We Were Born Evil?

[Duncan]

Do you think we were born evil? I know that Mosiah 3:19 says the natural man is an enemy to God and has been since the Fall of Adam but it doesn't say what mankind was like before the fall of Adam and it doesn't say that mankind is evil. Also perplexing is Dc 93:38

 

38 "Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state,innocent before God."

 

I agree with the idea that we have the capacity to become evil and carnal and that and we are fallen but are we so disposed that given the chance to do good or bad we would be inclined to choose evil or continous bad acts, as if there is nothing good in us to chose good things?

[The Nehor]

The flesh usually wants bad stuff due to the fall. The spirit wants good stuff because it came from God and never fell except by melding with a fallen body.

[Storm Rider]

This is speculation and only my thoughts based upon scripture.  I believe that God created this world and sent us to it. When our first parents arrived they were wholly innocent knowing not right from wrong. They were born into a paradise where there was no want, no strife, no need. All was provided for all creatures that were there.

 

Satan entered the world and tempted humanity. As the story goes Adam and Eve were tempted and partook of the the Tree of Knowledge; knowledge that allowed them to distinguish between good and evil.  Once there is knowledge there is choice. In this transgression Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden and forced to choose all things; bearing the consequences of each of their choices. Whether to work or not; whether to be honest or not; whether to follow God or not.  I also think that with humanity learning knowledge, Satan was more fully empowered to twist the thinking of humanity and lead them astray.

 

The carnality of humanity is tied to the all of the passions of the flesh.  Passions run amok is a life that consistently chooses to satisfy the passions without any desire to follow the guidance of the Spirit.  The Spirit teaches us to harness our passions - harness our carnal desires within the bounds that the Lord has set.  Fundamentally, we learn to deny ourselves and submit to the will of the Spirit.  

 

A few things to distinguish; infants have no knowledge and thus are innocent and fully within the grace of Christ without any need for saving ordinances or sacraments. We learn the principle that once truths are learned and understood we are responsible for living those truths.

 

Good questions and thoughts, thank you Duncan.

[Alan]

The flesh usually wants bad stuff due to the fall. The spirit wants good stuff because it came from God and never fell except by melding with a fallen body.

 

i disagree with this. The fall was essentially a spiritual occurance. Flesh just does as it's told. Adam and Eve partook of the fruit because they decided to and not because of some fleshly craving.

 

My personal belief is that we, in the spiritual realm, have all made the same decision Adam and Eve did. That is why we are all fallen.

[Duncan]

Well, before you decide if we were born evil you have to be able to define what "evil" really means to you. But Just answer one question for me.. Who is Adam and how does he carry any relevance with this discussion?

 

 

Adam from Adam and Eve in the Old Testament

 

here's an article talking about him

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/01/the-man-adam?lang=eng

Edited May 17, 2014 by Duncan

[CV75]

Do you think we were born evil? I know that Mosiah 3:19 says the natural man is an enemy to God and has been since the Fall of Adam but it doesn't say what mankind was like before the fall of Adam and it doesn't say that mankind is evil. Also perplexing is Dc 93:38

 

38 "Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state,innocent before God."

 

I agree with the idea that we have the capacity to become evil and carnal and that and we are fallen but are we so disposed that given the chance to do good or bad we would be inclined to choose evil or continous bad acts, as if there is nothing good in us to chose good things?

I think think those who are accountable are inclined to eventually, in some thing or another, make a less righteous choice than Jesus would; to do something below or contrary to the light they have received.

 

All flesh, no matter how non-accountable is "evil" (harmful or unpleasant) in the sense that it dies and otherwise betrays life (for example, an infant cannot take care of himself due to the weakness of his flesh and mind, and would die quickly if left alone).

Edited May 17, 2014 by CV75

[telnetd]

i disagree with this. The fall was essentially a spiritual occurance. Flesh just does as it's told. Adam and Eve partook of the fruit because they decided to and not because of some fleshly craving.

 

My personal belief is that we, in the spiritual realm, have all made the same decision Adam and Eve did. That is why we are all fallen.

 

For Eve, it appealed to her stomach, her eyes, and her desire to

become wise like a god.

 

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes

shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that

it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one

wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto

her husband with her; and he did eat"

 

Even though I would not consider a new-born baby as an evil being, 

he or she has still suffered indirectly by inheriting the fallen nature

by the disobedience of Adam and Eve (i.e. their original sin).

 

Gail

[Palerider]

Before the "Fall" man would have been in a state of innocence before God and there was no inclination towards evil because Man was not in a temporal or corruptible state.

 

After the Fall when man's flesh became corruptible, it had great influence over his spirit, leading him to satisfy the lusts thereof regardless of the consequences. Because children are also bearers of corruptible flesh even they, in their natural state, are controlled by the desires of the flesh. They seek nourishment and comfort regardless of the circumstances. They can be quite demanding. Even at a young age one can see that evil has great potential to fully develop in them over time as they grow.

 

Our spirits on the other hand, though created with a desire to do only good and to seek God are still heavily influenced by the lusts of the flesh. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."  Those lusts of the flesh are with us to one degree or another even from birth. However the accountability for how we respond to those desires is a graduated one, which grows with our maturation.

 

I think as creations of God we are inclined to want to do good as well as evil. But presently we are creatures of a dual nature and are in conflict with ourselves. Galatians 5:17:

" For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

 

Eve was "deceived" and manipulated by the Serpent. One must ask the question, would she ever have partaken of the fruit without his influence?" I think the answer is "no". Adam however was not deceived, but partook probably out of sympathy for Eve.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Palerider

[Storm Rider]

For Eve, it appealed to her stomach, her eyes, and her desire to

become wise like a god.

 

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes

shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that

it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one

wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto

her husband with her; and he did eat"

 

Even though I would not consider a new-born baby as an evil being, 

he or she has still suffered indirectly by inheriting the fallen nature

by the disobedience of Adam and Eve (i.e. their original sin).

 

Gail

 

No, I don't think like that. I believe that Adam and Eve were faced with a choice between knowledge and ignorance. If they remained in the Garden they would have remained ignorant and without choice and without offspring. Eve's choice was more to choose between two commandments of God and fulfill the greater at great personal sacrifice. The Fall was necessary for us to be.  It would require an even greater sacrifice, the most precious blood of the Savior to restore immortality and salvation, but we also gained the right to choose between good and evil, which we did not know or have a choice in the Garden.  

 

As I write that I acknowledge that Lucifer did cause a choice to be made by tempting Adam and Eve. I would guess that their state of innocence did not lend them to deep thought or reflection; their natural inclination was to be in balance with all that surrounded them in the Garden.  There was no concept of "I" and no passions to bridle. It would seem as if their choice had nothing to do with passions per se, carnal desires, but of something that could be taught to them by the serpent.  

 

Interesting conversation and I appreciate reading everyone's comments. It is like splitting hairs, but each hair split leads to a forest of implications. 

[Bikeemikey]

The flesh usually wants bad stuff due to the fall. The spirit wants good stuff because it came from God and never fell except by melding with a fallen body.

I disagree with this idea... I think it is a mid-readjng of natural man to conflate that purely with physical.

Pride is considered the origin or most sin (kimball and a few others have emphasized this). Pride seems more an element of ego, will, intelligence. These do not seem to be originating in the physical body. Satan manifest pride in the pre-earth life. Presumably so did those who followed him.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[The Nehor]

I disagree with this idea... I think it is a mid-readjng of natural man to conflate that purely with physical.

Pride is considered the origin or most sin (kimball and a few others have emphasized this). Pride seems more an element of ego, will, intelligence. These do not seem to be originating in the physical body. Satan manifest pride in the pre-earth life. Presumably so did those who followed him.

 

I agree. I was generalizing. The only way to go to perdition is a spiritual sin. Sins of the flesh are animalistic. Sins of pride are spiritual.

 

As soul-destroying as gluttony or sexual degeneracy are they have nothing on someone consumed by pride.

[Bikeemikey]

I agree. I was generalizing. The only way to go to perdition is a spiritual sin. Sins of the flesh are animalistic. Sins of pride are spiritual.

As soul-destroying as gluttony or sexual degeneracy are they have nothing on someone consumed by pride.

Agreed

[telnetd]

I believe that Adam and Eve were faced with a choice between knowledge and ignorance. If they remained in the Garden they would have remained ignorant and without choice and without offspring. 

 

How do you know God created an ignorant Adam and Eve?  Did they

have any knowledge or intelligence in the Garden?

 

Gail

[JDave]

Do you think we were born evil? I know that Mosiah 3:19 says the natural man is an enemy to God and has been since the Fall of Adam but it doesn't say what mankind was like before the fall of Adam and it doesn't say that mankind is evil. Also perplexing is Dc 93:38

 

38 "Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state,innocent before God."

 

I agree with the idea that we have the capacity to become evil and carnal and that and we are fallen but are we so disposed that given the chance to do good or bad we would be inclined to choose evil or continous bad acts, as if there is nothing good in us to chose good things?

Cross reference with Alma 13:3.  I read it as saying that due to the "preparatory redemption" we are made innocent again.

 

 13:3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

[rpn]

We know that that our spirits were righteous at birth.   There may be lots of natural man stuff while we learn to control and use our bodies in submission to His will.   But the WE that gives life to those bodies were good.   

 

Further, we do not believe in the original sin either, which holds that we are naturally evil.

[Duncan]

We know that that our spirits were righteous at birth.   There may be lots of natural man stuff while we learn to control and use our bodies in submission to His will.   But the WE that gives life to those bodies were good.   

 

Further, we do not believe in the original sin either, which holds that we are naturally evil.

 

 

I think that's what I was getting at but I didn't phrase it right, Calvin's idea of human depravity

[saemo]

We know that that our spirits were righteous at birth.   There may be lots of natural man stuff while we learn to control and use our bodies in submission to His will.   But the WE that gives life to those bodies were good.   

 

Further, we do not believe in the original sin either, which holds that we are naturally evil.

Hi, original sin does not hold that our nature is evil. Opposite. We are naturally good, natural law being written in the hearts of all, which is of God, and therefore good. The yearning of our souls towards good is because we are naturally good. 

 

Original sin is not something we have, it is the absence of original grace, i.e., removed from the immediate presence of God. The Good News of Jesus Christ is, we are restored to original grace. The calling of all Christians is to act in the way in which we believe. Walk in the light.

 

The fall brings out an exaggerated propensity towards sin, that manifests as an absence of good in action, orientation, conscience, etc. It is not an indicator of a naturally evil nature. The absence of good is countered by forsaking sin; cultivating virtues rather than vices.

Edited May 20, 2014 by saemo

[3DOP]

Catholics use a common expression to illustrate the balance of goodness which remains after the Fall in "unaided human nature" (without God's grace).

 

We say that "Grace builds on nature". This means we think there is still inherent goodness in fallen man. That is why we talk about virtues that one can obtain apart from grace, the cardinal virtues: prudence, temperance, fortitude, and justice. Everyone has some of these. Example: A "successful thief" must have prudence to be reach his goals. He can't rush headlong while drunk into a house without waiting for the people to sleep or leave.

 

But there are virtues which cannot be attained by human effort. Because they require God's help, they are called theological virtues: Faith, hope, and charity. Because they can only be gained as gifts from God, that is also why we say that they are obtained by grace. So the supernatural gifts of grace (so-called because they are above nature) help to perfect the natural goods/gifts that everyone possesses to some degree. That is why we would think it is always good to encourage even the unbeliever toward the "natural virtues". Good nature predisposes to the "supernature" which is necessary for union with God.

 

But someone objects that the Scriptures teach that we are "dead in trespasses and sins". We agree with the Calvinist who says that apart from grace, we cannot be saved. But we hold that the death spoken of in Scripture in regards to our relationship with God cannot mean that there is nothing good that remains after the fall. It merely means there is nothing good enough to merit heaven.

 

We need to look at the "death" spoken of in the New Testament in association with the fall of Adam and Eve. They died as God said. But they died in two ways, spiritually, at once (alienated from God, hiding from Him). That death was more terrible than that they eventually died physically too. Rightfully, the Scriptures refer to the fallen status of man in emphatically tragic terms. Calvinists wrongly assume, in my opinion, that there is not one good thing left.

 

Interestingly, Calvinists have a doctrine called "common grace". Non-salvific, and common (even the non-elect have this grace) it explains for them how to understand why fathers and mothers will sacrifice themselves for their children and other acts of justice, temperance, prudence, and courage can be performed by persons in whom no good whatsoever inheres. So even the Calvinist notices and acknowledges that everybody does good things, even if they are supposedly totally depraved. For practical purposes nobody believes that anybody behaves as thought they are totally depraved.   

Edited May 20, 2014 by 3DOP

[JDave]

Thanks 3DOP, that was enlightening.  It also gave me some thoughts from an LDS perspective.

 

I think that, in attempting to counteract doctrines like the depravity of man, LDS thought has swung a bit wide in the other direction.  Rather than utterly depraved, we are now perfectly righteous just before our birth.  The only reason we sin at all is because of this pesky flesh that we are trying to tame.

 

As Bikeemikey said, though, there is too much of a conflation between the "natural man" and the "flesh".  Otherwise it would follow that our flesh is the underlying cause of even sins of pride -- since our spirit was so perfect that it couldn't be the cause.  Much more likely is that we came to this earth to gain a body and establish dominion/union with our bodies and spirits, as well as further bring our spirits in line with eternal truth in ways that we couldn't while still in the presence of God.

 

The scripture I quoted earlier, Alma 13:3 (as well as others) indicate that even as spirits we had the ability to be more as well as less righteous.  So, similar to how we take our "same spirit" with us when we die, I think that we brought our "same spirit" with us when we were born.  That is, we brought a spirit with tendencies for good and bad.  We are all born innocent regardless due to the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Of course we all chose overall to follow God, so I would think we have a much greater tendency for good.  And the flesh certainly will have an impact, along with its own trials.

[Calm]

"The only reason we sin at all is because of this pesky flesh that we are trying to tame."

Where do you think this is taught? At a grassroots level or officially? It is not something I have noticed, perhaps because I have always seen potential for pride being an eternal characteristic given Lucifer's fate so my own bias led me away from that interpretation.

[Bikeemikey]

"The only reason we sin at all is because of this pesky flesh that we are trying to tame."

Where do you think this is taught? At a grassroots level or officially? It is not something I have noticed, perhaps because I have always seen potential for pride being an eternal characteristic given Lucifer's fate so my own bias led me away from that interpretation.

I think a lot of people realize sin can't simply be the result of flesh but don't actually consciously get there unless they are challenged to really explore the concept and relationship of sin, per earth choice and the temporal body.

Pre-earth doctrine allows LDS to get to the idea of sin as a spiritual probability in a way that other Christian faiths struggle to do.

In my opinion.

[JDave]

"The only reason we sin at all is because of this pesky flesh that we are trying to tame."

Where do you think this is taught? At a grassroots level or officially? It is not something I have noticed, perhaps because I have always seen potential for pride being an eternal characteristic given Lucifer's fate so my own bias led me away from that interpretation.

I have never heard it taught explicitly.  It seems like the end result of some things I have heard taught, such as that we were perfect and sinless throughout the Spirit World.  And there is a lot of emphasis on overcoming the flesh and bridling our passions, that might cause some to think that sin is completely a product of coming to this earth.  I have definitely heard, as Bikeemikey mentioned, the idea of the "natural man" being explicitly taught as the flesh that we are to overcome.

[DJBrown]

Do you think we were born evil? I know that Mosiah 3:19 says the natural man is an enemy to God and has been since the Fall of Adam but it doesn't say what mankind was like before the fall of Adam and it doesn't say that mankind is evil. Also perplexing is Dc 93:38

 

38 "Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state,innocent before God."

 

I agree with the idea that we have the capacity to become evil and carnal and that and we are fallen but are we so disposed that given the chance to do good or bad we would be inclined to choose evil or continous bad acts, as if there is nothing good in us to chose good things?

 

We read in the Book of Mormon that "as in Adam [we] fall."  I believe we are born innocent and pure.  It is only after a period of years ( that we go through the process of "falling" in the same spiritual way that Adam and Eve fell.  Until then, we are innocent and exist in a type of spiritual paradise.  

 

I also believe that Adam and Eve did not know how to procreate while in the Garden of Eden.  They were naked and innocent, like we are before we are age 8 or so.  I have noticed with my children that they are perfectly fine being naked in front of their parents until about the age of 8 when they start feeling embarrassed by being naked.

 

After we all fall at age 8 or so, I believe we are all dual natured- possessing both good desires and evil desires.  Life is the battle between those two natures.  Our ultimately destiny will come as a result to our response to that battle and which spirit we follow.

 

Side note- could it be that the veil we talk of is simply the period of time as infants and toddlers that we can't remember?  

[ERayR]

Speak for yourself.

[Paloma]

Catholics use a common expression to illustrate the balance of goodness which remains after the Fall in "unaided human nature" (without God's grace).

 

We say that "Grace builds on nature". This means we think there is still inherent goodness in fallen man. That is why we talk about virtues that one can obtain apart from grace, the cardinal virtues: prudence, temperance, fortitude, and justice. Everyone has some of these. Example: A "successful thief" must have prudence to be reach his goals. He can't rush headlong while drunk into a house without waiting for the people to sleep or leave.

 

But there are virtues which cannot be attained by human effort. Because they require God's help, they are called theological virtues: Faith, hope, and charity. Because they can only be gained as gifts from God, that is also why we say that they are obtained by grace. So the supernatural gifts of grace (so-called because they are above nature) help to perfect the natural goods/gifts that everyone possesses to some degree. That is why we would think it is always good to encourage even the unbeliever toward the "natural virtues". Good nature predisposes to the "supernature" which is necessary for union with God.

 

But someone objects that the Scriptures teach that we are "dead in trespasses and sins". We agree with the Calvinist who says that apart from grace, we cannot be saved. But we hold that the death spoken of in Scripture in regards to our relationship with God cannot mean that there is nothing good that remains after the fall. It merely means there is nothing good enough to merit heaven.

 

We need to look at the "death" spoken of in the New Testament in association with the fall of Adam and Eve. They died as God said. But they died in two ways, spiritually, at once (alienated from God, hiding from Him). That death was more terrible than that they eventually died physically too. Rightfully, the Scriptures refer to the fallen status of man in emphatically tragic terms. Calvinists wrongly assume, in my opinion, that there is not one good thing left.

 

Interestingly, Calvinists have a doctrine called "common grace". Non-salvific, and common (even the non-elect have this grace) it explains for them how to understand why fathers and mothers will sacrifice themselves for their children and other acts of justice, temperance, prudence, and courage can be performed by persons in whom no good whatsoever inheres. So even the Calvinist notices and acknowledges that everybody does good things, even if they are supposedly totally depraved. For practical purposes nobody believes that anybody behaves as thought they are totally depraved.   

 

Much of what you write here from a Catholic perspective, rings true for me as well, from my own Protestant upbringing.

 

I was raised in a Calvinist tradition, and always understood that we are made in the image of God, and while that image is marred in us, it is not altogether lost.  Total depravity (to my thinking) refers to every aspect of our being (emotional, physical, spiritual ... or mind, will, volition, etc.) having been affected by sin and inclined toward our own selfish interests (often destructively so), rather than inclined toward God's righteousness and toward other-centredness. 

 

Whenever I hear the words "total depravity" I think of phrases in Scripture like "all we like sheep have gone astray", and "the whole earth is groaning, awaiting God's redemption".  Not at all do I think of people (made in God's image!!)  being totally evil.  By God's grace, we are able to receive God's saving grace. 

 

And yes, even in our fallen state, we manifest signs and deeds of nobility, compassion, etc.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Paloma