False Doctrine At Conference

[frank_jessop]

And you are absolutely sure of this because,,,,

Was "Mortal Messiah",the source of the 1979 quote, published by the Church? No it was not. McConkie was speaking for himself in all his books that are not claimed by the Church to represent the position of the Church.

Additionally, when has a personal statement of a Apostle trumped a statement of a Prophet, especially when that Prophetic statement is published by the Church?

[ERayR]

Was "Mortal Messiah",the source of the 1979 quote, published by the Church? No it was not. McConkie was speaking for himself in all his books that are not claimed by the Church to represent the position of the Church.

Additionally, when has a personal statement of a Apostle trumped a statement of a Prophet, especially when that Prophetic statement is published by the Church?

 

What I see here is a typical battle of authorities.  Without serious study, reflection and personal revelation I would not come down on either side.  Alas so much to do.

[thesometimesaint]

Elder Bednar stated it is our Doctrine by revelation that Jesus was born on April 6th

 

Incorrect

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700094707/What-was-the-real-date-of-Jesus-birth.html?pg=all

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Date_of_birth

 

 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFViewer.aspx?title=8651&linkURL=49.4ChadwickDating-61f85baf-ef24-4584-ba44-1892097daede.pdf

 

I would not call it false doctrine or doctrine. We actually don't know. But a good case can be made of early spring time. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[rameumptom]

I have to admit that when I heard Elder Bednar make his statement, I knew that he was wrong.  D&C 20:1 was written by Joseph Smith's scribe as a prologue to the revelation, and was accidentally added to it later.  No one ever read it as meaning Jesus was born April 6, 1 BC until Elder B.H. Roberts suggested it.  Sadly, this concept continues in the Institute manual, using a quote from previous GAs (one of the many reasons to replace the manual).

 

It is sad when a GA does not keep up with the information. What is sadder is that Elder Bednar was an academician, and should have known to check his sources.

 

Is it possible that Jesus was born on 6 April? Yes. Is it possible he was born in 1 BC? No.  However, no revelation has ever been fully established, unless one reads into that one verse things that are not really there.

Edited April 7, 2014 by rameumptom

[fellwalker46]

Statements by the Brethren, in talks or articles do not establish doctrine, even when the statement is from an apostle or even a prophet in conference. It may simply be an expression of personal belief not binding on the Church as a whole.  This is clearly the case when different leaders have different opinions.  This quotation is from the Church newsroom: 

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency...and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles...counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

     LDS Newsroom, "Approaching Mormon Doctrine," lds.org (4 May 2007)

 

There has been more than a single statement supporting 6 April; but there have been other statements supporting a different view.  To my knowledge, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles have not "counselled together" to establish this particular fact one way or another.  Until they do (not likely in my opinion) it remains an unsettled issue.

 

I enjoyed Elder Bednar's talk; ironically he began with a story about getting stuck in snow, with wheels spinning . . .

[Damien the Leper]

The date of Jesus's birth according to LDS teaching is false. This is a false teaching but is a far cry from being doctrinal.

[rameumptom]

The problem here is President Packer has been teaching and pushing the 12 to only teach the doctrine for several decades now. It would be one thing for Elder Bednar to have said that he believed Christ's birth is April 6th. However, when he states it is from revelation, he then is attempting to establish it as doctrine.  The Church spent a lot of time and energy moving away from the period of speculative General Conference talks only to have Elder Bednar slide something in like this.  Do you know how many FAIRMormon articles and discussions have had to sideline concepts taught by Brigham Young, Joseph F Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R McConkie and others, as their opinion and not doctrine?  There still are people (members and others) who insist that we believe in blood atonement, Adam-God, and man should not go to the moon.

 

I know several of the Brethren will have scholars review their talks to ensure they are not taking scriptures out of context, etc.  It would not have been a difficult thing to have Daniel Peterson, Bill Hamblin or many other scholars at BYU to review the point and bring up this issue.  I do not believe our prophets are infallible. I do believe them to be witnesses of Christ.  I also hope they will try not to be careless or uninformed, prior to teaching us from the General Conference pulpit.

[funguyrye]

 

Well, sorry for the following lengthy post.  Here is a cliff notes version of how the bible points to October being Jesus's birth.

 

Most people recognize December 25 as Jesus's birthday. There is little to no scriptural basis for this day being the day Jesus was born, or April 6 for that matter. If one wanted to really know where that date came from, it wouldn't be hard to find where this "tradition" came from. Don't get me wrong, I do my usual token traditional Christmas day observance with the family, but does the bible give us clues on when he was born? Try and follow along:

Luke 1:5,8,9 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

1 Chronicles 24:1,2,10,19 Now these are the divisions of the sons of Aaron. The sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest's office. 10 The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah, 19 These were the orderings of them in their service to come into the house of the LORD, according to their manner,

The course of Abia, or Abijah tells us what time of the year it was and when he was serving. Each of these courses (teams) would serve once a week, twice a year and would rotate. I will use the word teams to just facilitate our western idea and thoughts about what a course meant. What happened was during the 3 annual pilgrimages to the Jerusalem temple in Israel for the Feasts, it has been documented up to 1 - 2 million people would come during this time and the priests would serve in weekly rotations. During the annual pilgrimages, all the teams would serve together due to the multitudes of people coming to sacrifice. So Zacharias was the eighth team (1 Chronicles 24), and understanding the Feasts that approximately 8 weeks from Passover is Pentecost, we can understand when he was serving and what time of the year it was. Zacharias would be serving double duties. One week for what would now be his regular duties, and then an additional week for his Pentecost duty. It would look like this:

The following is the order of the priestly divisions in relation to the Feasts:1st week of Nissan/Abib,

1st priestly division of Jehoiarib serves

2nd week of Nissan, 2nd priestly division of Jedaiah serves

3rd week of Nissan, Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread, ALL PRIESTS SERVE

4th week of Nissan, 3rd priestly division of Harim serves

1st week of Iyar, 4th priestly division of Seorin serves

2nd week of Iyar, 5th priestly division of Malkijah serves

3rd week of Iyar, 6th priestly division of Mijamin serves

4th week of Iyar, 7th priestly division of Hakkoz serves

1st week of Sivan, 8th priestly division of Abijah serves

2nd week of Sivan, Shavuot, ALL PRIESTS SERVE (including the division of Abijah

Luke 1:10,11 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

Multitude means a plethora, or a large number of people. And why were they there? It was for the Feast of Pentecost that would have been at the time, upwards of 1 - 2 million people would have descended upon the city (Deuteronomy 16:16) as it was commandment to be there. God wanted us to know that this was during a Feast time.

Luke 1:23,24 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house. And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months,

For his wife to conceive, it would not have happened unless he was there, so obviously he was in a hurry to get home. LOL

Luke 1:26,35,36 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

It would now be in December of Elizabeth being pregnant and Mary spent 3 months with her until Elizabeth gave birth to John the Baptist which would be around Passover in March - April.

Luke 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

Jesus was conceived in her womb about late December or January, and 9 months from then would be into September or October which would take us into the fall Feasts. Namely Succot.

Understanding the Messianic connection of Jesus to the Feast of Tabernacles, or Succot even helps us grasp something of the mystery of His Incarnation:

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

The word "dwelt" here in the Greek means "tabernacled."When He became flesh, Jesus inhabited the temporary shelter of an earthly body, knowing He soon would be required to leave it. Why did He do it? So that we might find a home in Him - not a temporary shelter in the wilderness, but an eternal home in a Kingdom that abides forever.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (When?)

Mark 9:1,2,5 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Peter saw this as a Feast of Tabernacles event, and that is why he wanted to build a tabernacle.

But back to baby Jesus, he has now been born, and has been wrapped in swaddling cloths and there was no room in the inn. Why was there no room in the inn? Being born during the Feasts, there was a huge influx of Jews to Israel for the annual pilgrimage, and all the rooms were taken. If he was born in December, there would have been plenty of room. That explains why there was no room in the inn.

December as well does get cold in Israel, particularly in December. Luke 2:8-11 has the shepherds out in the fields. The heavy rains start in December and January, and the sheep were not kept out to be hit by rain and snow. They were back in their pens for the winter months. It would have been cruel for God to have Mary make the trek to Jerusalem 30 days after her purification to travel over mountainous terrain during the rainy and cold season (Leviticus 12:4; Luke 2:22).

Succot is to be a time of great rejoicing and one is to even bring strong drink if desired (Deuteronomy 14:26).

Deuteronomy 16:14-15 <SUP></SUP>and you shall rejoice in your feast, you and your son and your daughter and your male and female servants and the Levite and the stranger and the orphan and the widow who are in your towns. Seven days you shall celebrate a feast to the Lord your God in the place which the Lord chooses, because the Lord your God will bless you in all your produce and in all the work of your hands, so that you will be altogether joyful. Seven days you shall celebrate a feast to the Lord your God in the place which the Lord chooses, because the Lord your God will bless you in all your produce and in all the work of your hands, so that you will be altogether joyful.

God wants us to party and celebrate when he will dwell with us once again. He wants us to celebrate his birthday. Not just for one day, but for one week!!! So loosen up a bit, and celebrate the day when he first dwelt with man, and will one day return for all of eternity.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

 

Funguyre, when you use others' work without giving them credit, that is plagiarism and against board rules. If you are the original writer of this website, my apologies:

http://www.chosenpeople.com/main/holidays-and-festivals/203-sukkot-a-gathering-of-messiahs-harvest

PS: are you Ryan of this post which is identical to yours save for some deleting of poor coding, I believe, including the copying from at least the one site without attribution.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/happy-birthday-jesus.50066/

My apologies, I am Ryan of that other site of which I copied and pasted onto here.  I did not source my material or references, of which I will do so now.

 

http://www.chosenpeople.com/main/holidays-and-festivals/203-sukkot-a-gathering-of-messiahs-harvest

 

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/biltz/feasts_part4/index.html

 

http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/feasts/notes/Feast%20of%20Tabernacles.pdf

 

Is anyone interested in discussing what the Word of God says on when Jesus was born, or more interested in what the church leaders have to say?

[BCSpace]

Elder Bednar stated it is our Doctrine by revelation that Jesus was born on April 6th

 

Incorrect

 

 

If it wasn't doctrine then and the Church publishes Bednar's talk, it's doctrine now.  I don't get that is necessarily Jesus' DoB from my reading of the D&C though just like I don't get the Garden of Eden was necessarily in the USA or even in this hemisphere from my reading of the two verses in the D&C used to justify that doctrine.

[Rivers]

This shows that there is a huge disconnect between the church leadership and church scholarship.

[mfbukowski]

I tried to explain this controversy to my parents at dinner when we were discussing conference. They are both smart people. My dad's comment was probably the most poignant: (best I can do from memory) "Why do people argue about what is and is not doctrine when it is clear that either belief has no practical effect, leads to no other principles or doctrines, and has no application?"

 

I'm going to go with my patriarchal leader on this one.

He gets the Golden Pragmatist Award.

[escott3564]

what revelation?  I absolutely guarantee he is basing that on Section 20 and nothing independant of it.  If I am right and Historical background is correct, what he said is false.  I simply wish in our day and age there was more ways to sift out the nonsense.

How can you absolutely guarantee that?  Have you had a conversation with Elder Bednar that the rest of us don't know about?

 

Sorry, but there is no way you can absolutely guarantee anything unless you talk to the man.  None of us are mind readers.  Only Elder Bednar knows "absolutely" what he was basing his comments on.

[Calm]

My apologies, I am Ryan of that other site of which I copied and pasted onto here.  I did not source my material or references, of which I will do so now.

 

http://www.chosenpeople.com/main/holidays-and-festivals/203-sukkot-a-gathering-of-messiahs-harvest

 

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/biltz/feasts_part4/index.html

 

http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/feasts/notes/Feast%20of%20Tabernacles.pdf

 

Is anyone interested in discussing what the Word of God says on when Jesus was born, or more interested in what the church leaders have to say?

Excellent, thank you.

[escott3564]

I would not call it false doctrine or doctrine. We actually don't know. But a good case can be made of early spring time. 

 

I always thought that spring made the most sense, just based on the Bible text.

 

As far as the exact date goes, I don't think it really matters one way or the other.

 

It's interesting.  I teach the 5 year old Primary class right now.  The kids and I were talking about Christmas, and how our celebration of Christmas is basically a big birthday party for Jesus.  I think that's a really nice way to look at it.  The thing is, if you look at it that way, does it really matter whether we have his birthday party on his actual birth date, or on a different day?  I don't really think so.  The significance comes in celebrating it, and recognizing that he WAS born, and that He lives.

[mfbukowski]

Astrological evidence?  This is pretty cool!

 

SolsticeSun-300x227.jpg

Did you ever notice this one?

Malachi 4:2

"But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall."

S-u-n Of Righteousness!

Edited April 8, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

My apologies, I am Ryan of that other site of which I copied and pasted onto here.  I did not source my material or references, of which I will do so now.

 

http://www.chosenpeople.com/main/holidays-and-festivals/203-sukkot-a-gathering-of-messiahs-harvest

 

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/biltz/feasts_part4/index.html

 

http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/feasts/notes/Feast%20of%20Tabernacles.pdf

 

Is anyone interested in discussing what the Word of God says on when Jesus was born, or more interested in what the church leaders have to say?

Oh my.

And how pray tell do you know that your quotes are the "word of God" and the others are not?

Did you watch God write them with his quill pen?

Edited April 8, 2014 by mfbukowski

[DBMormon]

Just discovered something really awesome...........

 

It is said in this thread that President Kimball is one of the Leaders who makes such a proclamation and is quoted saying ""My brothers and sisters, today we not only celebrate the Sesquicentennial of the organization of the Church, but also the greatest event in human history since the birth of Christ on this day 1,980 years ago. Today is Easter Sunday."
(Spencer W. Kimball, “Remarks and Dedication of the Fayette, New York, Buildings,” Ensign, May 1980, 54)


But that is not what he said - His actual words are " ""My brothers and sisters, today we not only celebrate the Sesquicentennial of the organization of the Church, but also the greatest event in human history since the birth of Christ on this EARTH 1,980 years ago. Today is Easter Sunday."

That changes everything.  The Ensign quotes him incorrectly.  Here is the audio

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/05/remarks-and-dedication-of-the-fayette-new-york-buildings  ------> incorrect printed version

Audio that is correct is on the same site and must be downloaded. from that page.

[3DOP]

funguyrye

Is anyone interested in discussing what the Word of God says on when Jesus was born, or more interested in what the church leaders have to say?

 

3DOP

The Scriptures alone just don't resolve the question.

 

I hold that the date is Dec. 25th based upon the biblical and patristic argument that the feast at which Zachary was promised a child was held in September. This would make the visit of the Archangel to Mary on March 25th, six months later, and called the Feast of the Annunciation. The Feast of the Birth of John the Baptist is naturally held on June 25th. Six months from that date the sun is low in the sky, Christmas. It provides a beautiful symmetry to the seasons of the Church Year as has been pointed out, with the Sun of Righteousness (thank you bukowski) arriving in the bleak midwinter. Souls have been edified for centuries with what is admittedly a not certainly accurate chronology. It isn't as important to be certain about the chronology in my opinion, as it is to decide whether you think it is of critical importance.

 

For those who think the exact date is easily derived, and they have a certainty about it that is in conflict with how Western Christianity including Protestants and Mormons has celebrated, they are free to preach their "good news", gather the crowds, and set up their own church calendar instead of following the apparent corruptions that originate with the Roman Church with its desire to introduce paganism to Christianity.

Edited April 8, 2014 by 3DOP

[JLHPROF]

The date of Jesus's birth according to LDS teaching is false. This is a false teaching but is a far cry from being doctrinal.

 

Or maybe there is no proof source of the teaching but it's true anyway....since when did we need proof for religion.  Isn't it a faith based thing anyway?  The prophet Joseph Smith made many doctrinal pronouncements with absolutely no evidence, written revelation, or historical source.

 

Maybe Elder Bednar is wrong, but what harm does it do to exercise a little faith that he might be right?  Are we afraid we might be mocked by historians, scientists or other religions, because I've got news for you....

[DBMormon]

Or maybe there is no proof source of the teaching but it's true anyway....since when did we need proof for religion.  Isn't it a faith based thing anyway?  The prophet Joseph Smith made many doctrinal pronouncements with absolutely no evidence, written revelation, or historical source.

 

Maybe Elder Bednar is wrong, but what harm does it do to exercise a little faith that he might be right?  Are we afraid we might be mocked by historians, scientists or other religions, because I've got news for you....

For me anyway, being mocked is the furthest thing from my mind.  I simply hate false assumptions being handed down generation to generation when they are easy enough to correct.

 

Check out my list of false assumption many in the Church hold

 

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/false-assumptions/

[rpn]

The difference between what he said, and what was printed that he said is usually because the person realizes they misspoke and asks for the correction.   What do we know about the source of the Ensign quote difference in the Kimball change?

[JLHPROF]

For me anyway, being mocked is the furthest thing from my mind.  I simply hate false assumptions being handed down generation to generation when they are easy enough to correct.

 

Check out my list of false assumption many in the Church hold

 

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/false-assumptions/

 

Again, you believe them to be false.  While I agree that much of your list are false traditions, there are those on the list I think are true.  Do I have proof?  No.  It's a matter of faith as all religion is.

 

And I say again - what possible harm is there in believing Christ's birthday is April 6th.  Maybe the evidence that it is is weak, but with no evidence to say it is false where is the harm in taking it on faith a bit?

 

But since you have your own personal list of "false assumptions" I can see why a General Authority reiterating one of them in General Conference would make you jump up and down like this.  Personally, I don't see why April 6th can't be Christ's birthday, and I don't need proof.

[mfbukowski]

3DOP

It isn't as important to be certain about the chronology in my opinion, as it is to decide whether you think it is of critical importance.

Dude!

Congratulations, you are now a follower of Rorty and the boys.

Apply that logic to the Trinity, and we will be on the same page!

[mfbukowski]

Just discovered something really awesome...........

 

It is said in this thread that President Kimball is one of the Leaders who makes such a proclamation and is quoted saying ""My brothers and sisters, today we not only celebrate the Sesquicentennial of the organization of the Church, but also the greatest event in human history since the birth of Christ on this day 1,980 years ago. Today is Easter Sunday."

(Spencer W. Kimball, “Remarks and Dedication of the Fayette, New York, Buildings,” Ensign, May 1980, 54)

But that is not what he said - His actual words are " ""My brothers and sisters, today we not only celebrate the Sesquicentennial of the organization of the Church, but also the greatest event in human history since the birth of Christ on this EARTH 1,980 years ago. Today is Easter Sunday."

That changes everything.  The Ensign quotes him incorrectly.  Here is the audio

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/05/remarks-and-dedication-of-the-fayette-new-york-buildings  ------> incorrect printed version

Audio that is correct is on the same site and must be downloaded. from that page.

Honestly this is no big deal. It is kind of a hobby of mine to compare written transcripts with the audio, and have found that changes are made all the time

Just another ambiguity of life to get used to.

It really doesn't matter.

[mfbukowski]

Again, you believe them to be false.  While I agree that much of your list are false traditions, there are those on the list I think are true.  Do I have proof?  No.  It's a matter of faith as all religion is.

 

And I say again - what possible harm is there in believing Christ's birthday is April 6th.  Maybe the evidence that it is is weak, but with no evidence to say it is false where is the harm in taking it on faith a bit?

 

But since you have your own personal list of "false assumptions" I can see why a General Authority reiterating one of them in General Conference would make you jump up and down like this.  Personally, I don't see why April 6th can't be Christ's birthday, and I don't need proof.

There is a 1 in 365 chance that every speculation about it is right, and none of them matter.