John Dehlin Attempting To Change Bishop's Interviews

[Tacenda]

More importantly, we might want to rethink our scouting and YM programs. I was not raised in this Church, or any church for that matter. My friends and I did not have the advantages of sound moral teachings and yet, the idea of a group M session was NEVER raised -- not even once. In fact, I can think of no faster way to be thrown out of the "crew" than to even HINT at the concept. It is shocking that this has occurred enough in our Church to warrant one of the Brethren to address it. I'm starting to wonder what I've got my family into here.

I hate to say it but I've heard of an instance where several young men in high school, went to a party and all of them did 'M', with everyone around. I was not there, but I know one went on to serve a mission, so it's possible.  ETA:  I forgot to mention this would have been when Pres. Kimball was the prophet.  Back in the late 70's.  Someone I'm close to, brought it up recently, we both know the person personally.   

Edited May 2, 2014 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

 

 

Wouldn't they fall under "trained medical professional"?

 

 

well, I was thinking of MD's for medical professionals and not a PH.D. but the chances of either doing anything nefarious are remote as is a Bishop in an interview. I suppose if any of them were to do anything it would happen away from the Church

[MichelleD]

You are wrong. In fact, it is a well known fact among those who study porn use that heterosexual men who look at a porn in some cases start to develop a taste for porn that does not align with their sexual orientation.

 

http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/ask-us-iam-attracted-to-gay-transsexual

Well, I believe that you are wrong. For every study you can post links to, I can do the same proving my belief. I don't believe that watching gay porn causes people to become gay unless they already were born with those tendencies.

[MichelleD]

Really?Well, I've never actually heard of such a thing happening either. (And MichelleD, before you fire off a CFR, you're just going to have to take my word for that.) In any of the wards and branches I've been a member of, or visited. In three countries.I don't think such a practice is very widespread, or indeed if it ever was.Regards,Pahoran

Don't worry, I won't CFR you anymore because you can't or won't supply references from what I've seen on this thread and elsewhere recently. You make statements but can't back them up with references when asked for them.

Or have you found the reference supporting your statement that these interviews are a "discontinued" practice?

How about the directive from church leaders that came out 20 years ago to stop asking questions of a sexual nature? Have you found the reference to back up that statement you made? I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting for these.

[canard78]

Well there we are then. Who needs prophets when we've got "enlightened" canards to guide us?

The trouble with your argument, Canard, is that you are leaping to a hasty conclusion. President Kimball does not say it happens automatically or always.

In fact, he explicitly says "sometimes."

And when it comes to that, once is enough.

Regards,

Pahoran

 

If this is the case, show me an additional scriptural or modern revelation for it. Where is it in the lesson manuals, the youth manuals, the priesthood talks? I'm not aware of any other prophet or leader ever stating this warning.

 

If you can't then it would fall under this statement from the church:

 

A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications.

 

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Well, I believe that you are wrong. For every study you can post links to, I can do the same proving my belief. I don't believe that watching gay porn causes people to become gay unless they already were born with those tendencies.

I think both can be right. As with most things in human experience, sexuality is a spectrum. I firmly believe that some people are born gay, and nothing they can do will change that. I believe that most people in the church that identify as gay fit this mold. I also think there is a larger group of people (but still a minority) that can go either way. The choices these people make in regards to sexuality are probably influenced by society at large, family, friends, and media / porn consumption. Due to strong pressures to be straight, I would suspect that this second group is a very small minority of those who identify as gay in the church.

[Gray]

Prophets through the ages?

Where? Joseph Smith? Isaiah? Abraham? Doesn't that manual contradict Scott Lloyd's position that this is not scriptural and instead is a modern revelation.

As for the President Kimball quote, what a complete and utter nonsense. If that were true then there would be far more than 1-2% of people who are gay.

 

As I understand it, the church didn't start formulating real views on the subject until the 1950s. It's mentioned nowhere in the scriptures.

 

I think President Kimball confused correlation with causation.

[wenglund]

I don't see that this has been posted here, and I didn't want to derail the other thread.  Here's the latest request from John Dehlin that is being posted on other sites online:

 

 

I guess there are many who have had some bad experiences with interviews (or disciplinary counsels) or with their teen children's interviews.  Some now insist on being present in any interviews between their child and the Bishop.

 

Many have also suggested that Dehlin take this to the press and expose what has happened regarding some being asked inappropriate questions behind closed doors with an adult male.

 

I have not ever had a bad experience myself nor have any of children (that I know of).  Any thoughts on this?

 

Delin's actions follow to the letter his books of scripture--i.e. the Busy-body Manuel and the Guide to Self-Promotion, where the primary tenet is to take a sensationalist issue, pretend it occurs often enough to warrant concern, particularly in a way that degrades existing authority, then ride in on a white horse with the alleged solution in hand. It has the makings of a superfluous hero. All that is needed is an uncritically minded crowd to cry in awe: "It's a bird...its a plane...no its..."

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Senator]

pretend it occurs often enough to warrant concern,

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

"And when it comes to that, once is enough"

[wenglund]

"And when it comes to that, once is enough"

 

...as if this supposedly justifies prolonged public debate and general policy requests from wannabes and ark steadiers, rather than rightly treated as exceptions on a case-by-case basis by those in authority.

 

Like the legal maxum says: "Hard cases make bad law."

 

But, then, any excuse for self-promotion is excuse enough.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Kenngo1969]

Perhaps Dehlin should quit trying to run the Church his way.

He could always start his own.  (Never ceases to amaze me how many ways people can devise of attempting to remake the Church of Jesus Christ in their own image ...)

[Tacenda]

Are you kidding, there have been people criticising the Church on this as long as I can remember, including someone who was making an effort to collect stories of ecclesiastical abuse iirc.

With JD's Mormonstories, Mormonmatters, It's a Thoughtful Faith, and Ordain Women's groups etc.  Need I say more?  That's a big following, or mindset, of a lot of LDS people.      

[Senator]

...as if this supposedly justifies prolonged public debate and general policy requests from wannabes and ark steadiers, rather than rightly treated as exceptions on a case-by-case basis by those in authority.

 

Like the legal maxum says: "Hard cases make bad law."

 

But, then, any excuse for self-promotion is excuse enough.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Just sayin'

[Kenngo1969]

Braaap!

Edited May 2, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[canard78]

...as if this supposedly justifies prolonged public debate and general policy requests from wannabes and ark steadiers, rather than rightly treated as exceptions on a case-by-case basis by those in authority.

 

Only page 13 and we've already fulfilled Godwin's MDDB Law! "Ark steadiers" usually takes a bit longer to be thrown around.

[Sleeper Cell]

Why not avoid any possibility of inappropriate questions or conduct by conducting  all bishop’s interviews online?  Fill out a simple True/False questionnaire for a “worthiness interview.” For Temple recommend interviews, get all of the questions right and download your recommend without leaving your home.  For other interviews, the church could create a “virtual bishop.”  Problem solved.

 

My next project is to create a virtual sacrament meeting,  enabling us to participate from home at whatever time we find convenient.  As an added bonus, each member could self-report his/her attendance.  I predict a dramatic improvement  in church activity statistics. 

Edited May 2, 2014 by Sleeper Cell

[wenglund]

Only page 13 and we've already fulfilled <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin" s_law"="">Godwin's MDDB Law! "Ark steadiers" usually takes a bit longer to be thrown around.

 

And, yet, after the warranted call-out, it took only a couple of posts before the anticipated ironically fallacious associations and dismissals were trotted out. 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 2, 2014 by wenglund

[ERayR]

Only page 13 and we've already fulfilled <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin" s_law"="">Godwin's MDDB Law! "Ark steadiers" usually takes a bit longer to be thrown around.

 

If it really fits is it an example pf Goodwin's law being fulfilled?  It seems the Goodwin's law club is a very handy diversion for the lack of a rational rebuttal.

[why me]

How about this for a general rule? "Son, if ANY adult other than a trained medical professional wants to have a private conversation with you about your privates, then you politely (or not so politely) excuse yourself and report the instance to a parent or another authority figure. Now, go back to playing Xbox."

Why would a bishop wish to talk about someone's private parts. But yes, if that did happen, I would consider that to be abusive and no medical professional necessary. However, we are basically dealing with bishops asking worthiness questions. This is not really that complicated and not the various sizes of private parts. In the catholic faith boys and girls go to the priest inside a booth and confess all sorts of sexual sins. No problem. Should the mom and dad be present in the booth?

[ERayR]

 

Why not avoid any possibility of inappropriate questions or conduct by conducting  all bishop’s interviews online?  Fill out a simple True/False questionnaire for a “worthiness interview.” For Temple recommend interviews, get all of the questions right and download your recommend without leaving your home.  For other interviews, the church could create a “virtual bishop.”  Problem solved.

 

My next project is to create a virtual sacrament meeting,  enabling us to participate from home at whatever time we find convenient.  As an added bonus, each member could self-report his/her attendance.  I predict a dramatic improvement  in church activity statistics. 

 

 

A defunct fast food building with a drive through window to dispense the sacrament emblems and your in business.  Add a keypad and attendance rolls could be completed as they drive through.

[ERayR]

He could always start his own.  (Never ceases to amaze me how many ways people can devise of attempting to remake the Church of Jesus Christ in their own image ...)

 

Why start his own if he can stage a coup of an organization that has an extensive infrastructure.

[ERayR]

I don't think that it's just the members who are trying to take the Church "mainstream." Unless it is the members who are responsible for the Church's recent press releases. In fact, one COULD argue that our foray into the SSM debate was an attempt to earn some "Christian cred" with the EVs.

 

That is one way to look at it or you might say it was the church taking a stand on a moral issue.

[why me]

Why start his own if he can stage a coup of an organization that has an extensive infrastructure.

I think that we need to get real here. If i did not have the internet, I would not know who John was. And I would see very little problem in the ward...all would seem normal. I think that the internet tends to blow things out of proportion. I haven't seen a mass exodus that has been predicted by critics for at least a few years now. However, the interent can give the notion that the dissatisfaction is huge and a complete collaspe of the lds church is soon. Quite the contrary.

[ERayR]

I think that we need to get real here. If i did not have the internet, I would not know who John was. And I would see very little problem in the ward...all would seem normal. I think that the internet tends to blow things out of proportion. I haven't seen a mass exodus that has been predicted by critics for at least a few years now. However, the interent can give the notion that the dissatisfaction is huge and a complete collaspe of the lds church is soon. Quite the contrary.

 

Tongue in cheek.  However, the internet is a tool that makes it possible for him to wreak havoc in a lot of peoples lives.

[why me]

Tongue in cheek.  However, the internet is a tool that makes it possible for him to wreak havoc in a lot of peoples lives.

This is true. But I do think that he has lost his thunder with his about face. I think that he disappointed a lot of his following when he did an about turn back to the church. But he is now attempting to hoe a middle ground. on a high wire.