Top Ten Things I Love About Not Being A Mormon Anymore: A Response

[bluebell]

Yeah, you can get a talkin too even if there was no repentance or relationship issues.  My daughter was temporarily living with a married couple and was directed to move out. 

 

I would imagine that was a fairly rare exception. 

 

I have known a few single people who have lived with a married couple (such as in college-no relation to each other) and it has never been a problem for any of them.

 

But people will always exist who get a little nuts about this kind of stuff.  It would have been interesting to see what he would have done had she refused, since technically, there really isn't anything he could have done.

 

But that's just the rebel in me talking...  

[mormonnewb]

This is why I think that Tacenda's argument is a bad one. It makes no sense at all. I haven't seen a single church that is run without rules. I have this feeling that she actually believes that EV churches have no rules because they are all saved by grace. Far from it. One just needs to attend a bible study to find that rules are all over the place in such churches.

I've been to my fair share of churches and none were even REMOTELY as demanding as the LDS Church. All Churches (at least good ones) have standards on how one should live a Christian life but they don't extend to the most minor of details. To my knowledge, no mainline Protestant church asks you to promise to wear specific undergarments and condition your eternal salvation on wearing them.

Back to the gun club analogy, the club is within reason to have rules that affect your behavior in and around the club. However, if the gun club started telling you what music to listen to and what movies to watch in your home, most people would say, "That's too much."

I imagine that the church would say that there is no aspect of a member's life that is not within it's purview. And that might be fine for most members. But I certainly understand the person who says, "That's too much!"

[changed]

I've been to my fair share of churches and none were even REMOTELY as demanding as the LDS Church.

You have not spent much time in the middle east, have you?... or met too many Catholics from South America... come to think of it, our baptist next door neighbors do more than we do... 

Edited April 23, 2014 by changed

[california boy]

I would never allow one individual so much power over me. They are just bishops and SPs, spirit beings on a human journey. Why would I let such people control my decisions about staying in or out of the church? Also, something is strange about your story. There are guys who are roommates all the time in the church. What would be the difference between two hetero guys and two gay guys that are friends? Not much.

 

The truth claims about the lds church are more than an opinion of a bishop or SP. It is about the book of mormon and the witnesses to that book. Let me put it this way: if I went to see a catholic priest and I think that he gave me wrong advice, would I leave the catholic church? No. The catholic church is larger than a few catholic priests.Likewise for the lds church.

 

I guess I trusted my stake president in his calling as well as a friend.  I didn't think he was telling me this to make my life miserable.  And I also heard the same thing from my bishop.  I don't really question them in the counsel they gave me.  What they said is that single adults of opposite sex are also told to not live together.  The same standards would apply to two gay men.  It seemed reasonable to me.  

 

And like I said, it is only part of the reason why I decided to leave the church.  The other part was the fact that I had no desire to be married to a woman for eternity.  So the end goal really isn't something that interested me.

 

You also have to realize that the church has moved quite a bit in the past 14 years.  Their attitudes towards gays is much different back then than it is today.  So don't be to harsh on my stake president.  I am sure he was doing what he thought was right.  I really don't know whether the church has a specific policy on this issue.  Does anyone?  Anything in the handbook?  Because it seems like a pretty common direction church leaders take.  What I do know, is that I am not the only person given that counsel.

[Bernard Gui]

Bernared

 

You haven't shown one thing close to our guidelines.  Mostly the requirements are Jesus related or more specific guidelines for a Catholic Priest.  You haven't shown one church that is about tithing requirements for a TR, clothing & jewelry guidelines, though wearing garments is a requirement for a TR, food & drink guidelines and again, a requirement for a TR.  Thanks for the effort, but surprised you listed the JW's, the link didn't work anyway. Or maybe I missed something.    

Try the JW link again. And reread the Missionary Baptist instructions. And note that the LDS church has a lay priesthood, so it is valid to compare requirements for LDS priesthood holders with Catholic priests and Protestant ministers.

 

And see my post below about the New Testament Christian Church whose world headquarters

are next to our stake center.

 

You are indeed missing something.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Then why do converts have to give up coffee and tea before they can get baptised?  What do you think the response from other members or anyone is an authoritative position in the church would be to a memeber who decided they were going to drink coffee and get a tattoo and/or have multiple piercings? What do you think the LDS church would do if a growing number of members decided there were going to do those things?

The convert chooses of her own free will to give up coffee and tea, and whatever else, before baptism. 

 

Other members might look askance, or express disappointment, or say, "That tatt looks cool," or ask why they did it, or make some sort of inappropriately rude remark, or if the tatts are really offensive and the piercings over the top, maybe release the person from a calling, but I'm sure no harm would come to the member who drinks coffee or gets a tattoo or multiple piercings.

 

There's not much the Church can do other than 1)withdraw the counsel and it's attendant blessings for obedience or 2)withdraw fellowship from the defiant. 

 

D&C 134: 10 We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.

 

Edited April 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Yes.

 

A church school wouldn't as it would violate the honor code, but as for the church itself, being roommates with someone isn't considered a sin.

 

Now, if it was someone you were sexually attracted too, or had had a physical relationship with in the past (such as an ex-boyfriend or girlfriend) and especially if you were in the process of repenting of such sins, the bishop would probably have some words with you about it, and might ask that you find another place to live as part of the repentance process.

 

But being roommates with someone of the opposite sex isn't going to get you kicked out of the church in general.

I home teach 2 sisters who have male "roommates" that share houses but not beds. They are not attracted

in any way to them and pretty much live their own separate lives. In both cases it is a matter of economics.

Neither has been disciplined by the Church, by the way.

[Bernard Gui]

You have not spent much time in the middle east, have you?... or met too many Catholics from South America... come to think of it, our baptist next door neighbors do more than we do... 

We may indulge in a little hypocrisy by criticizing our Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters, but they have

a lot of demands placed on them. Just down the road is the New Testament Christian Church world headquarters.

 

Their people have a set strict standard of dress and comportment. It's easy to spot them in Walmart on Saturday

nights when they do their shopping.

 

http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/09/19/the-new-testament-christian-church-of-graham-an-overview-2/

 

Granted, this is a hostile article and the description of life within the church relies heavily on disgruntled members...

 

However, Tacenda's CFR is more than adequately answered here in this article. This makes the LDS Church

look like the Universalist Unitarians.

 

What the preachers tell their congregations can be disarming: women must wear dresses, can not wear make-up, and must let their hair grow long.  If they are married, women are prohibited from working. 

Building upon this, women are not allowed to run a ministry, even if they are ordained at the NTCC’s Bible Seminary, which Pastor Kinson acknowledges is a “highly-charged issue.”

Coupled with this is a rigid control of relations between men and women, especially courtship.  Many ex-members describe a system whereby a young man wanting to date a woman would first have to ask permission of Rev. Davis during a public fellowship service.  If Davis approved, he would then move to the women’s section and ask the young woman if she would like to court the man.  If she concurred, then the couple could “sit along the wall,” in pre-arranged chairs and chat.  In addition, they were forbidden to meet outside of this time, although they would eventually be permitted to go on a date with a chaperone.

One ex-minister, Vic Johanson, said that when he married his wife, a fellow member of NTCC, they had never kissed nor held hands.

As a result, many ex-ers, as former members call themselves, report the NTCC is filled with troubled marriages.

Social activities are also controlled.  Sports are discouraged if not banned outright, as ministers extol their members to spend the time more productively in prayer or other service to God.  Simple gatherings can be severely restricted, as well.  Ex-er Tracey Pelfrey declared that she had to ask Davis for permission to have children come to her daughter’s birthday party. Davis allowed two guests and the birthday girl’s sister, but no others.

Pelfrey also said that she had to ask Davis for permission to visit a sick relative, and she described the negotiation as nerve-wracking.

Even the simple joys of life are restricted.  For a long period of time, watching television was banned and was called “devil-vision,” and the Internet was forbidden and labeled the “sinner-net.”

Pastor Kekel, who is also the church’s CEO, says many of these restrictions have been loosened in recent years and the use of computers is now commonplace.  Nevertheless, controlling practices still linger.

In addition, intense financial pressures are exerted upon members, who are expected to tithe ten percent of their income to the church along with “giving ‘til it hurts,” as one ex-er described, in special collections for construction projects and missionary programs.

More troubling though is bullying from the pulpit.  Any perceived transgressions in members’ behavior can be cited during services, which many report as humiliating.

Further, when an individual leaves the church they are shunned by the membership, thus losing a lifetime of friends and relationships.

When members have questioned these practices, ex-ers say they received a biblical tirade or were told they were “in rebellion.”  Oftentimes, though, they were ignored.

 

 

In fairness, one should also look at the church's own website:

 

http://www.myntcc.org

Edited April 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

I home teach 2 sisters who have male "roommates" that share houses but not beds. They are not attracted

in any way to them and pretty much live their own separate lives. In both cases it is a matter of economics.

Neither has been disciplined by the Church, by the way.

I don't think that anyone is saying they would be excommunicated for living with guys.  No one is saying the church is the only religion that tried to control it's members.  No one is stating that the church takes away someone's free agency.  That is not the kind of control we are talking about here.  Or at least I am talking about here.   But I doubt very much that they would be called to be Relief Society president or Young Woman's advisor.  I think if you were to be honest about this, you would certainly agree that the church discourages these kinds of situations.  

 

As I stated in my original post, some of these issues are commandments, some are  standards, some are strongly worded directives and some are just traditions.  But all of them carry certain expectations.  And there are a lot of areas of your personal life that the church has a stance on what active members do.  To some it can be a bit much.  To others, it is not an issue.  This is not a complicated concept.  Or at least I didn't think it was.

[california boy]

We may indulge in a little hypocrisy by criticizing our Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters, but they have

a lot of demands placed on them. Just down the road is the New Testament Christian Church world headquarters.

 

Their people have a set strict standard of dress and comportment. It's easy to spot them in Walmart on Saturday

nights when they do their shopping.

 

http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/09/19/the-new-testament-christian-church-of-graham-an-overview-2/

 

Granted, this is a hostile article and the description of life within the church relies heavily on disgruntled members...

 

However, Tacenda's CFR is more than adequately answered here in this article. This makes the LDS Church

look like the Universalist Unitarians.

 

 

In fairness, one should also look at the church's own website:

 

http://www.myntcc.org

Would you say this church is controling?  Do you think those who break away may have a sense of being free from an oppressive controling minister?

[Bernard Gui]

I've been to my fair share of churches and none were even REMOTELY as demanding as the LDS Church. All Churches (at least good ones) have standards on how one should live a Christian life but they don't extend to the most minor of details. To my knowledge, no mainline Protestant church asks you to promise to wear specific undergarments and condition your eternal salvation on wearing them.

 

Yes, but mainline Protestant churches have outward attire that is worn by their priests and ministers. It is symbolic and represents authority.

Our priestly attire is worn under our worldly clothing.

[Bernard Gui]

I don't think that anyone is saying they would be excommunicated for living with guys. No one is saying the church is the only religion that tried to control it's members. No one is stating that the church takes away someone's free agency. That is not the kind of control we are talking about here. Or at least I am talking about here. But I doubt very much that they would be called to be Relief Society president or Young Woman's advisor. I think if you were to be honest about this, you would certainly agree that the church discourages these kinds of situations.

As I stated in my original post, some of these issues are commandments, some are standards, some are strongly worded directives and some are just traditions. But all of them carry certain expectations. And there are a lot of areas of your personal life that the church has a stance on what active members do. To some it can be a bit much. To others, it is not an issue. This is not a complicated concept. Or at least I didn't think it was.

Discipline is not limited to excommunication.

I agree we don't have the same concept of what control is.

Since we have God-given free agency and it is the central tenet of our religion upon which everything else is based, by definition the Church cannot "control" us.

There is nothing dishonest in my description of the situation. But to be fair, were they called to a responsible position, they would be asked to change roommates. They are free to reject the request or to accept it. No one will coerce them. One is a primary teacher. The other is homebound.

One cannot live without bumping up against expectations from multiple sources. That is life.

Misrepresenting those expectations, however, is not honest or in good conscience.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Would you say this church is controling?  Do you think those who break away may have a sense of being free from an oppressive controling minister?

You read the article....decide for yourself. I already expressed my opinion.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

You read the article....decide for yourself. I already expressed my opinion.

I read the article, but I didn't read whether you thought that the church you called out was controling or not.  Do you think it is?

 

And yes, I found that church to be a bit controling.

Edited April 24, 2014 by california boy

[Bernard Gui]

I read the article, but I didn't read whether you thought that the church you called out was controling or not. Do you think it is?

And yes, I found that church to be a bit controling.

I was responding to a challenge from Tacenda to find a church that expects as much from its members as we do.

I just had to look down the street to find one since she didn't accept my previous examples.

I think this church's expectations are severe and intrusive, but as is evidenced by the article, people are free to stay or leave..

Controlling? I believe controlling involves threat of violence, force, intimidation, confiscation of property, or any other action that would deprive the member of his free agency. If they engage in those kinds of behavior, they are controlling.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

I was responding to a challenge from Tacenda to find a church that expects as much from its members as we do.

I just had to look down the street to find one since she didn't accept my previous examples.

I think this church's expectations are severe and intrusive, but as is evidenced by the article, people are free to stay or leave..

Controlling? I believe controlling involves threat of violence, force, intimidation, confiscation of property, or any other action that would deprive the member of his free agency. If they engage in those kinds of behavior, they are controlling.

Well there may be the very basis of our different outlook on things.  We should have had this conversation much earlier in the thread.  It is fair to say that people's views of controling differs quite a bit.  So perhaps we can not fault others for having a different perspective of what controling is.

[Tacenda]

We may indulge in a little hypocrisy by criticizing our Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters, but they have

a lot of demands placed on them. Just down the road is the New Testament Christian Church world headquarters.

Their people have a set strict standard of dress and comportment. It's easy to spot them in Walmart on Saturday

nights when they do their shopping.

http://themountainnewswa.net/2011/09/19/the-new-testament-christian-church-of-graham-an-overview-2/

Granted, this is a hostile article and the description of life within the church relies heavily on disgruntled members...

However, Tacenda's CFR is more than adequately answered here in this article. This makes the LDS Church

look like the Universalist Unitarians.

In fairness, one should also look at the church's own website:

http://www.myntcc.org

CFR met! I shut my mouth.

[Senator]

I would imagine that was a fairly rare exception. 

 

I have known a few single people who have lived with a married couple (such as in college-no relation to each other) and it has never been a problem for any of them.

 

But people will always exist who get a little nuts about this kind of stuff.  It would have been interesting to see what he would have done had she refused, since technically, there really isn't anything he could have done.

 

But that's just the rebel in me talking...  

Do you secretly wear a mocking-jay pin?

[Senator]

I home teach 2 sisters who have male "roommates" that share houses but not beds. They are not attracted

in any way to them and pretty much live their own separate lives. In both cases it is a matter of economics.

Neither has been disciplined by the Church, by the way.

May I ask what their ages are?

 

I would imagine this to be a rare situation as well.

[Bernard Gui]

CFR met! I shut my mouth.

Ahhhhh.....the subtle pleasure of small victories!  

[Bernard Gui]

May I ask what their ages are?

 

I would imagine this to be a rare situation as well.

One in her 30s with a teenage son, the other a widow in her 70s and homebound. Yes, unusual, but not unheard of.

We also have the very common practice of LDS young women working as nannies. My daughter Filomena worked for

an LDS couple in Switzerland for a year. 

[Spammer]

For those who may be interested.

 

The LDS church isn't the only Christian church with temples and rules that govern worthiness to be in the temple.  We have temples in Orthodoxy.  Our churches are our temples.  We refer to them as such.  Every church building is patterned after the temple in Jerusalem and our liturgy is based on the liturgy of the first temple, but different in that under the new covenant there is a new liturgy and only one high priest - Jesus.  Our churches are constructed so that we face east when we pray.   There is a veil (the iconostasis) and an open space before the veil where the parishioners, the baptized and anointed members of the Body of Christ - the royal priesthood of all believers, stand to pray.  Behind the veil is the holy of holies and the altar, the place where heaven and earth meet, the place that is simultaneously in time and outside of time.  Each Sunday we stand before God along with the angels and all the saints and worship God, exactly as described in the Revelation of John.  Being worthy to stand before God in his temple alongside the angels and partake of the Holy Eucharist is of paramount concern in Orthodoxy.

 

There are definitely rules that determine personal worthiness to approach Christ Himself in the chalice, but no system is in place for anyone to check up on whether you comply with the rules.   It's entirely up to you to decide whether you're worthy to approach the chalice.  We use the honor system.  At most, when you approach the chalice, if the priest hasn't seen you for a while he might ask you, before giving you the Body and Blood of Christ, if you've been to confession recently.  If not, he'll give you a blessing but will not permit you to receive the Eucharist.  This is for your own spiritual safety.  "Those who eat and drink the body and blood of Christ unworthily eat and drink condemnation to their souls".  Except for that, there are no mechanisms in place to check up on you.  There are no personal priesthood interviews with priesthood leaders, no annual interviews with the bishop or stake president, no temple recommends, no tithing settlement.  The people pay tithes and offerings, but there are no tithing slips or appointments where you're asked whether you contribute to the parish.  Yes, a collection basket is passed around at the end of the liturgy, but the basket is also on a table next to the church's main door so you if you want to be 100% anonymous in your offering you can place it in the basket as you walk in when no one is looking.  "When you pray, shut the door and pray in secret.  When you fast, anoint your head and fast in secret.  Don’t let your right hand know what your left hand is doing".  Among other rules, we're expected to keep a daily prayer rule, attend church on all twelve feast days and attend Saturday evening Vespers (in addition to weekly attendance on Sunday), dress appropriately at church, give alms, observe a strict fast before taking communion (no food or water beginning at midnight on Saturday until we receive the Eucharist on Sunday), and observe the diet restrictions of the other fasting periods in the church, where you're expected to revert to the angelic state of Paradise before the Fall. Basically, you eat like a vegan during each of these fasting periods - 1. Forty days before Easter (the fast of Great Lent); 2. The first two weeks of August (Dormition Fast) 3. Forty days before Christmas (the Nativity Fast); 4. From the second Monday after Pentecost until June 29 (the Apostle's Fast, the length of which varies based on how late in the year Easter falls, from 8 to 42 days in duration); and 5. Every Wednesday and Friday during the week in remembrance of Jesus' betrayal and crucifixion, respectively.  The strictest fasts are the Lenten, Dormition, and the Wednesday and Friday fasts.  You follow a vegan diet and no oil is allowed.  Lots and lots of fasting. 

 

So yea, we have lots of rules, just like Mormonism.  The difference is what I've already described.  No priest or other ecclesiastical leader schedules interviews ask whether you're doing what you're supposed to be doing or whether you think you're worthy to enter the temple.  It's entirely up to you.  You are completely made free in Christ.    Checklists and interviews are old covenant.  It's the approach of the Pharisees.  The rules really aren't even rules in the sense of requirements you must meet to be 'worthy'.  They are all ascetic practices.  Orthodox spirituality is not checklist-based, it's not juridical or forensic.  and every rule is a spiritual aid meant to assist in purifying the inner man, to cleanse the inner vessel, to build a temple where the Holy Spirit can dwell and begin to work on you to transform you bit by bit into a completely new person in Christ, a person who is a Christ-bearer, a person who has acquired the image of God, returned to the Paradise state and loves as God loves.  Keeping all of the rules conscientiously isn't what saves you.  That's the spirituality of the Pharisees.  You can't make yourself holy by keeping rules.  Holiness is not equated with external moral perfection.  You must be made holy through the action of the Spirit before you can dwell in the Kingdom.   The Spirit blows where it wills.  Your job is to prepare the place where the Spirit can dwell.  He will come at God's pleasure and according to His timeline.  You prepare a holy place within you and cooperate with the Spirit when He comes by keeping to the ascetic practices.  It's entirely up to you to decide how clean you want that inner vessel to be.  Breaking fasts, forgetting to pray, skipping church, drinking wine on fast days, or failing to contribute to the community doesn't mean you've broken any commandments.  You haven't sinned.  All you've done is failed avail yourself of the means through which you can acquire the aid of the Holy Spirit in your journey.  Without that, you're left to your own devices as you seek to keep Christ's commands to love God and your neighbor as yourself. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by Spammer

[Bernard Gui]

For those who may be interested.

 

The LDS church isn't the only Christian church with temples and rules that govern worthiness to be in the temple.  We have temples in Orthodoxy.  Our churches are our temples.  We refer to them as such.  Every church building is patterned after the temple in Jerusalem and our liturgy is based on the liturgy of the first temple, but different in that under the new covenant there is a new liturgy and only one high priest - Jesus.  Our churches are constructed so that we face east when we pray.   There is a veil (the iconostasis) and an open space before the veil where the parishioners, the baptized and anointed members of the Body of Christ - the royal priesthood of all believers, stand to pray.  Behind the veil is the holy of holies and the altar, the place where heaven and earth meet, the place that is simultaneously in time and outside of time.  Each Sunday we stand before God along with the angels and all the saints and worship God, exactly as described in the Revelation of John.  Being worthy to stand before God in his temple alongside the angels and partake of the Holy Eucharist is of paramount concern in Orthodoxy.

 

There are definitely rules that determine personal worthiness to approach Christ Himself in the chalice, but no system is in place for anyone to check up on whether you comply with the rules.   It's entirely up to you to decide whether you're worthy to approach the chalice.  We use the honor system.  At most, when you approach the chalice, if the priest hasn't seen you for a while he might ask you, before giving you the Body and Blood of Christ, if you've been to confession recently.  If not, he'll give you a blessing but will not permit you to receive the Eucharist.  This is for your own spiritual safety.  "Those who eat and drink the body and blood of Christ unworthily eat and drink condemnation to their souls".  Except for that, there are no mechanisms in place to check up on you.  There are no personal priesthood interviews with priesthood leaders, no annual interviews with the bishop or stake president, no temple recommends, no tithing settlement.  The people pay tithes and offerings, but there are no tithing slips or appointments where you're asked whether you contribute to the parish.  Yes, a collection basket is passed around at the end of the liturgy, but the basket is also on a table next to the church's main door so you if you want to be 100% anonymous in your offering you can place it in the basket as you walk in when no one is looking.  "When you pray, shut the door and pray in secret.  When you fast, anoint your head and fast in secret.  Don’t let your right hand know what your left hand is doing".  Among other rules, we're expected to keep a daily prayer rule, attend church on all twelve feast days and attend Saturday evening Vespers (in addition to weekly attendance on Sunday), dress appropriately at church, give alms, observe a strict fast before taking communion (no food or water beginning at midnight on Saturday until we receive the Eucharist on Sunday), and observe the diet restrictions of the other fasting periods in the church, where you're expected to revert to the angelic state of Paradise before the Fall. Basically, you eat like a vegan during each of these fasting periods - 1. Forty days before Easter (the fast of Great Lent); 2. The first two weeks of August (Dormition Fast) 3. Forty days before Christmas (the Nativity Fast); 4. From the second Monday after Pentecost until June 29 (the Apostle's Fast, the length of which varies based on how late in the year Easter falls, from 8 to 42 days in duration); and 5. Every Wednesday and Friday during the week in remembrance of Jesus' betrayal and crucifixion, respectively.  The strictest fasts are the Lenten, Dormition, and the Wednesday and Friday fasts.  You follow a vegan diet and no oil is allowed.  Lots and lots of fasting. 

 

So yea, we have lots of rules, just like Mormonism.  The difference is what I've already described.  No priest or other ecclesiastical leader schedules interviews ask whether you're doing what you're supposed to be doing or whether you think you're worthy to enter the temple.  It's entirely up to you.  You are completely made free in Christ.    Checklists and interviews are old covenant.  It's the approach of the Pharisees.  The rules really aren't even rules in the sense of requirements you must meet to be 'worthy'.  They are all ascetic practices.  Orthodox spirituality is not checklist-based, it's not juridical or forensic.  and every rule is a spiritual aid meant to assist in purifying the inner man, to cleanse the inner vessel, to build a temple where the Holy Spirit can dwell and begin to work on you to transform you bit by bit into a completely new person in Christ, a person who is a Christ-bearer, a person who has acquired the image of God, returned to the Paradise state and loves as God loves.  Keeping all of the rules conscientiously isn't what saves you.  That's the spirituality of the Pharisees.  You can't make yourself holy by keeping rules.  Holiness is not equated with external moral perfection.  You must be made holy through the action of the Spirit before you can dwell in the Kingdom.   The Spirit blows where it wills.  Your job is to prepare the place where the Spirit can dwell.  He will come at God's pleasure and according to His timeline.  You prepare a holy place within you and cooperate with the Spirit when He comes by keeping to the ascetic practices.  It's entirely up to you to decide how clean you want that inner vessel to be.  Breaking fasts, forgetting to pray, skipping church, drinking wine on fast days, or failing to contribute to the community doesn't mean you've broken any commandments.  You haven't sinned.  All you've done is failed avail yourself of the means through which you can acquire the aid of the Holy Spirit in your journey.  Without that, you're left to your own devices as you seek to keep Christ's commands to love God and your neighbor as yourself. 

Thank you for the interesting and informative information about the Orthodox Church. I can understand from your point of view how the LDS Church may appear to "make yourself holy by keeping the rules." My experience is that we are every bit as intent on preparing ourselves to be a holy place that freely and willingly cooperates with the Spirit in deciding how clean we want the inner vessel to be.  The apparatus for doing that may differ between us (perhaps not as much as you may think), but we are seeking the same end to love God and our neighbors.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

So yea, we have lots of rules, just like Mormonism.  The difference is what I've already described.  No priest or other ecclesiastical leader schedules interviews ask whether you're doing what you're supposed to be doing or whether you think you're worthy to enter the temple.  It's entirely up to you.  You are completely made free in Christ.

 

I'm not sure i'm understanding you so i need to ask, how is personally answering whether or not you are worthy to enter the temple different than it being entirely up to you on whether or not you are worthy to participate in your church? 

 

They seem like the exact same thing to me.

 

Orthodox spirituality is not checklist-based, it's not juridical or forensic.  and every rule is a spiritual aid meant to assist in purifying the inner man, to cleanse the inner vessel, to build a temple where the Holy Spirit can dwell and begin to work on you to transform you bit by bit into a completely new person in Christ, a person who is a Christ-bearer, a person who has acquired the image of God, returned to the Paradise state and loves as God loves. 

 

 

This is what LDS believe are the purpose of 'our' rules as well.

 

Keeping all of the rules conscientiously isn't what saves you. 

 

 

The LDS church teaches the exact same thing.

 

Breaking fasts, forgetting to pray, skipping church, drinking wine on fast days, or failing to contribute to the community doesn't mean you've broken any commandments.  You haven't sinned.  All you've done is failed avail yourself of the means through which you can acquire the aid of the Holy Spirit in your journey.  Without that, you're left to your own devices as you seek to keep Christ's commands to love God and your neighbor as yourself.

 

 

What's the difference between sinning in your religion, and being left to your own devices without the aid of the Holy Spirit?

 

In the LDS faith the definition of sinning is to spiritually separate yourself from God.  So in my understanding, sinning and being left to your own devices without the Holy Spirit is the exact same thing.

Edited April 24, 2014 by bluebell

[JDave]

...  This is for your own spiritual safety.  ...

This seems to be the crux of the matter, for the OP as well as the gun club analogy.  People may chafe under rules or organization, but the doctrine is that those things are there to help and enable.  Maturing in the gospel includes recognizing the rules and organization for what they are — as well as what they are not.