Ny Times Article: Kate Kelly And John Dehlin Threatened With Excommunication

[juliann]

It's funny you should say that.  I recall the last time I posted here on this subject last year you rebuked me for criticizing the "wonderful faithful LDS women" who were leading the OW movement.  When I warned that they were on a path that led to apostasy, you claimed what I said was "shameful."

CFR ! 

 

I have never supported the leaders of OW, that should be clear from this thread alone. But I am more frustrated with what KK has done/not done than I am condemning of her.  I have never supported OW.  I do have great concern for the women who share some of the concerns they raise.  There most certainly are faithful women who want more inclusion in the church.

 

And it is not funny that you should be held to the standards you set for others and it is definitely not funny that you throw out false accusations to avoid being held to your own standards.

Edited June 12, 2014 by juliann

[eddie]

There aren't any. In fact the only recorded "mass exodus" (if you can even call it that) from the Church was when polygamy was announced in England in the 1850s. Nothing else has ever caused more than a tiny blip.

The failure of the bank in Kirtland led to a negative growth rate and led to a large withdrawal of membership.

[Tacenda]

I hope you are wrong.  I think there are a few ways this could go.  I remember a few councils over the past few years that have been cancelled or where excommunication was not the end result.  Perhaps it will be the same here.

 

And, although I sympathetic with Kate Kelly, I have disagreed with her chosen tactics.  

 

This hasn't really been touched on in this thread but what really surprises me here is John Dehlin.  He's been doing his thing for years and years now so I'm a bit perplexed as to why this is happening now.  Perhaps there has been some activity I'm simply unaware of.

I have a guess, I thought the same thing you did.  First, seeing him with Kate Kelly in the Gay Pride parade front and center.  And second and this is the biggest by far, his interview with Sandra Tanner.  I think that was the stab in the back the church felt the hardest. 

[mormonnewb]

It's not really a prediction.  More an observation of the obvious.  This was always going to be the conclusion.  I have never heard of a disiplinary council that reversed the expected end result unless the person immediately repented and changed.  They won't so the outcome is not a prediction, but an unavoidable result.

 

 

There aren't any.  In fact the only recorded "mass exodus" (if you can even call it that) from the Church was when polygamy was announced in England in the 1850s.  Nothing else has ever caused more than a tiny blip.

 

The only wildcard at play now is the Internet.  Before now, members didn't have the ability to join together with other like-minded saints.  As a result, very few saints would be willing to resign if they thought that their resignation would not even raise an eyebrow with the powers that be.  However, a mass resignation of THOUSANDS of members would likely raise at least an eyelash in high places.

 

That being said, I doubt very seriously that there will be such a mass resignation.  I certainly hope not.  I'd hate for my progressive brothers and sisters to leave this fine church to the likes of some of you. (Tongue firmly in cheek)

 

But I wouldn't rule out some other form of coordinated action on the part of the "unrighteous."

Edited June 12, 2014 by mormonnewb

[bluebell]

I believe, from what I've read on her blog, that she is an active member in her ward in New Zealand.  I'll admit to reading her blog regularly, but I also will admit to rubbernecking at traffic accidents.  There's much similarity between the two.

 

Not having ever heard of her, i just wanted to understand better where she was coming from.

 

Regardless though, i can't understand that blog.  

[mnn727]

There was a time when I had this same clear cut black & white view.

You can have it again.

[sethpayne]

I have a guess, I thought the same thing you did.  First, seeing him with Kate Kelly in the Gay Pride parade front and center.  And second and this is the biggest by far, his interview with Sandra Tanner.  I think that was the stab in the back the church felt the hardest. 

 

Interesting.  I haven't listed to MS for a long long time so I haven't heard the Tanner interview.

 

In your view, what about the interview made it a "stab in the back?"

[rpn]

If the SP put her on informal probation AFTER she moved permanently (how is he even allowed to do that, when jurisdiction is up to the bishop?); and her bishop didn't call a DC until AFTER that, how do they even have jurisdiction over her.  True they can just not forward the records on (and in this case as she is moving to Kenya, with a stop in Utah enroute), but how does that maintain their jurisdiction when members are assigned to the congregation in which they actually live?    I've never read in the handbook that they have authority to refuse to forward records to conduct DC.

 

And are we not going to talk about how ironic it is that men are subjected to High Council DC and women (apparently even those who are endowed) remain within the bishop's jurisdiction?   This means that women do not have the protection of a larger group who are designated to present their position and presumably has greater chance that some might not feel intimidated and just follow the leader even if they don't think it right to do so --- not saying this is the DC intent, just acknowledging the reality for those subject to the proceedings?   Of course it also means that the information is not as widely disseminated since there are only five people there  instead of 14 in a SP DC.

[halconero]

I thought the temple is the only time they can perform sacred rites. With blessing and annointings.

I'm talking of the Old Testament temple, different ball game.

[Buzzard]

So Sister Kelly is going to Kenya? This could be interesting. If she ends up in a stake, who knows what will happen. But if her membership ends up in a branch/district, with a branch president, it's my perhaps incorrect understanding that discipline and followup is handled by the MP. I know the MP in Kenya, he was my old SP in Southern California. Behind his desk was a quote from Elder Packer: "Obedience is powerful spiritual medicine. It comes close to being a cure-all". And he lived by that dictum. A humble, very Christlike person, but also a retired police chief. And he did have a "command voice" when required. Sister Kelly might find herself on the receiving end of loving but straightforward counsel.

[Duncan]

So Sister Kelly is going to Kenya? This could be interesting. If she ends up in a stake, who knows what will happen. But if her membership ends up in a branch/district, with a branch president, it's my perhaps incorrect understanding that discipline and followup is handled by the MP. I know the MP in Kenya, he was my old SP in Southern California. Behind his desk was a quote from Elder Packer: "Obedience is powerful spiritual medicine. It comes close to being a cure-all". And he lived by that dictum. A humble, very Christlike person, but also a retired police chief. And he did have a "command voice" when required. Sister Kelly might find herself on the receiving end of loving but straightforward counsel.

 

 

hmmmmm, that person sounds familiar to me, what stake did you live in with this Stake President? I served my mission in So Cal

[wenglund]

The failure of the bank in Kirtland led to a negative growth rate and led to a large withdrawal of membership 

 

It may have had a short-term negative impact, but not long-term. Obviously.

 

Since trials of faith can either make people weaker or strong, then how we choose to deal with the trials tells us more about ourselves than about the trial, itself, or the Church as a whole. 

 

By this I mean that if members leave the faith because Church leaders have prayerfully determined to convene disciplinary councils for publicly dissident individuals, this tells us more about the members and their faith than it does the Church.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[bluebell]

If the SP put her on informal probation AFTER she moved permanently (how is he even allowed to do that, when jurisdiction is up to the bishop?); and her bishop didn't call a DC until AFTER that, how do they even have jurisdiction over her.  True they can just not forward the records on (and in this case as she is moving to Kenya, with a stop in Utah enroute), but how does that maintain their jurisdiction when members are assigned to the congregation in which they actually live?    I've never read in the handbook that they have authority to refuse to forward records to conduct DC.

 

And are we not going to talk about how ironic it is that men are subjected to High Council DC and women (apparently even those who are endowed) remain within the bishop's jurisdiction?   This means that women do not have the protection of a larger group who are designated to present their position and presumably has greater chance that some might not feel intimidated and just follow the leader even if they don't think it right to do so --- not saying this is the DC intent, just acknowledging the reality for those subject to the proceedings?   Of course it also means that the information is not as widely disseminated since there are only five people there  instead of 14 in a SP DC.

 

Someone posted a link here a few pages back where it explains exactly why they have completely authority to do exactly what they are doing.  It has to do with the idea that sometimes it better and more appropriate for DCs to be handled by people who actually know the person involved and everything that has taken place between them and their leadership up to that point.

[halconero]

You don't see prophets like Isaiah doing that either.

Right, there's even a tribal dichotomy on the priesthood.

[rpn]

BTW, Sister Kelly's bishop's letter is from a Virginia US ward, not from NZ.   So the information about her living in NZ is likely wrong.

[Buzzard]

hmmmmm, that person sounds familiar to me, what stake did you live in with this Stake President? I served my mission in So Cal

Jurupa, just to the west of Riverside. Riverside CA mission, obviously. He was a hoot when he was a bishop and also an undercover narcotics officer. Probably the only bishop in the church with a beard and shoulder length hair. He said once that he was regularly challenged at the door of Bishops seminars held at the LA temple, so he always carpooled with a couple of other bishops who could vouch for him. 

[mnn727]

When has a man ever been called to a Relief Society calling?

In new areas. I have known of a male missionary RS Pres in an area that was just opened.

[Buzzard]

BTW, Sister Kelly's bishop's letter is from a Virginia US ward, not from NZ.   So the information about her living in NZ is likely wrong.

The NZ sister is a sympathizer and blogger. Sister Kelly is, if I understand correctly, in Utah at the moment, but then headed for Kenya. 

[ksfisher]

I've heard her on a few Mormon Matters podcasts and I believe she is active and serving a calling in her ward in New Zealand.  That being said, I'm sure that some would consider her unworthy of the priesthood (or even membership in the Church).

 

On a side note, I find our keen interest in someone's status as an insider/outsider troubling.  I think we use it as a way to easily dismiss those with whom we disagree.  After all, if they aren't a "real Mormon," how could their observations about the Church hold any weight?

 

We don't require that in other contexts.  You don't need to be a politician to comment on political issues or an athlete to comment upon sports.  In fact, the most respected sports commentators are almost exclusively NON-athletes (e.g., Bob Costas, Bryant Gumble, etc.).  No one says to them, "Hey, you're not an ACTIVE football player.  How dare you comment on the use of steroids in the NFL?"  Nor do you need to be a current and active Mormon to have useful insights about the Church.  In fact, an outside perspective can actually add to the discourse as I often witness on this board in comments from, say, our Catholic friends.

 

What's the thing about adding other's truth to our own?

 

Note: I should be clear that I'm not accusing bluebell of using insider/outsider status to dismiss others.  This is more in response to other comments I've seen in this thread and others.

 

Some of my favorite sports broadcasters have never played the game that they broadcast.  However, the best of them have spent years studying the game and speaking with those involved.  A commentator who doesn't understand the sport that they are broadcasting or writing about comes across as very shallow.  They may have an insight or two from time to time, but by and large they contribute nothing except repeating what they have heard others say.

 

In a like manner, those who have not received revelation or felt the Holy Spirit cannot understand the experiences of others who have. 

[smac97]

I am still hoping for a good outcome.  But the Kelly DC is being held in absentia.  And from what I've read, Dehlin & Waterman were told to resign or face excommunication.

I'll be honest, I was surprised and bit disconcerted about this ultimatum. I wonder if this is appropriate.

 

No.  But it's a new day... the internet and social media have changed the landscape.

We'll see, I suppose.

 

I'm just not convinced that this decision is being led by God and I don't see it as adhering to scripture.

I concede that it is possible for local leaders to err in convening a disciplinary council. As regarding Kate Kelly, I think there is room, in the abstract, for principled disagreement about whether a disciplinary council is appropriate. However, we are not privy to the spiritual guidance available to the bishop, so I don't think it's up to us to supplant his judgment with ours. There are procedural safeguards in place, and I think Church disciplinary efforts are generally given close scrutiny.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

Jurupa, just to the west of Riverside. Riverside CA mission, obviously. He was a hoot when he was a bishop and also an undercover narcotics officer. Probably the only bishop in the church with a beard and shoulder length hair. He said once that he was regularly challenged at the door of Bishops seminars held at the LA temple, so he always carpooled with a couple of other bishops who could vouch for him. 

 

hahahahahahaha! I was in the Arcadia Mission. The Arcadia Stake President, Corrigan was a retired Police Chief as well. That mission, I swear to cow every 4th member of the Church was in law enforcement. I always felt safe at Church! It used to bug me to when we would go tracting and people would ask if we were the LAPD or the other various agencies and we were like you must be joking! Are you blind? because we can come in and bless you! we know people who work there and we are like 1/255 their size!!!!!

Edited June 12, 2014 by Duncan

[eddie]

In new areas. I have known of a male missionary RS Pres in an area that was just opened.

Not going to say you are wrong, but in both the D&C and Church manual, it is clear this calling and organization is for women.

[Zakuska]

In new areas. I have known of a male missionary RS Pres in an area that was just opened.

Your talking to one.

 

Of course our goal was to get a woman trained and willing to do the Job ASAP.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Zakuska

[eddie]

It may have had a short-term negative impact, but not long-term. Obviously.

Since trials of faith can either make people weaker or strong, then how we choose to deal with the trials tells us more about ourselves than about the trial, itself, or the Church as a whole.

By this I mean that if members leave the faith because Church leaders have prayerfully determined to convene disciplinary councils for publicly dissident individuals, this tells us more about the members and their faith than it does the Church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree, just noting many members left due to that situation, including some of the Quorum of the 12.

People have talked about the negative impact of membership of September 6, but ironically, the membership of the Church has doubled since that time. Not sure how this had long term effects on growth rates.

[Tacenda]

Interesting.  I haven't listed to MS for a long long time so I haven't heard the Tanner interview.

 

In your view, what about the interview made it a "stab in the back?"

 

 

Killing two birds with one stone, so to speak.  Low on allowed posts since being on "limited" status, which so stinks!!  Hope you don't mind Seth, my answering your question at the same time I give the following FYI. 

 

Saw this on another board....

 

"On Thursday at 12:15 p.m., Ordain Women founder Kate Kelly and "Mormon Stories" creator John Dehlin join Jennifer Napier-Pearce to discuss the Ordain Women movement, LGBT issues and apostasy.

You can join the discussion by sending questions and comments to the hashtag #TribTalk on Twitter and Google+. You can also text comments to 801-609-8059."

{C}http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58056 ... n.html.csp

 

Now to answer your question Seth, the Tanners and their website are/were the enemy.  The fact that John gave her a voice is enough and the fact she let out some doozies about the church.  If he is in cohort with a person like that, he no longer seems to be the struggler but the antagonist.  I'm seeing this through my presuming eyes of course, as to how the church might see it.  I'm not agreeing just putting my feet in their shoes, a little bit.