Top Ten Things I Love About Not Being A Mormon Anymore: A Response

[Bernard Gui]

For instance, if this Church started setting "guidelines" for how often married couples should be intimate (with each other), that would be CONTROLLING. It wouldn't matter if we all ignored the Church.

Now, obviously the Church hasn't gone that far, but I do see how a reasonable person might find the Church to be "controlling" in some aspects. And I imagine you'd feel the same way if your hypothetical gun club were to, say, pick out your underwear for you. You could ignore them and wear a leopard print speedo if you want, but you might resent that they had the nerve to make the request in the first place.

We are in total agreement....however, I object when such guidelines are misrepresented, as is the case here.

 

For example, the club may have restrictions on members who have criminal backgrounds, especially if they

involved illegal use of firearms. Now I may have a couple of friends who don't meet the club's criteria in this regard.

So, I bring them to the range, and the range officer may say, "No, they can't shoot here." I can get bent out of shape,

call him unreasonable even though he was simply following club guidelines, throw a fit, stomp out of the range, and quit the club. It would be dishonest then to claim publicly that the club controls who my friends are and with whom I can associate. Without knowing the context of my complaint and basing their thoughts on my disinformation, non-members could easily form negative opinions about the club.

 

I can ignore the rules if I wish, but I have control of my own choices and actions....not the club. 

Edited April 23, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Show me a christian faith that allows for a free for all and anarchy in how to do life and I will eat my cowboy boots. All faiths require their flock to obey god's commandemts and to live mindful of sin. Do you know an EV faith that allows an eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we may die but are saved anyway attitude? If one goes to bible study one has the opportunity for control.

Indeed. But let's not limit it to religious organizations. Any organization will have guidelines, rules, procedures, limits on behavior, standards, expectations, etc. That's the nature of people of like mind getting together to accomplish something. Even my favorite organization, The Society for Creative Anachronism, has guidelines. One would think this is a free-wheeling kind of group, but by joining, one agrees to do certain things and behave in certain ways, and one is always free to leave. It's the way things work in this world.

 

http://welcome.sca.org

Edited April 23, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

Show me a christian faith that allows for a free for all and anarchy in how to do life and I will eat my cowboy boots. All faiths require their flock to obey god's commandemts and to live mindful of sin. Do you know an EV faith that allows an eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we may die but are saved anyway attitude? If one goes to bible study one has the opportunity for control.

Please show me a religion that asks for what the LDS church does, CFR hasn't been met, for me anyway.  

 

Required for a TR, is living the WoW & paying 10% tithing among others.  The church asks for service in callings, VT'ng & HT'ng included, & weekly attendance (TR questions), no earrings for men and only one pair for women, no tattoos, clothing covering the shoulders, and recently...who you shouldn't or associate with apparently. 

 

Just give me one "Christian" church that asks for these things or requires specific things, that are even close to these, then I'll shut my mouth.        

[The Nehor]

Please show me a religion that asks for what the LDS church does, CFR hasn't been met, for me anyway.  

 

Required for a TR, is living the WoW & paying 10% tithing among others.  The church asks for service in callings, VT'ng & HT'ng included, & weekly attendance (TR questions), no earrings for men and only one pair for women, no tattoos, clothing covering the shoulders, and recently...who you shouldn't or associate with apparently. 

 

Just give me one "Christian" church that asks for these things or requires specific things, that are even close to these, then I'll shut my mouth.        

 

None, and if you prefer an easier faith they are out there. We are shooting for godhood and exaltation. The requirements are rather intense. You lose the reward if you make the test easier. If you find it too difficult I recommend the Terrestrial kingdom. It's nice.

[Tacenda]

None, and if you prefer an easier faith they are out there. We are shooting for godhood and exaltation. The requirements are rather intense. You lose the reward if you make the test easier. If you find it too difficult I recommend the Terrestrial kingdom. It's nice.

Exactly....so let this woman be on her way. ETA:  This woman's take on the church and it's general guidelines may have been different than Bernard's view of the guidelines.  Some that leave the church took everything the church says, very seriously.  Probably didn't help them and created major burn out. 

Edited April 23, 2014 by Tacenda

[Bernard Gui]

Please show me a religion that asks for what the LDS church does, CFR hasn't been met, for me anyway.  

 

Required for a TR, is living the WoW & paying 10% tithing among others.  The church asks for service in callings, VT'ng & HT'ng included, & weekly attendance (TR questions), no earrings for men and only one pair for women, no tattoos, clothing covering the shoulders, and recently...who you shouldn't or associate with apparently. 

 

Just give me one "Christian" church that asks for these things or requires specific things, that are even close to these, then I'll shut my mouth.        

 

http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/

http://calvarychapel.com/resources/article/view/4-ideas-for-family-ministry-in-your-church/

http://missionarybaptistchurches.com/beliefs.html

 

 

Missionary Baptist Church Covenent

Having been led, as we believe, by the Spirit of God to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour, and on

the profession of our faith, having been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, we

do now in the presence of God, angels, and this assembly, most solemnly and joyfully enter into covenant with one

another, as one body in Christ. 

We engage therefore, by the aid of the Holy Spirit, to walk together in Christian love; to strive for the

advancement of this church in knowledge, holiness, and comfort; to promote its prosperity and spirituality to sustain

its worship, ordinances, discipline, and doctrine; to contribute cheerfully and regularly to the support of the ministry,

the expenses of the church, the relief of the poor, and the spread of the gospel through all nations. 

We also engage to maintain family and secret devotion; to religiously educate our children; to seek the

salvation of our kindred and acquaintances; to walk circumspectly in the world; to be just in our dealings, faithful in

our engagement, and exemplary in our deportment; to avoid all tattling, backbiting, and excessive anger; to abstain

from the sale and use of intoxicating drinks as a beverage, and to be zealous in our efforts to advance the kingdom of

our Saviour. 

We further engage to watch over one another in brotherly love; to remember each other in prayer; to aid

each other in sickness and distress; to cultivate Christian sympathy in feeling and courtesy in speech; to be slow to

take offense, but always ready for reconciliation, and mindful of the rules of our Saviour to secure it without delay. 

We moreover engage that when we remove from this place, we will as soon as possible unite with some other

church, where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant and the principles of God's Word.

 

 

 

It should also be noted that the Mormon Church has a lay priesthood, while most other Christian churches have

professional ministries. There certainly are strict requirements for men/women who seek pastorship in most churches.

 

http://work.chron.com/catholic-priest-requirements-4196.html

 

 

Faith

Catholic priests must be committed to the Catholic faith and feel called into the priesthood. If you feel called to the priesthood, you will go through extensive counseling, prayer and training to be sure you are hearing God's call. As priests progress through seminary and other training, they are expected to become even stronger in the demonstration of their faith, knowing the rituals, routines and prayers that are common to the faith. They must also take a vow of celibacy as a sign of their commitment to God. The only exception to the vow of celibacy is men who are married before becoming Catholic priests.

Education and Training

To become a Catholic priest, you must have at least a bachelor's degree, preferably in a field such as religious studies or philosophy, and pursue a graduate degree from a Catholic seminary. During seminary many prospective priests complete a pastoral year where they are assigned to a seminary and learn what it is like to become a Catholic priest. As part of seminary, priests take courses in biblical theology, philosophy, liturgy, prayer and counseling. Before becoming fully ordained into the priesthood, prospective priests must perform practice masses and other Catholic ceremonies to demonstrate their knowledge and abilities.

Personal Life

While some Catholic denominations accept married priests, most require priests to be unmarried and do not allow them to marry once they become priests. Likewise, married priests who become widowed are not allowed to remarry. Married or unmarried, priests are expected to dedicate their lives to God and the Catholic faith. This means leading mass, performing other religious ceremonies and spending time counseling members of the parish. A priest's personal life is under constant scrutiny by the diocese and members of the parish. In some cases, every word and action is analyzed with regard to the Catholic faith. Priests must be aware of their actions and avoid visiting people and places who could cause controversy or expressing opinions that might not be in line with the Catholic faith.

Other Requirements

To be a Catholic priest, you must be a male, although a few denominations allow women to become priests. Prospective priests must also have been practicing Catholics for at least five years and have been active participants in a local parish for at least two years. Your local parish and diocese play a large role in determining whether you will even attend seminary. Prospective priests can be rejected for a criminal past, speech impediments, physical deformities and disagreements with bishops and other heads in the church.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

Bernared

 

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Become-one-of-Jehovah's-Witnesses

http://calvarychapel.com/resources/article/view/4-ideas-for-family-ministry-in-your-church/

http://missionarybaptistchurches.com/beliefs.html

 

 

 

 

It should also be noted that the Mormon Church has a lay priesthood, while most other Christian churches have

professional ministries. There certainly are strict requirements for men/women who seek pastorship in most churches.

 

http://work.chron.com/catholic-priest-requirements-4196.html

 

 

 

 

You haven't shown one thing close to our guidelines.  Mostly the requirements are Jesus related or more specific guidelines for a Catholic Priest.  You haven't shown one church that is about tithing requirements for a TR, clothing & jewelry guidelines, though wearing garments is a requirement for a TR, food & drink guidelines and again, a requirement for a TR.  Thanks for the effort, but surprised you listed the JW's, the link didn't work anyway. Or maybe I missed something.    

[Damien the Leper]

This sounds like it should be more of a personal journal entry rather than a blog post. I don't know that I see any real self actualization coming from her comments. If nothing more, they are static and polarizing to me.

[bluebell]

Bernared

 

You haven't shown one thing close to our guidelines.  Mostly the requirements are Jesus related or more specific guidelines for a Catholic Priest.  You haven't shown one church that is about tithing requirements for a TR, clothing & jewelry guidelines, though wearing garments is a requirement for a TR, food & drink guidelines and again, a requirement for a TR.  Thanks for the effort, but surprised you listed the JW's, the link didn't work anyway. Or maybe I missed something.    

 

To be fair Tacenda, we are the only Christian church that has temples and uses them in the way that we do.  If you are demanding someone give you references for what is required to be a member of a church that match the requirements for having a temple recommend in our church, you are asking for something that doesn't exist since no one else has temples.

 

You are trying to compare being a member of another Christian church to being able to attend the temple in the LDS church.  Those are completely unfair and unequal comparisons.  It's like trying to compare the requirements for getting an Bachelors degree with the requirements for getting a doctorate-they will never be the same because they aren't the same thing.  

 

One is much more stringent, time consuming, and requires much more dedication than the other because one encompasses everything that is required for the Bachelors and then adds more requirements on as well in order that a higher level of knowledge and commitment may be attained. 

[Tacenda]

To be fair Tacenda, we are the only Christian church that has temples and uses them in the way that we do.  If you are demanding someone give you references for what is required to be a member of a church that match the requirements for having a temple recommend in our church, you are asking for something that doesn't exist since no one else has temples.

 

You are trying to compare being a member of another Christian church to being able to attend the temple in the LDS church.  Those are completely unfair and unequal comparisons.  It's like trying to compare the requirements for getting an Bachelors degree with the requirements for getting a doctorate-they will never be the same because they aren't the same thing.  

 

One is much more stringent, time consuming, and requires much more dedication than the other because one encompasses everything that is required for the Bachelors and then adds more requirements on as well in order that a higher level of knowledge and commitment may be attained. 

Ok, delete the Temple requirements.  There are still some general guidelines that may be like doctrine, or as some would have us believe, everything in conference is doctrine and is put in our church publications, for instance the earring and tattoo guideline from Pres. Hinckley.  Or the covering of the shoulders and stories, in the Friend magazine.  Or the covering of angels shoulders in a church magazine, seems to be important for our shoulders not be shown, if they change a famous artist's rendition of angels.  So when one doesn't follow these, I'm sure the elect or the staunch would have issues with it.  Hopefully, these issues will go away, but it's not my call to make.     

[california boy]

I have no idea why someone would take such advice so personal. The way to view such advice is to correlate it to the 'opinion bin'. It really doesn't matter what the bishop or SP thinks on this matter. Of course, if your gay friends were hanging out in gay bath houses where sexual romps take place as they did the 70s, or in gay bars looking for a pickup, I can understand their advice. Such advice would be given to heteros too: stay away from bars, swing joints etc. So, you will need to clarify when this was. For example, in the crazy 70s when gay men were foot loose and fancy free ( I hung out in Geenwich Village in the 70s and so I know what I am talking about) or in the 21st century. And you will need to clarify what kind of friends you were hanging out with.

 

But it is just an opinion that you were given because they were concerned about you.

 

Well I have to say, I took their words very seriously.  I was close friends with the stake president.  We used to do a lot of biking together.  He is a great guy, and I felt like he was trying to be honest with me in giving me the churches position on this issue.  I asked him some very indepth questions about this poiicy.  Could I live with another gay man as long as we didn't have sex.  No.  Could I live with a woman then obviously we wouldn't be having sex.  No.  So what were my options?  He said we have to avoid the very apperance of evil, and that my only option was to live alone the rest of my life.  I asked him if I could date or at least go to the movies with a gay man.  Again the answer was no.  Too much temptation.  This wasn't presented to me as his opinion.  But who knows.  I certainly have talked to other former gay Mormons and their stories were similar.  It certainly is in parallel with the article about the guy that got fired.  

 

This was such a serious issue for me, and the thought of being alone for the rest of my life was a deal breaker for me.  While it wasn't the only reason I ended up leaving the church, it certainly was one of the major reasons.  And in the end, it ended up being the best decison for me.  Oddly enough, being celibate the rest of my life was something I would have at least tried as an option if there was some companionship that could be a part of that.

 

So in answer to your question, this was in around 2000.  Had nothing to do with bath houses and orgies.  I just wanted companionship.

[bluebell]

Ok, delete the Temple requirements.  There are still some general guidelines that may be like doctrine, or as some would have us believe, everything in conference is doctrine and is put in our church publications, for instance the earring and tattoo guideline from Pres. Hinckley.  Or the covering of the shoulders and stories, in the Friend magazine.  Or the covering of angels shoulders in a church magazine, seems to be important for our shoulders not be shown, if they change a famous artist's rendition of angels.  So when one doesn't follow these, I'm sure the elect or the staunch would have issues with it.  Hopefully, these issues will go away, but it's not my call to make.     

 

I think you might be confusing standards with requirements.

 

Every Christian church has standards that it teaches to it's members that it knows not every member is going to follow, or even want to follow.  Most churches (if they are worth anything, in my opinion) set the bar high enough that people have to strive to live a specific lifestyle-one that different than the lifestyles of those who don't call themselves followers of Christ.  The bar is not set so high though that imperfect people with real weaknesses aren't welcome or encouraged to come and fellowship.  

 

Teaching members of a church about the ideal, and asking them to strive for it, is not anti-Christian.  Neither is it the same as requiring them to do it.

 

Leaving out churches though, i think it's also important to remember that Jesus Himself set some very high standards when He knew that the person He was speaking with needed to be pushed to the next level.  He required the rich young man to give up all of his money, for example.  The man was already following all the commandments, but that wasn't enough because the Savior knew the young man's heart was still not where it needed to be to gain eternal life.

 

He also once forbid a man from going to attend to the funeral of his immediate family, telling him instead that if he did not follow Him right then, he was not fit for the kingdom of God.  I have no doubt that many would have judged Jesus very harsh for such a statement (and probably would have labeled Him "unchristian" if the term had be around back then    ) 

 

Clearly, harsh requirements for eternal life are not unprecedented in the gospel that Jesus Himself taught.  That doesn't mean that the Gospel must be difficult, but it does mean that we can't shy away from something or call it unchristian just because it seems harsh or difficult to us.

[california boy]

I didn't CFR your other points of disinformation because I know what you were referring to.

For example, if you claim the Church does not allow men to wear colored shirts, the reader will

recoil in shock. "They even tell you what color of shirts to wear! How horrible!" By leaving

out the caveat that the Church recommends Aaronic Priesthood boys wear white shirts when

they administer and pass the sacrament, you have created disinformation about what the

Church actually does. The same is true about each of your points. If your purpose is to

create shock and bias the reader, that is the way to do it...use partial truths out of context

or without explanation. 

Well I feel like you are distorting what I originally commented on.  I want to say first that I grew up in the church and the restrictions that I listed were never a big deal to me (except the not being allowed to associate with other gay men). I wrote that list to a MORMON blog.  By far, the majority of the people on this blog are very familiar with how those restrictions work.  Yes I could have gone through each one of them and explained why I listed them.  But like you, I think most people on this blog understood exactly what I met.  

 

The point of me posting the list is to help some realize that yes indeed, the church does exert a lot of control, sometimes in areas that don't really seem to be a religious or righteous area, (such as beards, tattoos and piercings as I mentioned earlier).  I actually don't understand the spiritual nature of a lot of the rules in the church.  But when you are a member, these rules in context is what you sign up for.  For some people, the church is just too controlling.  For others, they like the narrowly defined rules.  I can certainly understand someone leaving the church and feeling like they can breath again.  While the specific blog quoted is, in my opinion. a bit childish, the reasons for prompting such a blog is very real for some people.  I am glad you accept that.  And I also accept that.  Not a big deal.

[seriously honestly]

So, if one can freely choose not to follow guidelines or counsel or rules or whatever, then one is not controlled by the organization that supports them.

Then why do converts have to give up coffee and tea before they can get baptised?  What do you think the response from other members or anyone is an authoritative position in the church would be to a memeber who decided they were going to drink coffee and get a tattoo and/or have multiple piercings? What do you think the LDS church would do if a growing number of members decided there were going to do those things?

[why me]

 

This was such a serious issue for me, and the thought of being alone for the rest of my life was a deal breaker for me.  While it wasn't the only reason I ended up leaving the church, it certainly was one of the major reasons.  And in the end, it ended up being the best decison for me.  Oddly enough, being celibate the rest of my life was something I would have at least tried as an option if there was some companionship that could be a part of that.

 

So in answer to your question, this was in around 2000.  Had nothing to do with bath houses and orgies.  I just wanted companionship.

I would never allow one individual so much power over me. They are just bishops and SPs, spirit beings on a human journey. Why would I let such people control my decisions about staying in or out of the church? Also, something is strange about your story. There are guys who are roommates all the time in the church. What would be the difference between two hetero guys and two gay guys that are friends? Not much.

 

The truth claims about the lds church are more than an opinion of a bishop or SP. It is about the book of mormon and the witnesses to that book. Let me put it this way: if I went to see a catholic priest and I think that he gave me wrong advice, would I leave the catholic church? No. The catholic church is larger than a few catholic priests.Likewise for the lds church.

[why me]

Indeed. But let's not limit it to religious organizations. Any organization will have guidelines, rules, procedures, limits on behavior, standards, expectations, etc. That's the nature of people of like mind getting together to accomplish something. Even my favorite organization, The Society for Creative Anachronism, has guidelines. One would think this is a free-wheeling kind of group, but by joining, one agrees to do certain things and behave in certain ways, and one is always free to leave. It's the way things work in this world.

 

http://welcome.sca.org

This is why I think that Tacenda's argument is a bad one. It makes no sense at all. I haven't seen a single church that is run without rules. I have this feeling that she actually believes that EV churches have no rules because they are all saved by grace. Far from it. One just needs to attend a bible study to find that rules are all over the place in such churches.

[why me]

Please show me a religion that asks for what the LDS church does, CFR hasn't been met, for me anyway.  

 

Required for a TR, is living the WoW & paying 10% tithing among others.  The church asks for service in callings, VT'ng & HT'ng included, & weekly attendance (TR questions), no earrings for men and only one pair for women, no tattoos, clothing covering the shoulders, and recently...who you shouldn't or associate with apparently. 

 

Just give me one "Christian" church that asks for these things or requires specific things, that are even close to these, then I'll shut my mouth.        

The catholic church requires its members to attend mass every sunday. If one doesn't it is a sin. The catholic church also requires it members to attend mass on days of obligation. If a catholic skips such a mass, it is a sin. Also, catholics should pray the rosary, go on retreats and attend adorations etc. Plus, if one commits a mortal sin or a lesser sin, one should go to confession.

 

When I was a boy, I could not eat meat on a Friday because it was forbidden in the catholic faith. So, friday was a good ol' scotish Fish and Chips with vinegar on the chips. What more can I say? Also, many EV churches preach chasity and tithing. True, there are some cotton candy churches where the topic of sin is avoided but...most churches required the living of certain standards.

 

http://catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=3026

 

However, I am thinking of joining the lutherans...if only the lds church would make such a decision about chasity....However, the lutheran church is losing members by the tens of thousands throughout the world. People see no reason to be a member of a church that succumbs to the world.

 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/evangelical_lutheran_church_backs_away_from_christian_chastity/

Edited April 23, 2014 by why me

[seriously honestly]

 There are guys who are roommates all the time in the church. What would be the difference between two hetero guys and two gay guys that are friends? Not much.

 

Two gay guys that are friends living together would be like a guy and a girl that are just friends living together. The temptation of sleeping with eachother could arise in those situations.

[why me]

Two gay guys that are friends living together would be like a guy and a girl that are just friends living together. The temptation of sleeping with eachother could arise in those situations.

Not really. If a guy is not attracted to the woman and the woman is not attracted to the guy they can live platonically without problem. Gay guys are no different.

[Senator]

Not really. If a guy is not attracted to the woman and the woman is not attracted to the guy they can live platonically without problem. Gay guys are no different.

 

Not if they're active members of the church.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Senator

[seriously honestly]

Not really. If a guy is not attracted to the woman and the woman is not attracted to the guy they can live platonically without problem. Gay guys are no different.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible, but would the church allow its members to do that?

Edited April 23, 2014 by seriously honestly

[bluebell]

I'm not saying it's impossible, but would the church allow its members to do that?

 

Yes.

 

A church school wouldn't as it would violate the honor code, but as for the church itself, being roommates with someone isn't considered a sin.

 

Now, if it was someone you were sexually attracted too, or had had a physical relationship with in the past (such as an ex-boyfriend or girlfriend) and especially if you were in the process of repenting of such sins, the bishop would probably have some words with you about it, and might ask that you find another place to live as part of the repentance process.

 

But being roommates with someone of the opposite sex isn't going to get you kicked out of the church in general.

[Senator]

Yes.

 

A church school wouldn't as it would violate the honor code, but as for the church itself, being roommates with someone isn't considered a sin.

 

Now, if it was someone you were sexually attracted too, or had had a physical relationship with in the past (such as an ex-boyfriend or girlfriend) and especially if you were in the process of repenting of such sins, the bishop would probably have some words with you about it, and might ask that you find another place to live as part of the repentance process.

 

But being roommates with someone of the opposite sex isn't going to get you kicked out of the church in general.

 

Yeah, you can get a talkin too even if there was no repentance or relationship issues.  My daughter was temporarily living with a married couple and was directed to move out. 

[why me]

Yeah, you can get a talkin too even if there was no repentance or relationship issues.  My daughter was temporarily living with a married couple and was directed to move out.

Not my daughter. No problem living with a married couple. Thus, the polices are arbitrary. And this is why I wouldn't listen to any bishop and SP with such advice as given to the gay man.

[Senator]

Not my daughter. No problem living with a married couple. Thus, the polices are arbitrary. And this is why I wouldn't listen to any bishop and SP with such advice as given to the gay man.

 

Again, easy for you to say.