False Doctrine At Conference

[DBMormon]

But in this case it is not obvious they are wrong and you are right, unless you want to declare your infallibility.  

I was agreeing with you and you still bite back.  Nothing was meant in the negative.  Only that we need to be ok with mistakes as the Lord himself says it will occur.

[DBMormon]

I don't think ANYONE believes that there is.  So they all choose to accept or not accept April 6th as the day.

 

Even I (who like to believe April 6th is the day) was disagree with someone who said it had been confirmed by revelation.

hence my issue.  My issue has never been a leader saying he believed Jesus was born on a certain day.  My issue has been the claim that "WE KNOW" as a group when he was born.  Certain folks here don't want to say it but the fact is it is FALSE that we as a group know the birthdate of Christ.  Which was my whole point.

 

They have tried to make it about my not allowing a person (leader in this case ) to hold a personal view of the date of Christ's birth date... which is a strawman as from the very beginning I have simply stated that  declaring it as common testimony among the church that "we know" by revelation what day Christ was born on.... is false.

 

We as a community DO NOT KNOW nor is there any revelation from the Lord declaring such.

 

It seems simple but for some reason it is really complicated.

Edited January 13, 2015 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

Here's the problem with this thread, as I see it: Let's liken General Conference to an wonderfully delicious feast of many different gourmet dishes and costly delicacies gathered from around the world, all expertly prepared by renowned chefs. And let's say that from an experienced food critic's point of view each individual dish, and the vast array of delicacies, are a smashing gastronomic success -- the lone exception being the fact that a small number of the raw oysters served were a little gritty with very small particles of sand. So would it make sense or seem fair if it turned out that the food critic's review of this triumphantly spectacular, once-in-a-lifetime gustatory experience was focused only on decrying the seafood bar's few oysters that betrayed a little easily overlooked grittiness?

 

We'll know we're reaching greater spiritual maturity as saints when we're able to focus upon and discuss the main content and focus of our General Authority's General Conference addresses, rather than waste so much time carping and worrying about small and virtually inconsequential doctrinal "grains of sand" that 'get by' every now and then. 

 

Since my "limited" status will not allow me to post new topics, I'm wondering if some of the faithful Church members on the board would reread Elder Bednar's address and post a thread or two that focuses on some of the compelling doctrinal concepts he presents there, rather than continue to "miss the mark" by carrying on and on over a few minute grains of sand.

I loved the talk generally and thought it one of the bests of conference.  But this thread is about a specific point as all threads are.  If you want to do so please start a new thread

[DBMormon]

But in this case it is not obvious they are wrong and you are right, unless you want to declare your infallibility.  

This misnomer has been acknowledged per the new manual quote I shared a page or two earlier.

[JLHPROF]

hence my issue.  My issue has never been a leader saying he believed Jesus was born on a certain day.  My issue has been the claim that "WE KNOW" as a group when he was born.  Certain folks here don't want to say it but the fact is it is FALSE that we as a group know the birthdate of Christ.  Which was my whole point.

 

It is FALSE that we know.

It is NOT FALSE that Christ was born on April 6th, because we don't know.

 

SO

To teach that we know that Christ was born on April 6th would be problematic.

To teach that Christ was born on April 6th is just opinion.

 

Does placing the qualifier really matter?  You think yes, the majority here think no.  Quibbling over semantics is far to pedantic for my tastes.  Just go with it and assume opinion.

[DBMormon]

It is FALSE that we know.

It is NOT FALSE that Christ was born on April 6th, because we don't know.

 

SO

To teach that we know that Christ was born on April 6th would be problematic.

To teach that Christ was born on April 6th is just opinion.

 

Does placing the qualifier really matter?  You think yes, the majority here think no.  Quibbling over semantics is far to pedantic for my tastes.  Just go with it and assume opinion.

 

Let me ask you this.  Lets forget the April 6th issue all together and simply address the principle.

 

Do you think it is problematic if Church leaders claim we as a church know something by revelation when no such church wide revelation exists.

 

For me the principle is the issue... aka claiming divine knowledge among the general membership when none exists.  

 

While the april 6th is of little consequence, claiming divine knowledge when none exists is in principle a problem.

Edited January 13, 2015 by DBMormon

[teddyaware]

I loved the talk generally and thought it one of the bests of conference.  But this thread is about a specific point as all threads are.  If you want to do so please start a new thread

 

I carefully listened to Elder Bednar's April 2014 conference address again tonight and it's obvious to me his April 6th comment was an "add on" that had little impact on the content and message of his address.

 

Did it ever occur to you that as an Apostle of the Lord Elder Bednar -- a living prophet, seer and revelator -- may have learned for himself, by revelation, that the Lord was actually born on April 6th and that it's no coincidence the Lord specifically chose His own birthday to be the day His Church would be reborn (restored) in the latter-days? Why go on and on about alleged "false doctrine" when, for all you know, the Lord chose the April 2014 General Conference of the Church to more formally announce the day of His birth to the saints? After all, the date of Elder Bednar's address was April 6th and that would be a most appropriate day and time to make such a momentous announcement over the Conference Center pulpit. If an Apostle of the Lord appers to have received greater light and knowledge on a particular subject, why should a rank and file member cry foul and doubt him?

 

It's seems awfully presumptuous to assume that an Apostle of the Lord wouldn't or couldn't possibly know, by revelation, the day of the Lord's birth. And for all you know, the other 14 prophets, seers and revelators also know the Lord was born on April 6th, and knew the announcement was going to be made that day. It could very well be that Elder Bednar was given the sacred opportunity to announce the revealed day of the Lord's birth to the Church in a very sacred and formal setting. In fact, in his address he said it was a profoundly sacred occasion for two very important reasons: it was the anniversary of the day the Restored Church was organized in these latter-days; and it was, according to Apostle Bednar, the anniversary of the Lord's birth as well. 

 

When Apostle Bednar says "we know by revelation" that April 6th is the Lord's birthday, he might very well be speaking of a revelation of which you and I are unaware. Joseph Fielding Smith testified that the files of the highest councils of the Church are full of revelations that have not been published to the world at large, but they are revelations from God nonetheless. And as it is with the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon, though a revelation may be as yet be unpublished, that doesn't mean it isn't a true communication from heaven.

 

I guess it takes all kinds to fill up the ranks of the Lord's Church. But one thing's for sure, I'm not one of those who's so cocksure of himself and presumptuous that I would ever assert in a public forum that an Apostle of God likely preached "false doctrine" in a General Conference of the Church, when in reality there's no way of knowing, one way or another, (unless I too receive a revelation on the subject as well) if he did preach false doctrine.

 

There are 365 days in a year, and based on the New Testament accounts the Saviour was likely born in the Spring, so that substantially narrows down the probable date of the His birth. Question: Will you apologize to Elder Bednar for declaring on this board that you think he likely spoke false doctrine if it actually turns out the Lord was born on April 6th?

Edited January 13, 2015 by teddyaware

[Hamba Tuhan]

Why go on and on about alleged "false doctrine"?

 

Because straining at gnats is so much fun?

[DBMormon]

 

Did it ever occur to you that as an Apostle of the Lord Elder Bednar -- a living prophet, seer and revelator -- may have learned for himself, by revelation, that the Lord was actually born on April 6th and that it's no coincidence the Lord specifically chose His own birthday to be the day His Church would be reborn (restored) in the latter-days? 

Fine, Awesome.... totally ok with that.  There still is no common revelation from the Lord declaring it to the Church (D&C1 was written by John Whitmer as a heading 4 days after the revelation on April 10th).  

 

I am perfectly ok and comfortable with a Leader receiving revelation to know something.  But since The prophet  did not receive revelation of the birth date of Christ and since such a revelation was not shared with the Church generally, no such revelation is available is available to the Church.  Hence had a leader claimed divine knowledge saying "I know" I would be perfectly ok... but to say "we Know" is incorrect.

 

The Church agrees with me.  Hence the NEW New Testament Institute manual is updated to reflect this view

 

 

Matthew 1:25. The Year of Christ’s Birth

Concerning the year in which Jesus Christ was born, “the Church has made no official declaration on the matter” (J. Reuben Clark Jr., Our Lord of the Gospels [1954], vi). The calendar currently used throughout most of the world was created many centuries after Jesus Christ lived, and experts disagree about how to use existing historical information to calculate the year of His birth. Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote: “This is not a settled issue. Perhaps also it does not matter too much as long as we have an accepted framework of time within which to relate the actual events of [Christ’s] life” (The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary,4 vols. [1979–81], 1:350).

 

Again the doctrine of what day the Lord was born on is insignificant.

On the other hand, Claiming divine knowledge of a truth being common to the Church when it isn't is to me a principle worth discussion.

Similar to The First Presidency telling Dr. Lowery Nelson that it was common knowledge and Doctrine that blacks were less valiant and interracial marriage was sin.   

Since I will never stand for blind obedience or following prophets when their wrong, I find these issues crucial to teaching that each of us is responsible to study it out in our minds and to rely on the Holy Ghost and that a Leader saying something doesn't make it true, no matter how many members would prefer to remain silent or give the benefit of the doubt.

[DBMormon]

Because straining at gnats is so much fun?

claiming one independantly knows the date is not false Doctrine.... I have never said it was

 

Claiming the Church knows anything about anything by revelation when when the Church doesn't know is false.

 

I feel like through out this thread I have distinguished between two entirely different ideas and some how a handful here either can't distinguish or choose not to because their argument would lose steam. 

 

If Elder Christofferson stood up and said "we know by revelation that _____________ "  fill in the blank with any idea that while not false also is not shown to be true and is not not known by the Church through divine knowledge.

 

He is claiming communal knowledge that the community doesn't have.  That is false doctrine.  The Doctrine he claims is true is not accepted Doctrine.

[Rivers]

I once held a theory that April 6th is a day of cosmic significance on which all major gospel events take place:

The birth of Christ.

The resurrection

The first Vision(JS did say it took place in spring)

Organization of the church.

The second coming.

[DBMormon]

I once held a theory that April 6th is a day of cosmic significance on which all major gospel events take place:

The birth of Christ.

The resurrection

The first Vision(JS did say it took place in spring)

Organization of the church.

The second coming.

I think I would benefit more from taking the same beliefs

[CV75]

He is claiming communal knowledge that the community doesn't have.  That is false doctrine.  The Doctrine he claims is true is not accepted Doctrine.

But the community does have the knowledge because it has the scriptures upon which his conclusion is based. Individual interpretation aside, the doctrine is accepted by the community because the canon in which it is found is sustained by the community as binding.

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 

“Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine.” So, not every statement that one refuses as doctrinal is not false doctrine, either.

 

“…doctrine resides in the four “standard works”…,” and these are binding upon the community. Citing from these is not false doctrine.

 

“Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines.” Differing prioritization by two different people of a doctrine does not make it false.

 

“Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine.” A lack of confirmation does not make a doctrine false.

 

“Journalists, academics and laymen alike are encouraged to pursue their inquiries into the Church by recognizing the broad and complex context within which its doctrines have been declared, in a spirit of reason and good will.” A spirit of reason and good will is consistent with the doctrine of Christ.

 

His statement is no more false than the Articles of Faith, which the community has and by having accepted as canon, but which not everyone within the community understands the same way or agrees in lock-step on every point.

[ERayR]

I was agreeing with you and you still bite back.  Nothing was meant in the negative.  Only that we need to be ok with mistakes as the Lord himself says it will occur.

Okay sorry but I read your post as a defense of criticism.  This illustrate the problem of translation and interpretation.

[ERayR]

hence my issue.  My issue has never been a leader saying he believed Jesus was born on a certain day.  My issue has been the claim that "WE KNOW" as a group when he was born.  Certain folks here don't want to say it but the fact is it is FALSE that we as a group know the birthdate of Christ.  Which was my whole point.

 

They have tried to make it about my not allowing a person (leader in this case ) to hold a personal view of the date of Christ's birth date... which is a strawman as from the very beginning I have simply stated that  declaring it as common testimony among the church that "we know" by revelation what day Christ was born on.... is false.

 

We as a community DO NOT KNOW nor is there any revelation from the Lord declaring such.

 

It seems simple but for some reason it is really complicated.

 

Might be your presentation combined with your history.

[ERayR]

It is FALSE that we know.

It is NOT FALSE that Christ was born on April 6th, because we don't know.

 

SO

To teach that we know that Christ was born on April 6th would be problematic.

To teach that Christ was born on April 6th is just opinion.

 

Does placing the qualifier really matter?  You think yes, the majority here think no.  Quibbling over semantics is far to pedantic for my tastes.  Just go with it and assume opinion.

 

Quibbling is DB's forte.  Turning mole hills into mountains is his vocation.

[stemelbow]

In truth this is interesting but it is also small potatoes. I don't think anyone is greatly concerned that Bednar and other prophets and leaders have thought there was revelation as to what day Christ was born, even if there was not. Oh well, we're all human beings and no matter how hard we try we're all going to say something false in our lives. Even if we think we know what we're talking about, we'll mess up. Just wait. We'll learn that is the case soon enough. Light will be poured upon us and we'll finally be able to see clearly. Oops...we may realize at that day, we really really messed up.

Perhaps one day we'll learn and see clearly. We'll know at that time, perhaps, that:

1. We should never have instituted the priesthood ban, and because of our mistake many suffered needlessly as a consequence.

2. That JS, though a prophet, got carried away with polygamy, did things he was not supposed to, even did not pay strict heed to the revelation he received on how to practice it and many suffered as a consequence.

3. That it is counter-intuitive, wrong, and destructive to treat gays as sinners who do not deserve the blessings found in eternity.

4. That we should not have been feasting upon the flesh of the beasts.

5. That we should never have got caught up in the riches of society, never should have built a mall, never should have withheld our moneys and resources from the poor and the needy.

6. That we are a bit too much like those who worshipped at Rameumptum.

7. That we are too insular as a group and have missed many an opportunity to embrace truth that came from a source we have plain objected to.

etc etc...

I'm sure there'll be plenty of things we think we know now that we'll see completely differently some day. I can't wait for that day. Until then, I'll reserve my right to question, challenge and wonder what is right.

[ERayR]

Because straining at gnats is so much fun?

 

There is also something about motes and beams.

[DBMormon]

Might be your presentation combined with your history.

it probably has something to do with it.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

To teach that we know that Christ was born on April 6th would be problematic.

To teach that Christ was born on April 6th is just opinion.

True. Thank you. And are we not cautioned against teaching opinions? Yes.

 

Those who claim this is quibbling are unable or unwilling to see the larger principle behind it. Teachings of the prophets and apostles are taken very seriously and like TeddyAware demonstrated, many within the church assume that anything they say must be revelation. These assumptions have led to many problems throughout the history of the church. If they want to share an opinion, state it is an opinion. If they want to reveal a revelation, let them say it is a revelation. But I don't think it is necessary or even good to assume every word out of the mouth of the prophet or apostles is the revealed word of God.

 

A caution to all: If the quibbling continues the thread will be closed.

[DBMormon]

Quibbling is DB's forte.  Turning mole hills into mountains is his vocation.

actually my vocation is selling floorcovering and drawing up floor plans and estimates.

[DBMormon]

 

Bob Crockett, on 12 Jan 2015 - 4:58 PM, said:

My goodness -- you avoid questions like the plague around here.  At least you're somewhat not anonymous.

 

You and April 6.  Just go out of town on that date and don't listen to conference to get you all in a twitter.

 

April 6th out of town?..... hmmmm  that won't work, that's when our family does Christmas.

 

I don't avoid questions, I simply don't see some of them or don't have time at the moment to answer those that require lengthy answers and when I have time I have forgotten to go back and answer... or some I am certain that we will simple continue to disagree after I answer it and so I don't see it helping the discussion.   That said ask me 5 sincere questions and I will tonight answer them to the best of my ability.  

 

1.)

 

2.)

 

3.) 

 

4.) 

 

5.) 

Edited January 13, 2015 by DBMormon

[mfbukowski]

hence my issue.  My issue has never been a leader saying he believed Jesus was born on a certain day.  My issue has been the claim that "WE KNOW" as a group when he was born.  Certain folks here don't want to say it but the fact is it is FALSE that we as a group know the birthdate of Christ.  Which was my whole point.

Let me suggest to you that you are totally missing the point;

 

Do you really want a list of all the things we DON"T "know" with scientific precision which we take on faith and believe AS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS?

 

I could write a list until doomsday.

 

Maybe this will suffice to start

 

The historicity of the Bible

The historicity of the Book of Mormon

The Historicity of Book of Abraham

Whether or not Joseph was lying about all of D&C being "revelations"

Whether or not Joseph was lying about the first vision

Whether or not evolution is "true"

Whether or not it really took 6 days to create the earth

Who really wrote Isaiah, or any book of the bible- Do you want a list of each book?

Whether or not Jesus ever lived

Whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin

Whether or not Jesus is the Son of God

Whether or not God exists

Whether or not Heavenly Mother exists

Whether or not it is really "wrong" to kill people

Whether or not there is an afterlife at all- much less all the details like the three degrees of glory etc.

Whether or not Satan exists

Why women should or should not have the priesthood.

 

And on and on and on and on.

 

We accept all of these on faith- and you are worried about the date of Christ's birth?  And if we got it right or not?

 

Really??

[teddyaware]

Let me suggest to you that you are totally missing the point;

 

Do you really want a list of all the things we DON"T "know" with scientific precision which we take on faith and believe AS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS?

 

I could write a list until doomsday.

 

Maybe this will suffice to start

 

The historicity of the Bible

The historicity of the Book of Mormon

The Historicity of Book of Abraham

Whether or not Joseph was lying about all of D&C being "revelations"

Whether or not Joseph was lying about the first vision

Whether or not evolution is "true"

Whether or not it really took 6 days to create the earth

Who really wrote Isaiah, or any book of the bible- Do you want a list of each book?

Whether or not Jesus ever lived

Whether or not Jesus was born of a virgin

Whether or not Jesus is the Son of God

Whether or not God exists

Whether or not Heavenly Mother exists

Whether or not it is really "wrong" to kill people

Whether or not there is an afterlife at all- much less all the details like the three degrees of glory etc.

Whether or not Satan exists

Why women should or should not have the priesthood.

 

And on and on and on and on.

 

We accept all of these on faith- and you are worried about the date of Christ's birth?  And if we got it right or not?

 

Really??

 

BULLSEYE!!! If I were allowed I'd give you a rep point.

Edited January 14, 2015 by teddyaware

[Hamba Tuhan]

BULLSEYE!!! If I were allowed I'd give you a rep point.

 

Just did if for you.