Top Ten Things I Love About Not Being A Mormon Anymore: A Response

[canard78]

In other words, so much disinformation in such a teeny tiny amount of bandwidth.

 

Some of your replies to his issues were also wrong.

 

(This is a drive by shooting)

[california boy]

In other words, so much disinformation in such a teeny tiny amount of bandwidth.

 

Disinformation can also come from members, as in the replies you gave.  I want to remind you that this is also what I wrote, something you failed to address or acknowledge.  So I will repost it for you in bold letters.  It might help your understanding of what I stated.  

 

I explained that not all of these are commandments.  Some are standards that members are expected to follow.  Some are strongly worded directives, and some are traditions.  But yes, they all have been addressed in one way or another.  

 

 

 

I also did not say that the church FORCES anyone to follow the commandments standards and directives.  Never said the church excommunicates members that do not follow the guidelines.  Never stated that the church does ANYTHING at all to members who do not follow the council of the brethren.  I also never stated that these issues are controlled at all times.  For example missionaries are not allowed to wear beards.  BYU students are not allowed to wear beards.  The church only controls beard growth during those times.  And yes it is completely controlled.  You are not allowed to register at BYU if you have a beard.  I don't think it is a rule the Methodist made up.  I am pretty sure it is a rule the church made up.  But once again, just in case you missed it, I never stated that you give up your free agency when you join the church.

 

 I could go through each of the points I made and define which ones are commandments, which ones are standards members are expected to follow and which ones are strongly worded directives, but I think you are perfectly capable of doing that yourself.  Is all you have to do is be a little more honest.  If you have NEVER heard of any of these issues, I would be glad to point you to the exact church position on any of these.  But I am assuming you know perfectly well what I am referring to and are just trying to have a spirit of dissension.  

[Senator]

Some of your replies to his issues were also wrong.

 

(This is a drive by shooting)

 

I too found CB's list and BG's reply about as equally informative.  Which wasn't much.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Senator

[Bernard Gui]

In other words, so much disinformation in such a teeny tiny amount of bandwidth.

 

Disinformation can also come from members, as in the replies you gave.  I want to remind you that this is also what I wrote, something you failed to address or acknowledge.  So I will repost it for you in bold letters.  It might help your understanding of what I stated.  

 

 

I also did not say that the church FORCES anyone to follow the commandments standards and directives.  Never said the church excommunicates members that do not follow the guidelines.  Never stated that the church does ANYTHING at all to members who do not follow the council of the brethren.  I also never stated that these issues are controlled at all times.  For example missionaries are not allowed to wear beards.  BYU students are not allowed to wear beards.  The church only controls beard growth during those times.  And yes it is completely controlled.  You are not allowed to register at BYU if you have a beard.  I don't think it is a rule the Methodist made up.  I am pretty sure it is a rule the church made up.  But once again, just in case you missed it, I never stated that you give up your free agency when you join the church.

 

 I could go through each of the points I made and define which ones are commandments, which ones are standards members are expected to follow and which ones are strongly worded directives, but I think you are perfectly capable of doing that yourself.  Is all you have to do is be a little more honest.  If you have NEVER heard of any of these issues, I would be glad to point you to the exact church position on any of these.  But I am assuming you know perfectly well what I am referring to and are just trying to have a spirit of dissension.  

Your protests and "disclaimer" to the contrary, you did say "But the church also controls...........(whatever)." Please answer the CFR on gays not having friendships with other gays. I firmly stand by my rejection of your disinformation.

Since one continues to have free agency after joining the Church, the Church cannot control you or your actions. To do so would be contrary to church doctrine. "God will force no man to heaven." Your clear implication

is that the Church (in the name of God) does force its members to do as you say it does (controls you),  and therefore is reprehensible as an institution. You do so in support of a person who engages in the same practice of spreading disinformation about the church.  It is the fine print that you (and others) leave out that is the heart of your disinformation. For example, the bit about beards and BYU. You did not make that clarification in your original post. Same with colored shirts. Same with every point you made. Later sneaking back in the fine print does not mitigate the original intent. Omitting or using things out of context is every bit creating disinformation as direct lying about things. You clearly and expressly meant to give the impression to an uninformed reader that one gives up agency when one joins the church precisely because the church controls x, y, or z.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I too found CB's list and BG's reply about as equally informative. Which wasn't much.

I just joined a nearby rifle club. In order to be a member and participate in the club activities, I had to pay dues and agree to abide by all safety rules while on the shooting line. Example, my weapon must be pointed down range at all times. Weapons are required to be left on the shooting stand unloaded and with the action open for all to see when not in use. Safety goggles and hearing protection must be worn at all times. No alcohol or drugs. I obligated myself to attend a certain number of training courses and business meetings each year. If I bring guests, they have to be over 8 years old and I have to supervise their activities while they are on the range. If I am observed violating any safety rules, the range officer will come over and correct me. If I persist in violating safety rules or refuse to pay dues, I will be kicked out of the club.

Does the club control me?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Senator]

I just joined a nearby rifle club. In order to be a member and participate in the club activities, I had to pay dues and agree to abide

by all safety rules while on the shooting line. Example, my weapon must be pointed down range at all times. Weapons are required

to be left on the shooting stand unloaded and with the action open for all to see. I obligated myself to attend a certain number of

business meetings each year. If I bring guests, they have to be over 8 years old and I have to supervise their activities while they

are on the range. If I am observed violating any safety rules, the range officer will come over and correct me. If I persist in violating

safety rules or refuse to pay dues, I will be kicked out of the club.

 

Does the club control me?

 

In regards to your relationship with the club, yes, I believe to a degree it does.

[why me]

if "most" means the majority, I'd like to see some links to specific churches that teach/preach this.  In reality, you can't provide this because - with all due respect to the right to post - you don't know what you're talking about.

I do know that in the catholic faith the last rites are given for a reason. And there are certainly a lot of hell fire preachers left on the circuit. Even pope francis has restated the existence of hell and told catholics to beware the devil because he is real. So, where am I off the mark?

[Bernard Gui]

In regards to your relationship with the club, yes, I believe to a degree it does.

In regards to your relationship with the club, yes, I believe to a degree it does.

Interesting. So, if I become disenchanted with the club, I can go on the internet in all honesty and with good conscience and complain about how this club controlled me....how I spent my money, what times I could come and go, what clothing I had to wear, what drugs or drinks I could not use, how and when I could use my personal property, with whom I could associate, what activities I could do, how it forced me to go to countless meetings, was always on my back and threatened me, and what a lousy gun club it was, and how I feel so liberated and happy now that I quit, but the club can't point out the problems with my criticism. Edited April 21, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I have posted several responses copied from my comments here on Jen's website, but none has been allowed to show on the site. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Senator]

 but the club can't point out the problems with my criticism. 

 

I never said that.

[Bernard Gui]

I never said that.

That doesn't answer my question.

[Senator]

That doesn't answer my question.

What's the question?

[wenglund]

I have posted several responses copied from my comments here on Jen's website, but none has been allowed to show on the site. 

 

The content of Jen's website is being very controlled?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Gervin]

I do know that in the catholic faith the last rites are given for a reason. And there are certainly a lot of hell fire preachers left on the circuit. Even pope francis has restated the existence of hell and told catholics to beware the devil because he is real. So, where am I off the mark?

well, let's see:

 

 

1. I do know that in the catholic faith the last rites are given for a reason. TRUE
2. And there are certainly a lot of hell fire preachers left on the circuit. TRUE
3. Even pope francis has restated the existence of hell and told catholics to beware the devil because he is real. TRUE​

 

You scored a perfect 100%, whyme.  I bestow upon you "expert status" on the topics of last rites, hell fire preachers, the pope and the devil.

[Bikeemikey]

Interesting. So, if I become disenchanted with the club, I can go on the internet in all honesty and with good conscience and complain about how this club controlled me....how I spent my money, what times I could come and go, what clothing I had to wear, what drugs or drinks I could not use, how and when I could use my personal property, with whom I could associate, what activities I could do, how it forced me to go to countless meetings, was always on my back and threatened me, and what a lousy gun club it was, and how I feel so liberated and happy now that I quit, but the club can't point out the problems with my criticism.

You could say those things if the club had behavioral requirement about those things.

If the gun club did require specific actions around those areas you would be doing everyone a service if you did post about it online and let everyone know.

[Bernard Gui]

What's the question?

 

 So, if I become disenchanted with the club, can I go on the internet in all honesty and with good conscience and complain about how this club controlled me....how I spent my money, what times I could come and go, what clothing I had to wear, what drugs or drinks I could not use, how and when I could use my personal property, with whom I could associate, what activities I could do, how it forced me to go to countless meetings, was always on my back and threatened me, and what a lousy gun club it was, and how I feel so liberated and happy now that I quit, but the club can't point out the problems with my criticism?

[Bernard Gui]

The content of Jen's website is being very controlled?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What! You think maybe?

[Bernard Gui]

You could say those things if the club had behavioral requirement about those things.

If the gun club did require specific actions around those areas you would be doing everyone a service if you did post about it online and let everyone know.

Ummmmm............

[Bikeemikey]

Ummmmm............

Not sure onomatopoeia is a great debate tool.

[california boy]

Your protests and "disclaimer" to the contrary, you did say "But the church also controls...........(whatever)." Please answer the CFR on gays not having friendships with other gays. I firmly stand by my rejection of your disinformation.

Since one continues to have free agency after joining the Church, the Church cannot control you or your actions. To do so would be contrary to church doctrine. "God will force no man to heaven." Your clear implication

is that the Church (in the name of God) does force its members to do as you say it does (controls you),  and therefore is reprehensible as an institution. You do so in support of a person who engages in the same practice of spreading disinformation about the church.  It is the fine print that you (and others) leave out that is the heart of your disinformation. For example, the bit about beards and BYU. You did not make that clarification in your original post. Same with colored shirts. Same with every point you made. Later sneaking back in the fine print does not mitigate the original intent. Omitting or using things out of context is every bit creating disinformation as direct lying about things. You clearly and expressly meant to give the impression to an uninformed reader that one gives up agency when one joins the church precisely because the church controls x, y, or z.

More disinformation by you about my post.  I didn't type any fine print.  All of my posts are in the exact same default size.  And my original post was not intended to lay out specifically EVERY restriction put on members by the church.  Any active member would know exactly what I was talking about and when those conditions arrise and that the church does not excommunicate or punish it's members that don't follow the guidelines.  You on the other hand are pretending that such guidelines do not exist, which is completely false.  I am not even saying that the guidelines are wrong, unnecessary or should be abolished.  I am only pointing out that for some people the restrictions placed on them by the church may very well make them feel some freedom when they leave the church.  Others, have no such issue.  The majority of members embrace the restrictions as a part of their faith.  It doesn't bother them one bit that the church demands these restrictions.  I assume you are one of those members.  But to pretend that such commandments, counsel, standards and directives do not exist in the church is disinformation in and of itself.  Now if you want to talk about punishment for not adhearing to those restrictions, that is ANOTHER subject.

 

Here is the answer to your CFR.

 

 

Man Fired From LDS Church For Refusing To Give Up Gay Friends

 

To receive or maintain a temple recommend, Mormons must answer certain standardized questions. The stake president says on the recording that the question Call could not answer honestly asks, “do you support, affiliate with or agree with any group or individuals whose teaching or practices are contrary to or opposed to those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?” The stake president goes on to say that that question applies to Call’s gay friends “because of the moral decay that is going in the world and that’s part of it. The church opposes the relationship between a man and a man and a woman and a woman, and you’re associating with those individuals. I don’t know how to get around that.”

 

[california boy]

 So, if I become disenchanted with the club, can I go on the internet in all honesty and with good conscience and complain about how this club controlled me....how I spent my money, what times I could come and go, what clothing I had to wear, what drugs or drinks I could not use, how and when I could use my personal property, with whom I could associate, what activities I could do, how it forced me to go to countless meetings, was always on my back and threatened me, and what a lousy gun club it was, and how I feel so liberated and happy now that I quit, but the club can't point out the problems with my criticism?

I think it would be dishonest for the club to NOT post the standards expected of their members on their official web site.  People should know what rules they will be required to abide by before deciding to join the club.

 

You are acting as if the church should hide or some how be ashamed of it's standards and that people should not find out what those standards are until AFTER they have joined the church.  It is this kind of not being forthright that is causing many to go through a faith crisis.  Why do you want to perpetuate such a culture on such trivial issues?  If you felt that further clarification of my post was necessary then instead of attacking it and claiming that my statements were false, you should have clarified them yourself if you felt that was necessary. For example, you could have said, the church counsels against tattoo's.  But it is a personal choice whether one follows that counsel.  No one is going to inspect you and bar you from attending meetings if you have one.  Instead, this was your response

 

You can have as many tattoos as you wish. If they are under your clothes, how would the "church" know?

What would the church do to a person who got a tattoo? Force them to remove it? Take away their temple recommend?

Nothing there about the fact that the church does indeed counsel AGAINST having tattoos.

Edited April 22, 2014 by california boy

[Tacenda]

So, if I become disenchanted with the club, can I go on the internet in all honesty and with good conscience and complain about how this club controlled me....how I spent my money, what times I could come and go, what clothing I had to wear, what drugs or drinks I could not use, how and when I could use my personal property, with whom I could associate, what activities I could do, how it forced me to go to countless meetings, was always on my back and threatened me, and what a lousy gun club it was, and how I feel so liberated and happy now that I quit, but the club can't point out the problems with my criticism?

Does the gun club tell you that you will be with family for eternity if you do all of those things?

[Senator]

 So, if I become disenchanted with the club, can I go on the internet in all honesty and with good conscience and complain about how this club controlled me....how I spent my money, what times I could come and go, what clothing I had to wear, what drugs or drinks I could not use, how and when I could use my personal property, with whom I could associate, what activities I could do, how it forced me to go to countless meetings, was always on my back and threatened me, and what a lousy gun club it was, and how I feel so liberated and happy now that I quit, but the club can't point out the problems with my criticism?

Yes you can......Yes they can.

 

Again, I never said you, they couldn't.

[Bernard Gui]

Not sure onomatopoeia is a great debate tool.

Not sure not following the discussion is a great debate tool.

[Bernard Gui]

 

More disinformation by you about my post.  I didn't type any fine print.  

All of my posts are in the exact same default size.  And my original post was not intended to lay out specifically EVERY restriction put on members by the church.  Any active member would know exactly what I was talking about and when those conditions arrise and that the church does not excommunicate or punish it's members that don't follow the guidelines.  You on the other hand are pretending that such guidelines do not exist, which is completely false.  I am not even saying that the guidelines are wrong, unnecessary or should be abolished.  I am only pointing out that for some people the restrictions placed on them by the church may very well make them feel some freedom when they leave the church.  Others, have no such issue.  The majority of members embrace the restrictions as a part of their faith.  It doesn't bother them one bit that the church demands these restrictions.  I assume you are one of those members.  But to pretend that such commandments, counsel, standards and directives do not exist in the church is disinformation in and of itself.  Now if you want to talk about punishment for not adhearing to those restrictions, that is ANOTHER subject.

 

Here is the answer to your CFR.

 

 

Man Fired From LDS Church For Refusing To Give Up Gay Friends

 

Of course you didn't type any fine print. That's the point....that's what you leave out....the necessary explanatory fine print. You paint with a very, very broad brush, citing some obscure or restricted bit of information, such as one person who may or may not have had an unfortunate encounter with a single stake president, or a BYU policy on beards, or whatever, and imply it is indicative of church-wide control over the members. This is the very definition of disinformation.

 

Unfortunately, we only have one side of the temple recommend story. There is not much information about who and what his association with gay friends was or what kinds of activities they participated in or what went on at the events to which he took his child. Or the fact that he deceived his wife and abandoned his family yet wants to work for the church. This is not an example of oppressive church control, but it is an excellent bit of disinformation.

 

http://utahcybersluts.blogspot.com

http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-10327-the-utah-cyber-sluts-at-sundance.html

Edited April 22, 2014 by Bernard Gui