John Dehlin Attempting To Change Bishop's Interviews

[mormonnewb]

Delin's actions follow to the letter his books of scripture--i.e. the Busy-body Manuel and the Guide to Self-Promotion, where the primary tenet is to take a sensationalist issue, pretend it occurs often enough to warrant concern, particularly in a way that degrades existing authority, then ride in on a white horse with the alleged solution in hand. It has the makings of a superfluous hero. All that is needed is an uncritically minded crowd to cry in awe: "It's a bird...its a plane...no its..."

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wow! In an entire paragraph, you managed to avoid even ONE substantive criticism of Dehlin's actual proposal. Instead, it was all ad hominem all the time. And given how well the last Dehlin ad hominem fest turned out, I would have thought that the apologists would start taking a different tact. Silly me!

[why me]

Thank you for making my point for me. Bad things can happen when adults and children are alone together. That's why it just makes sense to limit these interactions.

Doesn't our church take such prophylactic measures in other areas? Isn't it common practice for, say, a bishop and a RS pres to a avoid riding alone together in a car? In this case, we have two ADULTS in high callings and even still, our attitude is, "Better safe than sorry." When one of the individuals is a CHILD, it would seem that we would be even more cautious, not less.

How old is the child? These days, 13 year olds are looking at porn on the internet. They know a lot, much more than I did. Most teenagers are not stupid these days and many have had a parent talk about what to avoid when alone with an adult. I think that a bishop is the least of the problem these days.

[mormonnewb]

How old is the child? These days, 13 year olds are looking at porn on the internet. They know a lot, much more than I did. Most teenagers are not stupid these days and many have had a parent talk about what to avoid when alone with an adult. I think that a bishop is the least of the problem these days.

How old is the average RS Pres -- 40? Most 40 yos are not stupid these days. I think being seduced by the bishop is the least of their problems, and yet, we still suggest that they not ride alone together in a car.

If we're not comfortable with two ADULTS riding together on a public road in a largely see-through car talking about ward business, then why are we comfortable with a grown man and a CHILD in a room with the doors closed talking about SEX?

[why me]

How old is the average RS Pres -- 40? Most 40 yos are not stupid these days. I think being seduced by the bishop is the least of their problems, and yet, we still suggest that they not ride alone together in a car.

If we're not comfortable with two ADULTS riding together on a public road in a largely see-through car talking about ward business, then why are we comfortable with a grown man and a CHILD in a room with the doors closed talking about SEX?

I think that we live in a sad state of affairs when we can not trust a bishop in the lds church. But then, who can one trust in a nation that seems to be full of perverts. Much better not to have any interviews and also never allow a teenager to be alone with any adult, regardless if it is a teacher etc. Much better to keep them in a bubble until the age of 18. Is a teenager a child?

[mormonnewb]

I think that we live in a sad state of affairs when we can not trust a bishop in the lds church. But then, who can one trust in a nation that seems to be full of perverts. Much better not to have any interviews and also never allow a teenager to be alone with any adult, regardless if it is a teacher etc. Much better to keep them in a bubble until the age of 18. Is a teenager a child?

I think we live in a sad state of affairs when we can not trust a bishop in the lds church to ride alone in a car with a 40 yo RS pres.

Why are we keeping our 40 yo RS pres in a bubble?

Edited May 3, 2014 by mormonnewb

[cdowis]

It is a matter of appearance as well as the image of the church.  I think we can generally trust the bishop and RS president, but not the gossips in the ward.  If anything were to happen, the church would get the blame rather than the individuals involved.

 

We used to trust the elders and sister missionary relationships until LeBaron did his thing in France, so now there are strict rules in force.  The church learned its lesson.

[bluebell]

I think we live in a sad state of affairs when we can not trust a bishop in the lds church to ride alone in a car with a 40 yo RS pres.

Why are we keeping our 40 yo RS pres in a bubble?

 

It's probably the number of bishops and RS presidents who have had affairs with each other.

 

I ran into that on my mission in one ward and it was a disaster of epic proportions.  If anyone ever wants to destroy a whole ward, that's a great way to accomplish it.

[ERayR]

It's probably the number of bishops and RS presidents who have had affairs with each other.

 

I ran into that on my mission in one ward and it was a disaster of epic proportions.  If anyone ever wants to destroy a whole ward, that's a great way to accomplish it.

 

It's probably the number of bishops and RS presidents who have had affairs with each other.

 

I ran into that on my mission in one ward and it was a disaster of epic proportions.  If anyone ever wants to destroy a whole ward, that's a great way to accomplish it.

 

A YM president and YW president affair causes a lot of problems too.

[Storm Rider]

The problem is allowing a child to be alone with an adult. How many teachers are having affairs with their students? Many. The newspapers are fill of such incidence. If I know that the bishop is going to ask my son or daughter personal worthiness questions, I can certainly prepare them for it. I know what is going on. The problem comes when a scot leader, a teacher, a coach begins to ask such questions without my knowledge. To me this is far worse than a personal worthiness interview. My point is simple: one must prepare a son or a daughter for the possibilities what could happen when alone with an adult and to report any problem to the parent or to the authorities.

 

A bishop is the least of the problem.

 

Many relative to what?  There are 6.2 million teachers in the United States. Of that number how many abuse children? 20%, 10%, 1%, less than .5%, .001%.  Exactly how many?  

 

I am not trying to minimize problems or that bad things happen to individuals and that each individual has merit, but I do see value in learning about reality.  People now days have an attention span of less than 10 seconds. We live and listen in sound bites. We have become adrenaline junkies that enjoy life most when we can create a cause, get excited about it, and then move on to the next mental fad and point of protest. 

 

I do agree completely with you that a bishop, stake president, or more basically, priesthood interviews are the absolute least of concerns. Maybe for those who are absolutely committed to protesting, the Church could teach clearly the purpose and the types of questions a bishop or stake president will ask. This would at least give each member an understanding of what is acceptable and what is not. The emphasis then must be delineated that it is the member's option to discuss issues or not. Once a subject has been broached there may be times when additional questioning is done to gain an understanding of the full problem. These should be understood to be opportunities to shed ourselves of the entire sin.  We have become pretty proficient at minimizing our faults and problems and additional, thoughtful questions can assist in helping individuals face their problems fully.  

 

The bishop is not there to pry, but to stand as a judge in Israel and assist members through the repentance process. Listening to people's problems is not enjoyable or fun. Hearing about the full range of sins and the torment and pain those sins cause is not fun or enjoyable.  What makes it worthwhile is seeing individual members open themselves fully to the Atonement of Jesus Christ and learn their sins have been washed away.

[why me]

Many relative to what?  There are 6.2 million teachers in the United States. Of that number how many abuse children? 20%, 10%, 1%, less than .5%, .001%.  Exactly how many?  

 

I am not trying to minimize problems or that bad things happen to individuals and that each individual has merit, but I do see value in learning about reality.  People now days have an attention span of less than 10 seconds. We live and listen in sound bites. We have become adrenaline junkies that enjoy life most when we can create a cause, get excited about it, and then move on to the next mental fad and point of protest. 

 

I was attempting to show mormonnewb the problem with his logic of wanting to be with his teenager in the interview process. One cannot be present at all interviews between a young person and an adult. So, why stress the bishop and not the teacher or counselor or coach? Something is more likely to happen in such situations than with a bishop. We have the example of Penn State and countless teachers in junior high or high schools. And this is why I have recommended on this thread that a good talk with a child is a good way to avoid such abuse. because they will eventually be left alone with an adult.

 

Also, the child is a problem. What comes to mind is a child and not a teenager. We need to be clear just what a child is when we use that term. For me a child is rather young, still in elementary school.

[Yirgacheffe]

I was attempting to show mormonnewb the problem with his logic of wanting to be with his teenager in the interview process. One cannot be present at all interviews between a young person and an adult. So, why stress the bishop and not the teacher or counselor or coach? Something is more likely to happen in such situations than with a bishop. We have the example of Penn State and countless teachers in junior high or high schools. And this is why I have recommended on this thread that a good talk with a child is a good way to avoid such abuse. because they will eventually be left alone with an adult.

 

Also, the child is a problem. What comes to mind is a child and not a teenager. We need to be clear just what a child is when we use that term. For me a child is rather young, still in elementary school.

I don't see that anyone is stressing the bishop when it comes to contact with children (and I include teenagers) what people seem to object to is the content of the conversation and the seclusion in which they are held. From what I've read the percentage of Catholic priests who abused children is consistent with the percentage of abusers in any other occupation. What that tells me is that among LDS bishops the same percentage of abusers exists. For me the practice in the LDS and Catholic churches, of grown men talking to children about sexual topics in a secluded setting is not something that I'd accept. While you all (and Catholics) might find this practice necessary not all churches do, if I was inclined to join a church I would look to them, and these types of interviews would be a major reason why the LDS and Catholics wouldn't make my short list.

[Yirgacheffe]

It's probably the number of bishops and RS presidents who have had affairs with each other.

 

I ran into that on my mission in one ward and it was a disaster of epic proportions.  If anyone ever wants to destroy a whole ward, that's a great way to accomplish it.

The trouble is you really don't know how many instances of abuse happen, child abusers are much better at keeping things quiet, it's imperative to their survival in every aspect of their lives. Seems to me if it is inappropriate for grown men and women to car pool then sexual discussions in private between an adult and a child are equally inappropriate. Why couldn't you do something like the booths you see in movies? Then parents could bring their kids in watch them go into the little booth with the bishop in an adjoining one, the child has the interview "in private" while parents can sit and wait a bit back and see that no inappropriate interaction is taking place. It's all done in full view yet still private.

Not that that would ever make me believe that the whole sexual questioning thing was acceptable but it may alleviate the concerns of some LDS parents.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Yirgacheffe

[Stargazer]

I think we live in a sad state of affairs when we can not trust a bishop in the lds church to ride alone in a car with a 40 yo RS pres.

Why are we keeping our 40 yo RS pres in a bubble?

 

In our ward a few years ago, two married people (not married to each other) were chosen to be mom and dad leaders in one of those Handcart Company thingamabobs they have our youth go through.  Well, guess what happened?  No, not that right away.  Instead these two, who had previously been acquainted but not friends, found that they enjoyed each other's company.  Well, push came to shove, and about a year later they each divorced their current spouse, and after a "decent" interval, they got married.  This might have been great for them, but it was absolutely NOT great for their families.

 

If there had been a policy in place at that time that such couples be married to each other, this would likely have never happened.

 

Avoiding problems is the name of the game.  People get themselves in enough trouble by intention.  It is certainly not a bad thing to keep them from happening by accident.

[Yirgacheffe]

In our ward a few years ago, two married people (not married to each other) were chosen to be mom and dad leaders in one of those Handcart Company thingamabobs they have our youth go through.  Well, guess what happened?  No, not that right away.  Instead these two, who had previously been acquainted but not friends, found that they enjoyed each other's company.  Well, push came to shove, and about a year later they each divorced their current spouse, and after a "decent" interval, they got married.  This might have been great for them, but it was absolutely NOT great for their families.

 

If there had been a policy in place at that time that such couples be married to each other, this would likely have never happened.

 

Avoiding problems is the name of the game.  People get themselves in enough trouble by intention.  It is certainly not a bad thing to keep them from happening by accident.

Which is why I wouldn't want my teenage daughter talking about sexual matters behind closed doors with an adult male.

[Storm Rider]

I am getting the impression that sexual topics are so devastating that it is impossible to talk about from any perspective in a religious context.  Sexuality is so damaging and adults and young people are so incapable of discussing the topic without resulting in horrible experiences.

Exactly where do your children grow up and how in the heck have each of you protected them from television, radio, social media, advertising, friends, magazines, and every form of media?  You do get that the puritanical pilgrims have nothing over you guys, right?  

 

I don't think bishops are asked to address masturbation unless the teenager asks or brings it up.  However, masturbation is a valid topic in lessons about sexuality.  

 

Thank God that my folks were so good about talking about anything at the dinner table.  We talked about everything; each of the seven children could ask anything and did.  Hells-bells, nothing was too embarrassing to discuss.  Each of you need to be talking about these topics in ways so that each child understands a proper context and what is acceptable and what is not.  Bishop, smishop - the world is scary when we don't talk about things with our kids and they learn about it from the wrong sources, which they will do regardless of your desires. 

[Scott Lloyd]

When that occurs the end of the repentance process through priesthood leaders is dead and the membership will be left to their own devices.  

 

It is interesting how much life changes when humans remove themselves from living in nature to living in concrete jungles with no knowledge of how nature lives.  Much of this is prudishness parading as holiness. Granted there are examples, the rare exceptions, where stupid humans do stupid things. However, it is the vast majority of priesthood interviews that assist individuals gain the clear conscience that results from complete repentance.  Being able to put the sin behind them rather than weigh on their hearts for far too long. 

 

I detest the hyper-protective parent cannot allow a child to fall, to touch the earth, or to experience pain.  This is not love, it is not healthy; it is shortsighted, ignorance run amok.  The same can be said for this situation. People have lost all understanding of priorities or the end goal.  

 

 

I wish I could give you a dozen or more rep points for this.

I'll give one to him in your and my behalf -- and another to you.

[Pahoran]

Wow! In an entire paragraph, you managed to avoid even ONE substantive criticism of Dehlin's actual proposal. Instead, it was all ad hominem all the time. And given how well the last Dehlin ad hominem fest turned out, I would have thought that the apologists would start taking a different tact. Silly me!

What "last Dehlin ad hominem fest" was that?

And how do you think it turned out?

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited May 4, 2014 by Pahoran

[mormonnewb]

What "last Dehlin ad hominem fest" was that?

And how do you think it turned out?

Regards,

Pahoran

http://thestudentreview.org/controversy-over-dismissal-of-byu-professor/

[Calm]

You buy into the myth that Dehlin had a major impact on that then?

[Tacenda]

This is how much I know, can all ages confess to the Priest in the Catholic faith?  Or is there an age limit?  How about other faiths, how does that take place?  I'm thinking the Evangelicals don't have confessionals with clergy, but could be wrong.  And they do emphasize a personal relationship with the Lord, so they may just have that confession to worry about.   

[Bikeemikey]

This is how much I know, can all ages confess to the Priest in the Catholic faith? Or is there an age limit? How about other faiths, how does that take place? I'm thinking the Evangelicals don't have confessionals with clergy, but could be wrong. And they do emphasize a personal relationship with the Lord, so they may just have that confession to worry about.

I would also be interested in the answers to these questions.

[why me]

I don't see that anyone is stressing the bishop when it comes to contact with children (and I include teenagers) what people seem to object to is the content of the conversation and the seclusion in which they are held. From what I've read the percentage of Catholic priests who abused children is consistent with the percentage of abusers in any other occupation.

The priest abuse with children did not occur in the confession process but rather with priests who were working with youths. This is much different than an interview with a lds bishop. It is the ability of being alone with the person at different times of the day to get their trust.

Edited May 4, 2014 by why me

[mormonnewb]

You buy into the myth that Dehlin had a major impact on that then?

I have NO knowledge as to how things work in the world of LDS apologetics, but I do know that "changes were made" around the time of the planned publication of the Dehlin "feature." That being said, it is my hope that the Church realized that ad hominem attacks by those who seek to defend it are counterproductive.

And yes, I realize the irony of ME accusing others of "not playing nice." However. since I have no connection with the Church, BYU or even reality, it's a [saint] of different color, so to speak.

[Yirgacheffe]

The priest abuse with children did not occur in the confession process but rather with priests who were working with youths. This is much different than an interview with a lds bishop. It is the ability of being alone with the person at different times of the day to get their trust.

And if the interview discovers sexual activity there won't be private contact with the bishop at different times of the day to work through their issues? It's the same opportunity that the priests took advantage of and the same percentage of abusers exists in the LDS pool as the priest pool and the rest of society.

[why me]

In our ward a few years ago, two married people (not married to each other) were chosen to be mom and dad leaders in one of those Handcart Company thingamabobs they have our youth go through.  Well, guess what happened?  No, not that right away.  Instead these two, who had previously been acquainted but not friends, found that they enjoyed each other's company.  Well, push came to shove, and about a year later they each divorced their current spouse, and after a "decent" interval, they got married.  This might have been great for them, but it was absolutely NOT great for their families.

 

If there had been a policy in place at that time that such couples be married to each other, this would likely have never happened.

 

Avoiding problems is the name of the game.  People get themselves in enough trouble by intention.  It is certainly not a bad thing to keep them from happening by accident.

What is interesting about this is the ordain women's movement. If women were ordained into the priesthood that would mean that women bishops could have counselors that were men and men could have women counselors. Not to mention coed hometeacher companions. It would be interesting just how it would all work out if it did happen.