John Dehlin Attempting To Change Bishop's Interviews

[Storm Rider]

Although all things are possible, I am very suspicious of this type of allegation. Decades ago there was little training for bishops regarding interviews and what is appropriate to ask and what is not. Today the standards are clear about what can and cannot be asked i.e. specifically probing questions are unacceptable. 

 

This sounds more like the dead horse that is being brought out to beat again for those that need a new issue to create. This chap really disgusts me; the Al Sharpton of Mormon issues. 

[sethpayne]

I think it is in the Church's best interest to instruct Bishops never to ask youth about sexual matters.  It is incredibly inappropriate and, if it hasn't already, will result in some sort of lawsuit or accusation against a Bishop.

 

These issues should only be discussed between a parent and their child, IMO.

[Gray]

Oh, big time CFR. This used to happen maybe 20 years ago, but the church is crystal clear in training bishops these days. The first thing they are instructed to to is call the church hotline where church lawyers know what the rules are by jurisdiction. The only time that the next call would not be to the police is if the perpetrator confessed directly. And in some jurisdictions, even that circumstance called the "seal of the confessional" does not stand. 

 

I'm not sure you can CFR my thoughts (reference: me).

 

In any case, here's a recent example:

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865555591/Charges-dismissed-against-Mormon-bishop-accused-of-not-reporting-sex-abuse.html?pg=all

 

I believe teachers are required to report it, while clergy are not

Edited April 30, 2014 by Gray

[pogi]

I think it is in the Church's best interest to instruct Bishops never to ask youth about sexual matters.  It is incredibly inappropriate and, if it hasn't already, will result in some sort of lawsuit or accusation against a Bishop.

 

These issues should only be discussed between a parent and their child, IMO.

 

That is not how the repentance process works, it requires confession to a judge in Israel. I think the church views sexual misconduct as a greater threat than lawsuits and accusations.  What happens when your parents are inactive or abusive or shame centered etc?

[Scott Lloyd]

I think it is in the Church's best interest to instruct Bishops never to ask youth about sexual matters.  It is incredibly inappropriate and, if it hasn't already, will result in some sort of lawsuit or accusation against a Bishop.

 

These issues should only be discussed between a parent and their child, IMO.

This neglects the fact that sexual sin can affect one's standing in the Church and that it is the bishop's role as a common judge in Israel to determine what action must be taken in that event.

 

Moreover, it is often the case that a parent is the last person in the world that a child would be apt to approach initially for the confession of sexual sin.

 

Furthermore, there may well be circumstances where neither parent is disposed or in a position to do what needs to be done to help a transgressor reconcile himself with the Church and with the Lord.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I believe teachers are required to report it, while clergy are not

 

Law's vary by state. In Utah, clergy must report unless the only source of information they have is a confession from the abuser themselves. 

[daz2]

The current policy in church government that sexual sins are to be confessed to bishops is not directed by scriptures, but developed over time.  At one point, confessions were to be made public, and at another they were to be made to Aaronic Priesthood teachers or to bishops.  Ed Kimball's article sets out the history of LDS practices and policies regarding confession.  https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=6400

[Scott Lloyd]

The current policy in church government that sexual sins are to be confessed to bishops is not directed by scriptures, but developed over time.  At one point, confessions were to be made public, and at another they were to be made to Aaronic Priesthood teachers or to bishops.  Ed Kimball's article sets out the history of LDS practices and policies regarding confession.  https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=6400

Not everything mandated by the Lord can necessarily be found in the scriptures.

[Bikeemikey]

I never had a Bishop ask me about "masturbation" specifically".

But as long as such an act violates the Lord's standard of morality, I can't imagine why it would be improper for a Bishop to ask about it. That's his job. I can understand some Bishops might be over-zealous and tactless, but Dehlin isn't ever going to be able to fix that.

No but the truth is that our "lay clergy" cuts both ways... we do often end up with ecclesiastical leaders with a fraction of the training that other religious communities have. Our bishops in particular are frequently placed in difficult circumstances with limited or no training to help them prepare.

While I disagree with Dehlin regarding this specific issue I do think that highlighting the need for increasing the training of ecclesiastical leaders is a very good idea.

[MichelleD]

I do think this could be disastrous for the PR of the church if women or youth started talking about any bad experiences they've had and I hope Dehlin wouldn't do that. We know why youth interviews are held and the need to remain morally clean but to the world it could sound very bad that adult males are questioning teenage girls (and boys) about sexual topics alone and behind closed doors.

[mercyngrace]

In the same way they should be able to go to their bishop.

I would honestly be more worried about abusive parents then abusive bishops. If I were a bishop and some parents insisted I never interview their child alone I would be suspicious of the parent.

 

Well, you can be suspicious of me then. Just recently my husband and I made the decision to attend interviews with our children. This decision was made because (1) there were accounts by other parents in the ward that the bishop had gone too far in interviews and (2) I was interviewed by our bishop for an unrelated reason and he crossed several lines with me. It was bad and I left an emotional wreck. He then offered help which I declined.

 

My tears weren't even dry before he was calling around the ward council and both sharing details and ignoring my refusal of assistance. He showed no discretion and no respect for my agency. Sorry. My kids won't go in with him alone. If we have to take this to the SP, we will. 

[Storm Rider]

I think it is in the Church's best interest to instruct Bishops never to ask youth about sexual matters.  It is incredibly inappropriate and, if it hasn't already, will result in some sort of lawsuit or accusation against a Bishop.

 

These issues should only be discussed between a parent and their child, IMO.

 

It is my understanding that they do not initiate the conversation about specific immoral acts.  Should the individual desire to confess a topic then it is addressed from the context of repentance and forgiveness.  This is the reason I find this story a little hard to swallow.  If you are talking 50 years ago, okay, but it is much more difficult to believe about today.  That is not to say there is not some renegade, independent-minded, bishop with a messiah complex that could go whacko on us, but that is the exception rather than the rule. 

[sethpayne]

This neglects the fact that sexual sin can affect one's standing in the Church and that it is the bishop's role as a common judge in Israel to determine what action must be taken in that event.

 

Moreover, it is often the case that a parent is the last person in the world that a child would be apt to approach initially for the confession of sexual sin.

 

Furthermore, there may well be circumstances where neither parent is disposed or in a position to do what needs to be done to help a transgressor reconcile himself with the Church and with the Lord.

 

 

Well, I simply can't get behind the idea of an adult male talking to a young woman about her sexual habits.  Yes, Bishops are judges in Israel.  But individuals also have an obligation to repent and if they choose to share something with a Bishop that's one thing.  If not, a Bishop simply should not ask young men or young women about sex.  Period.  It wildly inappropriate for a Bishop to start such a conversation and even if a young man or woman brings it up, I think Bishops need to be very wise in how they discuss the matter.

 

I wasn't a shy young man and one day a member of the SP started asking me very explicit questions that came out of the blue.  I politely told him that his questions were inappropriate and making me uncomfortable and that if/when I felt I had something to resolve with Priesthood leaders, I would let my Bishop know.

[sethpayne]

It is my understanding that they do not initiate the conversation about specific immoral acts.  Should the individual desire to confess a topic then it is addressed from the context of repentance and forgiveness.  This is the reason I find this story a little hard to swallow.  If you are talking 50 years ago, okay, but it is much more difficult to believe about today.  That is not to say there is not some renegade, independent-minded, bishop with a messiah complex that could go whacko on us, but that is the exception rather than the rule. 

 

I think it depends on the Bishop.  I've had some that never ever brought it up.  I've had some that brought it up in every interview.

 

I can't think of the source but I recall reading a talk somewhere about a Bishop getting so explicit in his questioning that it actually gave the young man ideas about experimentation etc...  IIRC the talk's counsel was to avoid going into specifics.

 

ETA:  FWIW I don't think the way John Dehlin is going about this is the most appropriate or effective.  John has GA friends and if he is concerned he should raise the issue with them.  I don't think trotting out individual horror stories is going to help anyone and only serves to foster anger towards the Church.  In my experience most Church leaders are open to feedback and I am confident that most of the Quorum of the 12 would be supportive of the idea that Bishops need to tread *very* lightly and err on the side of caution when it comes to young women/men and the subject of sex.

Edited April 30, 2014 by sethpayne

[Gray]

I was asked the "M" question by every bishop I had growing up, and also in MTC interviews (but not by my Mission President, or by anyone after my mission).

 

It's always awkward, but only the first time it was asked (I was 11) was emotionally unsettling. That's too young to be behind closed doors with a grownup (and essentially a stranger) talking about that kind of thing. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by Gray

[Bikeemikey]

Well, you can be suspicious of me then. Just recently my husband and I made the decision to attend interviews with our children. This decision was made because (1) there were accounts by other parents in the ward that the bishop had gone too far in interviews and (2) I was interviewed by our bishop for an unrelated reason and he crossed several lines with me. It was bad and I left an emotional wreck. He then offered help which I declined.

My tears weren't even dry before he was calling around the ward council and both sharing details and ignoring my refusal of assistance. He showed no discretion and no respect for my agency. Sorry. My kids won't go in with him alone. If we have to take this to the SP, we will.

Im not sure what I would do in this situation but I might be inclined to not be interviewed or have my kids interviewed by such a bishop.

[sethpayne]

I was asked the "M" question by every bishop I had growing up, and also in MTC interviews (but not by my Mission President, or by anyone after my mission).

 

It's always awkward, but only the first time it was asked (I was 11) was emotionally unsettling. That's too young to be behind closed doors with a grownup (and essentially a stranger) talking about that kind of thing. 

 

 

I have a couple of buddies who didn't even know what "M" was until their Bishop brought it up.

[stemelbow]

I have a couple of buddies who didn't even know what "M" was until their Bishop brought it up.

I'm not your buddy, but when it was brought up to me I wasn't really sure. I just heard kids joke about it, but wasn't sure how it was supposed to work.

[ALarson]

Well, you can be suspicious of me then. Just recently my husband and I made the decision to attend interviews with our children. This decision was made because (1) there were accounts by other parents in the ward that the bishop had gone too far in interviews and (2) I was interviewed by our bishop for an unrelated reason and he crossed several lines with me. It was bad and I left an emotional wreck. He then offered help which I declined.

 

My tears weren't even dry before he was calling around the ward council and both sharing details and ignoring my refusal of assistance. He showed no discretion and no respect for my agency. Sorry. My kids won't go in with him alone. If we have to take this to the SP, we will. 

I'm sorry you had to go through that.  That's quite a betrayal too.

 

I do not blame you at all for making the decision you have made regarding your kids as each person has to decide what feels right for them and their family. Parents are definitely within their rights to request to be present in these interviews (especially if they've had a bad experience themselves with the Bishop like you've had).

[Gray]

I have a couple of buddies who didn't even know what "M" was until their Bishop brought it up.

 

That would be me at 11

[Rock_N_Roll]

Although all things are possible, I am very suspicious of this type of allegation. Decades ago there was little training for bishops regarding interviews and what is appropriate to ask and what is not. Today the standards are clear about what can and cannot be asked i.e. specifically probing questions are unacceptable. 

 

This sounds more like the dead horse that is being brought out to beat again for those that need a new issue to create. This chap really disgusts me; the Al Sharpton of Mormon issues. 

I believe this probably happens more often than you might think, especially with older bishops. 

Just a couple of years ago, a young man in the Teachers Quorum was caught “M” on a campout.  Upon their return, one of the leaders informed the bishop.  The next Sunday, the bishop held a “special” meeting just for the boys in the Teachers Quorum where this was discussed in detail.  Then, each boy was asked the question in individual, semi-annual interviews with the bishop.  My son was a Teacher at the time; this is how I know this.  I assured him that he did not have to go to any more interviews with this bishop if he didn’t want (he didn’t). I was a leader in Priests Quorum at the time, and the bishop held a “special” meeting with them one night on a campout where this was discussed as well. I was in attendance to this “special” meeting and was quite uncomfortable, so were the boys.  An activity that had once been a fun and happy experience turned shameful and quiet.  

[Tacenda]

That would be me at 11

This is what strikes me as sad!  No bishop should be talking about this with the youth. 

[Duncan]

I probably mentioned this before but a few years ago at a Stake Priesthood Mtg our Stake President said directly that "M* leads to Murder" heaven forbid there be any teen there who is caught up in it and hates himself even more and drops out of church or just hangs back. I don't even know how someone like a stake president would believe that 

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, I simply can't get behind the idea of an adult male talking to a young woman about her sexual habits.  Yes, Bishops are judges in Israel.  But individuals also have an obligation to repent and if they choose to share something with a Bishop that's one thing.  If not, a Bishop simply should not ask young men or young women about sex.  Period.  It wildly inappropriate for a Bishop to start such a conversation and even if a young man or woman brings it up, I think Bishops need to be very wise in how they discuss the matter.

 

I wasn't a shy young man and one day a member of the SP started asking me very explicit questions that came out of the blue.  I politely told him that his questions were inappropriate and making me uncomfortable and that if/when I felt I had something to resolve with Priesthood leaders, I would let my Bishop know.

Certainly, a priesthood leader must be very wise and circumspect in these situations and act only as guided by the Spirit.

 

And I have no doubt that in a forum like this, people will come forth with all manner of horror stories and anecdotes. I don't condone unwise, improper or indecent behavior on the part of anyone.

 

That said, just as I trust a pediatrician in saying and doing certain things with regard to my children that he must do in order to fulfill his role, things that I would never approve anyone else doing, not even a bishop, there are certain things a bishop must do to fulfill his calling as it pertains to youth, things I would not approve of someone else doing.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mormonnewb]

That is not how the repentance process works, it requires confession to a judge in Israel. I think the church views sexual misconduct as a greater threat than lawsuits and accusations.  What happens when your parents are inactive or abusive or shame centered etc?

 

CFR on the necessity for confession to a judge in Israel.  I'm not skeptical.  I believe it's part of our doctrine.  I just would like to know where it comes from.