often, been critical of Kate Kelly and OW.

[ERayR]

I'm not correcting the Brethren on a matter of doctrine. There may well be just cause to excommunicate Sister Kelly. I don't know. But I believe that her excommunication along with the purge of Dehlin and Waterman as a seemingly coordinated event is not going to produce a net positive outcome.

 

Why describe Dehlin and Waterman's disciplinary councils as a purge? 

[Calm]

I thought the temple is the only time they can perform sacred rites. With blessing and annointings.

he is saying in ancient times those involved in temple rites were always Levite males, and even narrower for some had to be of a particular line of Aaron iirc.

[ERayR]

The fact that her FORMER bishop initiated a DC AFTER she moved and thus makes it difficult to participate is at least cowardly,

IMO alll DCs are unchrislike.

 

Kind of like a whip made of rope and driving some from the temple.

[Duncan]

Why describe Dehlin and Waterman's disciplinary councils as a purge? 

 

 

exactley, 3 people in a gigantic Church is hardly a purge!

[ERayR]

I didn't realize I was looking for any particular role.  

 

I have no dog in this particular debate.

 

Then why kick some of the dogs?