John Dehlin Attempting To Change Bishop's Interviews

[ERMD]

I'm not doubting what you say and have heard similar things from time to time. Do you know if this is officially spelled out anywhere?

It is.  I am a bishop and perform these interviews regularly.  I am very familiar with the requirements.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

It is.  I am a bishop and perform these interviews regularly.  I am very familiar with the requirements.

So that would be in the mission prep paperwork then? I don't recall ever seeing anything in the handbook.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well that was classy

No more classy than being hounded about every interview by my bishop. Oh well. When asked if I have a problem with it, I should have just said "Nope, it works every time".

[ALarson]

Youth need a limited use recommend to go to the temple.

One of the temple recommend questions is, "Do you live the Law of Chastity?"

Many youth ask, "What does that mean?"

 

For those who think a bishop should not approach such subjects, how do you propose he respond?

 

Additionally, pornography use amongst youth is rampant, both male and female (sexting, for example).  Masturbation almost always accompanies viewing of pornography, particularly in young men.  A young man should be free from the practice of masturbation prior to being able to submit mission paper work.

 

This being the case, what do you propose a bishop should do?

I think these topics could be covered in a lesson to the priesthood quorums (age appropriate).  Explain in detail what the Law of Chastity includes to all the boys (and girls too in their own class with their leaders there).   

 

A link was given earlier to an excellent lesson on this, but here it is again:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-39-the-law-of-chastity?lang=eng

 

But bringing the topic up as a Bishop or introducing explicit sexual questions or discussion is inappropriate IMO and that includes asking boys about masturbation (or girls). 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am in the YM's and yesterday I was talking to the bishop about some of the kids.  He told me that for the priests he asks when the last time they did "M" and when was the last time they looked at pornography.  I have no issue with it. 

 

I was asked those exact questions growing up and in college and never felt violated.  Of course, my experience is different than others.

 

Its not a matter of if the Young Men do this.  I would say the majority do one or both.  And a lot of these boys won't want to go to their parents about it but do have an easier time going to the bishop.  Some parents never have the "talk" with their kids or just say "don't do it".  Nobody really explains it in more detail because some people feel awkward doing it.  My parents never talked about it with me growing up. 

 

A lot of these kids need to be talked to bluntly about these things and need good explanations on the "whys".  This is not an issue to be avoided because it may be awkward. 

 

As for the Young Women, I have no idea.  I didn't ask him about it and didn't feel it was my place to ask.

You know for the most part I agree with you on this. It was very uncomfortable though, having never been talked to about the big M, but when the bishop asked I was just scared. I think a little training in this area could go a long way. One thing is for sure. I am going to be so blunt with my kids that they will have no questions about it. My parents just ignored it and I had a talking (he tried) to by my dad the day before my wedding. Rofl. Now that is really funny.

[mercyngrace]

They CAN'T stop there. If you answered that you broke the Law of Chastity the Bishop has to find out what happened. Stopping there is abrogating their responsibility.

 

If the child has broken the law of chastity and needs to confess, questions that maintain the dignity of the individual can be used to determine an appropriate administrative response but I'm talking about these questions being asked as a matter of routine to kids who haven't crossed or even come close to the line. 

 

Pahoran is saying that bishops were instructed not to ask for details. Add me to the list of those who are requesting a CFR*, not because I doubt Pahoran but because I'd like to print out a copy and have in on hand for when the need arises. 

 

*If this has already been provided earlier in the thread, I missed it, would someone be kind enough to link the comment number? My work is so crazy I barely get back to the thread to even respond to those who directly address me much less read everything through, though I'm trying to catch up! Thanks!

Edited May 1, 2014 by mercyngrace

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

  Masturbation almost always accompanies viewing of pornography, particularly in young men.  A young man should be free from the practice of masturbation prior to being able to submit mission paper work.

I agree that men should be free from it before a mission. I think the best way for that to happen is communication. I am not sure the best way to handle it. If parents wont teach it then the next place would be in a class setting for the Aaronic priesthood. I think bishops should be involved. I just am not sure that bishops know that kids might not have been taught to not practice it.

[Madmardigan]

You know for the most part I agree with you on this. It was very uncomfortable though, having never been talked to about the big M, but when the bishop asked I was just scared. I think a little training in this area could go a long way. One thing is for sure. I am going to be so blunt with my kids that they will have no questions about it. My parents just ignored it and I had a talking (he tried) to by my dad the day before my wedding. Rofl. Now that is really funny.

I agree that there should be more training.  Its pretty obvious that people have issues with it.  And my parents were the same way.  After my wedding my dad says, "its fun".  Thanks Dad!

 

I am also trying to be proactive about it as well since I am in Young Mens.  I talk bluntly in class to all of them.  And once my kids are old enough I will be blunt with them too.

 

However, no matter how many times the church may tell the parents to talk to their kids, some just won't do it. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

However, no matter how many times the church may tell the parents to talk to their kids, some just won't do it. 

And that is really what I think the big issue is. It's not that the bishop talks to the youth about if they had sex or that they "M". It is that parents sometimes are so aloof about it. And that is the place were we can see a real problem and try to fix it there.

[halconero]

Have a class to teach their parents to talk with them?  Has this been done?  Make it a mandatory lesson in church correlation.  I don't know, but it's not a bishop's place.  Sorry, but he isn't the father of the ward that some make him out to be.  It needs to start in the home.  Once again the church is sitting in between, the middle man.  As if the parent can't handle it.  Or as if the youth can't go to the Lord and confess. 

 

The Bible tells the repentant to confess their sins to the church.

[ERMD]

I think these topics could be covered in a lesson to the priesthood quorums (age appropriate).  Explain in detail what the Law of Chastity includes to all the boys (and girls too in their own class with their leaders there).   

 

A link was given earlier to an excellent lesson on this, but here it is again:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-39-the-law-of-chastity?lang=eng

 

But bringing the topic up as a Bishop or introducing explicit sexual questions or discussion is inappropriate IMO and that includes asking boys about masturbation (or girls). 

Lessons are good, but worthiness interviews must be held.  Especially when it comes to attending the temple or serving missions, bishops and stake presidents are instructed to conduct "thorough, searching" interviews.

 

If youth of either sex are going to do either of the above, then it is going to happen, whether you find it appropriate or not.  Taking into account the age and gender of the youth is critical, and any bishop who does not do that needs to be counseled by his stake president; nevertheless, the responsibility is there and cannot be ignored or delegated.

[why me]

For the record, child abuse has been around much longer than the Internet. And it is NOT getting worse. It's actually getting MUCH better. In fact, children have NEVER been subjected to less abuse (at least, in the Western world).  And the reason is because we've learned to be more watchful of potentially dangerous situations and avoid them.

 

Take, for instance, the problems that our Catholic friends had with their clergy.  Almost without exception, those dreadful instances occurred long BEFORE Al Gore invented the Internet.  It wasn't the filth of the Internet that started the abuse.  However, it was partially due to the power of the Internet that they've been largely curtailed as victims were able to connect and bring their grievances.

And since this is a common theme of yours, can you please enlighten me as to the approximate dates of the "moral" era that we have moved away from? I'd really like to know WHEN "perversion" was not prevalent.

Of course it has been around for a long time. However, it has only been recent that people have lost trust in other human beings. The bishop used to be a trusted person. No longer. The assumption now is that the bishop is a pervert. Likewise for the scout leader, the teacher etc. So, parents do not want the bishop to ask any kind of sexual questions because such questions and their answers just may turn him on. So, we have all become perverts: the bishop and the parents because it is as if we have nothing else on our minds but perversion.

 

The internet has allowed child abusers to connect around the world and many people love to watch other people having sex on the internet. Think about it...By the way, it may not be prevalent now. It is just assumed that it is which is why some people on this thread don't want the bishop to ask morality questions.

[mercyngrace]

So, in preparation for a youth temple trip, I'm sitting in my office, ask this question, and the 12, 13, or 14 year old responds as above.  You say I stop the interview, tell them to ask their parents, and then have him/her get back with me.

 

Got it.

 

I would say pull out the FSOY pamphlet and go over the actual law of chastity then talk about behaviors which can make the sexual drive stronger and more difficult to control. I'd be really clear about where the line is and that some activities which may not prohibit holding a TR or impact membership can still pose problems in our lives if our passions are not bridled. I think I would approach this as teaching, not asking questions, and then let the child say whatever he or she wanted to say. If a YM/YW says they have a problem with masturbation, are they denied a TR?

 

Do you ask adults if they masturbate or do you just assume they don't? Or do you assume they'd tell you if they did? Or do you leave the specifics up to their discretion? I'm just thinking aloud here but I think we kind of assume that adults know where the lines are or are in charge of defining them for themselves right up until a clear violation. 

 

I don't mean to barrage you with a lot of questions, ERMD, I've never been in the position of having a teenager interviewed by a bishop who 'gives me pause' before now so I've stepped from a theoretical examination of the topic to 'this just got real'. We're trying to navigate this with as much respect for the bishop and dignity for our children as possible. 

[why me]

The Bible tells the repentant to confess their sins to the church.

Especially the serious sins which is why the catholic church still has confession done by a priest.

[JulieM]

Lessons are good, but worthiness interviews must be held.  Especially when it comes to attending the temple or serving missions, bishops and stake presidents are instructed to conduct "thorough, searching" interviews.

I feel that if the person (youth or otherwise) answers "Yes" to the question regarding if they are living the Law of Chastity, the Bishop should not follow up with searching or explicit questions. That is where you cross the line into being inappropriate with a youth or woman (or man) when you are alone with them behind closed doors. The details of what the Law of Chastity includes should be covered in a group environment and inviting the parents to be present for this is a good idea too.

Are you really instructed to bring the topic of masturbation up and ask probling, personal questions? According to others on here, the church leaders have instructed just the opposite.

[why me]

I would say pull out the FSOY pamphlet and go over the actual law of chastity then talk about behaviors which can make the sexual drive stronger and more difficult to control. I'd be really clear about where the line is and that some activities which may not prohibit holding a TR or impact membership can still pose problems in our lives if our passions are not bridled. I think I would approach this as teaching, not asking questions, and then let the child say whatever he or she wanted to say. If a YM/YW says they have a problem with masturbation, are they denied a TR?

 

Do you ask adults if they masturbate or do you just assume they don't? Or do you assume they'd tell you if they did? Or do you leave the specifics up to their discretion? I'm just thinking aloud here but I think we kind of assume that adults know where the lines are or are in charge of defining them for themselves right up until a clear violation. 

 

I don't mean to barrage you with a lot of questions, ERMD, I've never been in the position of having a teenager interviewed by a bishop who 'gives me pause' before now so I've stepped from a theoretical examination of the topic to 'this just got real'. We're trying to navigate this with as much respect for the bishop and dignity for our children as possible. 

Too much sex talk in church if we do this. We might as well show a movie about it,  something like they might show in a public school health class. Teenagers today know more about sex than previous generations. Just a click of the right website is a wonderful teacher. To believe that the teen is stupid about it would be wrong. I say give all teens a church sex talk, both girls and boys together...make it a teaching moment by a professional if possible. And what the bible says about it or leaders of the church. Maybe that will help.

[why me]

I feel that if the person (youth or otherwise) answers "Yes" to the question regarding if they are living the Law of Chastity, the Bishop should not follow up with searching or explicit questions. That is where you cross the line into being inappropriate with a youth or woman (or man) when you are alone with them behind closed doors. The details of what the Law of Chastity includes should be covered in a group environment and inviting the parents to be present for this is a good idea too.

Are you really instructed to bring the topic of masturbation up and ask probling, personal questions? According to others on here, the church leaders have instructed just the opposite.

How many boys or girls wish to talk about their masturbation problem with their parents present? Or for that matter if they had sex? If I were a teenager I wouldn't want my dad to know about my masturbation in the bathroom. Or if I already had sex. Since the bishop can't tell anyone about it except if something is excommunicable I may feel more comfortable with the bishop. I wouldn't assume that he was a pervert. Parents can talk to their teens about it before they meet the bishop...for example, if the bishop touches them etc.

Edited May 1, 2014 by why me

[ALarson]

How many boys or girls wish to talk about their masturbation problem with their parents present? Or for that matter if they had sex? If I were a teenager I wouldn't want my dad to know about my masturbation in the bathroom. Or is I already had sex. Since the bishop can't tell anyone about it except if something is excommunicable I may feel more comfortable with the bishop.

That's not the point here.  Many have brought up that parents simply do not want to talk to their kids about this topic.  However, the parents do need to know what is being taught to and discussed with their children.  To include parents in a discussion or lesson on what the Law of Chastity entails is an excellent suggestion.  No one is saying that the teens would be discussing "their masturbation problem" with their own parents for this group lesson.  

Edited May 1, 2014 by ALarson

[why me]

The best way to handle this kind of situation is for parents to talk to their child about meeting the bishop and what he should do and shouldn't do with them. But then again this talk should be had in general since teachers are also making inappropiate comments or suggestions. This is the same kind of talk that one can have about staying away from strangers etc. I think that this would solve the problem.

[ERMD]

I feel that if the person (youth or otherwise) answers "Yes" to the question regarding if they are living the Law of Chastity, the Bishop should not follow up with searching or explicit questions. That is where you cross the line into being inappropriate with a youth or woman (or man) when you are alone with them behind closed doors. The details of what the Law of Chastity includes should be covered in a group environment and inviting the parents to be present for this is a good idea too.

Are you really instructed to bring the topic of masturbation up and ask probling, personal questions? According to others on here, the church leaders have instructed just the opposite.

 

 

If a youth answers, "Yes," I may, depending on the situation, ask if he or she knows what that means.  If they in general get the concept, I move on.

 

 

What I stated above in quotes is out of the Handbook of Instructions.  Again, this is referring to temples and missions, not regular birthday "how ya doin' ?" interviews.

[why me]

That's not the point here.  Many have brought up that parents simply do not want to talk to their kids about this topic.  However, the parents do need to know what is being taught to and discussed with their children.  To include parents in a discussion or lesson on what the Law of Chastity entails is an excellent suggestion.  No one is saying that the teens would be discussing masturbation with their parents for this group lesson.  

Parents can speak to their kids about abuse and what it is. It is the same talk that they can have about other adults that are in their lives: teachers, coaches, scout leaders, young women's or young men's leaders etc. It is up to the parents to speak about sexual abuse with their children and wha they should look at for.

Edited May 1, 2014 by why me

[toon]

If bishops just stuck to asking "Do you live the law of chastity?", it would be fine. And if kids have questions, they should use the temple language (no sexual relations except to your spouse to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded - something like that). 

 

It's when they start digging into details that issues arise. 

 

IMO, if a bishop wants to explain the standards in detail as a warning against behaviors that can leave to a LOC violation, that's great fireside fodder (with parents invited to add to the discussion). But the law of chastity is simple and clear. 

 

I understand that member worthiness is necessary for several ordinances and blessings, and when a member presents him or herself to request that ordinance or blessing, it makes sense for the Bishop to ask questions about that members' worthiness.  Even then, though, the Bishop should stick to the general question.

 

But outside of that context, I don't know why a Bishop should actively be inquiring about a members' worthiness, youth or not.  I'm not sure why annual or semi-annual interviews with youth need to focus on the youth's worthiness, at least with questions designed to find ouf if they are obeying the commandments or have committed any sin.  Ask if the youth is planning on a mission, what he or she is doing to get there, whether they're reading the scriptures and how often, work to challenge the particular youth to read scriptures or take steps, set goals, and follow up on goals previously set.  Teach about chastity, word of wisdom, etc., at firesides and other settings, and with an open door policy, the youth should feel welcome to approach the Bishop if there is a problem.  I can understand exceptions, but I think this should be the general rule.

[mercyngrace]

Too much sex talk in church if we do this. We might as well show a movie about it,  something like they might show in a public school health class. Teenagers today know more about sex than previous generations. Just a click of the right website is a wonderful teacher. To believe that the teen is stupid about it would be wrong. I say give all teens a church sex talk, both girls and boys together...make it a teaching moment by a professional if possible. And what the bible says about it or leaders of the church. Maybe that will help.

I'll admit that since we homeschool, how we teach about sex is pretty matter-of-fact. We teach it in 5th grade and follow up as necessary. We essentially say "this is how mammalian bodies work" and then explain that adolescence is the period during which your body prepares for adulthood. We detail exactly what that means and what's worth worrying about and what's not. We explain the church standards and how those standards provide a measure of self-control and safety. 

 

Then we take the lofty view. We teach that we need to be able to see individuals not just bodies and that in order to love, (Alma 36) we need to bridle our passions - passions being more about us than the other person. We teach respect for all people and that the Savior's command not to lust doesn't have and "unless she's really hot" exclusion. We explain that this is because if you are lusting, you aren't really seeing. The Savior could see, really see, a woman taken in the very act of adultery. He didn't see her body. He saw her broken and fearful heart. He saw her need for mercy. He saw her need for correction. He saw her need for charity. So far, reinforcing this has been effective but our oldest is only 15. Still he knows exactly what I mean when I say "Do you see her, son?" and it brings him back to the ultimate goal.

 

As a teacher at church, I also take this lofty approach when I teach the law of chastity (minus the explicit biology lesson).

Edited May 1, 2014 by mercyngrace

[ERMD]

BTW, I have had many youth either in TR interview questions or come up to me in the hallway and ask, "Can I talk to you?" and then open up regarding things they have done.  Use your imagination, and you will probably not come up with every scenario I have had to deal with with a YM or YW.  They for the most part want to get past it, and almost never want their parents to know.  I encourage them to speak to their parents, but I never violate confidentiality (unless suicidal or something of that degree).

 

At the same time, I counsel parents about how they may respond to their children so their children will feel that they can approach them without them "freaking out," as the kids say.

[ALarson]

BTW, I have had many youth either in TR interview questions or come up to me in the hallway and ask, "Can I talk to you?" and then open up regarding things they have done.  Use your imagination, and you will probably not come up with every scenario I have had to deal with with a YM or YW.  They for the most part want to get past it, and almost never want their parents to know.  I encourage them to speak to their parents, but I never violate confidentiality (unless suicidal or something of that degree).

 

I think this is a different situation.  You did not bring the topic up, but the youth approached you wanting to talk.  It sounds like you're a good Bishop and are trying to keep everything in balance.  It's got to be tough to deal with this and walk the line of what is appropriate and what isn't.