Most Women Get The Type Of Man They Dress For - March 2014 Ensign

[cinepro]

I haven't been much interested in contributing to (or even reading) this thread, but I just noticed that Daniel Peterson on his blog raised a good question and provided a link.

 

The question is this: Would there have been the same reaction had the point been voiced by a California fashion writer instead of Elder Callister?

 

Here's the link (and please pardon me if this has already been raised on this thread; I'm not inclined to search back through 23 pages of posts just to ensure I'm not duplicating something):

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-does-your-outfit-say-about-you

 

It's an interesting question.  If I were standing in line at Safeway and Cosmopolitan had an article titled "Dress To Get the Man You Deserve!!!", I probably wouldn't think twice about it. 

 

But Elder Callister's comment does raise another question.  If a women is "getting" a man that is in some way unsuitable, why is she accepting it?  Or is that why there are so many single women in the Church...they're all just dressing wrong?

Edited March 4, 2014 by cinepro

[mfbukowski]

I haven't been much interested in contributing to (or even reading) this thread, but I just noticed that Daniel Peterson on his blog raised a good question and provided a link.

 

The question is this: Would there have been the same reaction had the point been voiced by a California fashion writer instead of Elder Callister?

 

Here's the link (and please pardon me if this has already been raised on this thread; I'm not inclined to search back through 23 pages of posts just to ensure I'm not duplicating something):

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-does-your-outfit-say-about-you

Brilliant find!

[Buckeye]

I haven't been much interested in contributing to (or even reading) this thread, but I just noticed that Daniel Peterson on his blog raised a good question and provided a link.

 

The question is this: Would there have been the same reaction had the point been voiced by a California fashion writer instead of Elder Callister?

 

Here's the link (and please pardon me if this has already been raised on this thread; I'm not inclined to search back through 23 pages of posts just to ensure I'm not duplicating something):

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-does-your-outfit-say-about-you

 

I'm with Cinepro. On one hand, I fully agree with Dan's point. We don't find as much objection to the same statement told by the world as when it is told by church leaders. Unfortunately (and maybe Dan didn't intend this) Dan's point is a two edge sword. Advice that is wrong (in this case that women should dress for men) is wrong regardless of who says it - church leaders or cosmo.

 

It didn't fully dawn on me until now, but a lot of the headlines of fashion mags are geared towards teaching women how to make men approve of them. So what should our reaction be when the Ensign follows suit?

 

Edit to add:  So my answer to Dan would be, members react more strongly to Elder Callister than to a California fashion writer because, frankly, we expect better counsel out of Elder Callister than we do from Cosmo and 17. 

Edited March 4, 2014 by Buckeye

[Scott Lloyd]

 

 

But Elder Callister's comment does raise another question.  If a women is "getting" a man that is in some way unsuitable, why is she accepting it? 

It's a question I have often asked myself. Alas, I have not yet found a satisfactory answer.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm with Cinepro. On one hand, I fully agree with Dan's point. We don't find as much objection to the same statement told by the world as when it is told by church leaders. Unfortunately (and maybe Dan didn't intend this) Dan's point is a two edge sword. Advice that is wrong (in this case that women should dress for men) is wrong regardless of who says it - church leaders or cosmo.

 

It didn't fully dawn on me until now, but a lot of the headlines of fashion mags are geared towards teaching women how to make men approve of them. So what should our reaction be when the Ensign follows suit?

 

Edit to add:  So my answer to Dan would be, members react more strongly to Elder Callister than to a California fashion writer because, frankly, we expect better counsel out of Elder Callister than we do from Cosmo and 17. 

I haven't read Elder Callister's article, but is it really fair to say he advocates "teaching women how to make men approve of them"?

[mercyngrace]

But Elder Callister's comment does raise another question.  If a women is "getting" a man that is in some way unsuitable, why is she accepting it?  Or is that why there are so many single women in the Church...they're all just dressing wrong?

 

Maybe the single women are dressing correctly. 

 

Maybe the married women decided to follow Eve's example and take a wardrobe hit for the benefit of the human race.

[Buckeye]

I haven't read Elder Callister's article, but is it really fair to say he advocates "teaching women how to make men approve of them"?

 

Wait, so you've read Dan's blog and followed some of this thread, but you haven't read the Ensign article being discussed?

 

The money quote is this: "In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for." In my reading, yes, he is saying that women should dress for the approval of men. Granted, the statement isn't as bad as other recent counsel from a church YSA devotional (I can't find the address at the moment), and the statement is much more subdued that what you see in cosmo and it's ilk, but it's still the same princple being taught. Maybe the gulf between the church and the world isn't so great after all.

[Scott Lloyd]

Wait, so you've read Dan's blog and followed some of this thread, but you haven't read the Ensign article being discussed?

 

As I said, my interest in the thread has been tepid at best. But when I saw Dan's blog post, it seemed like a pertinent point, so I thought I'd bring it here for consideration.

 

The money quote is this: "In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for." In my reading, yes, he is saying that women should dress for the approval of men. Granted, the statement isn't as bad as other recent counsel from a church YSA devotional (I can't find the address at the moment), and the statement is much more subdued that what you see in cosmo and it's ilk, but it's still the same princple being taught. Maybe the gulf between the church and the world isn't so great after all.

 

My reading is that there are ideals of decency and modesty that are alike for men and women and that transcend what the world finds acceptable. To me, Elder Callister seems to be saying that one communicates one's values by how one dresses, and that one is apt thereby to attract like-minded individuals.

 

Or you could draw a less charitable inference, I suppose.

 

But I hadn't intended to get drawn into this, so I guess I'll bow out now.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mercyngrace]

To me, Elder Callister seems to be saying that one communicates one's values by how one dresses, and that one is apt thereby to attract the attention of like-minded individuals.

 

Maybe there is truth in this basic premise. 

 

Superficial people are drawn to others who obsess about their appearance. Right?

Edited March 4, 2014 by mercyngrace

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe there is truth in this basic premise. 

 

Superficial people are drawn to others who obsess about their appearance. Right?

Perhaps that's one application, but I don't think that's all there is to it.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with reverencing the body as God's temple and conveying one's personal belief in chastity and sexual morality.

 

That's God's standard, and it applies whether one is male or female. To respond to Buckeye's argument, it's more about dressing to please God than dressing to please men. Presumably, if a woman does that, she is more apt to attract a man who shares her values in this respect.

 

That's my take on it, anyway.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[katherine the great]

I don't think that women actually dress for men, no, they dress to be seen by other women.  While the results may be that they attract the men, the satisfaction comes from being better dressed than all of the other women.  Am I right ladies?

 

No.  There is no single reason all women dress the way they do.  I personally have always dressed according to what I personally believe flatters my figure.

[juliann]

I haven't been much interested in contributing to (or even reading) this thread, but I just noticed that Daniel Peterson on his blog raised a good question and provided a link.

 

The question is this: Would there have been the same reaction had the point been voiced by a California fashion writer instead of Elder Callister?

 

Here's the link (and please pardon me if this has already been raised on this thread; I'm not inclined to search back through 23 pages of posts just to ensure I'm not duplicating something):

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-does-your-outfit-say-about-you

 

That is a disgusting article which goes so far as to compare women to strippers. Why is it assumed that if women are demeaned by fashion writers it is accepted? Some of the worst trash comes from media, it has absolutely nothing to do with Elder Callister's talk.  For all that acceptance of it, it only garnered two comments. And going with the theme that we are responsible for what we attract, look what kind of man was attracted to this advice:  "Women need to take a bit more responsibility for the men who approach them and how they approach."  There could not be a clearer example of the dangers in letting men think that women can not only influence them but are responsible for their inappropriate behavior.  And since this smirking man's reaction follows a fashion writer's article...it can be accepted rather than those inconsequential Primary teachers, RS Presidents, and nursery leaders.

[juliann]

I don't think that women actually dress for men, no, they dress to be seen by other women.  While the results may be that they attract the men, the satisfaction comes from being better dressed than all of the other women.  Am I right ladies?

 

When a woman enters a room, she doesn't look around to see which men are checking her out, but she looks around to see which women are better dressed, then she secretly wants to squish that woman. 

 

Pogi, take a hard look at this kind of talk about women. It is objectionable. Most women on the planet don't have the wardrobe to dress for anyone at all. Those of us with access to money and the products of cheap labor can afford to wear what makes us feel good about ourselves. Certainly, evil and devious motives can be assigned to women but I have to wonder why.

[knowone]

 

 

follow the advice of the Lord & things work out for the best.  go against the advice of the Lord & one is asking for trouble. 

 

the truth is supposed to be slighty painful for us in the flesh because it goes against the flesh.

[cinepro]

Last weekend, my wife and I watched a 2012 documentary about LDS Singles and an annual "retreat" at Duck Beach, North Carolina.  It's a weekend of Mormon parties, beach fun, and Church on Sunday.

 

Here's the trailer, which shows the most applicable facet of the documentary to this thread.  Namely, most of the girls wear bikinis.  It was interesting to see the pressure felt by the singles that were profiled, and how they dealt with it.  But it made me wonder how it related to Elder Callister's article, because the girls who dressed immodestly knew exactly what they were looking for, and made the conscious decision that wearing a bikini was the best way to get it.

 

[pogi]

Pogi, take a hard look at this kind of talk about women. It is objectionable. Most women on the planet don't have the wardrobe to dress for anyone at all. Those of us with access to money and the products of cheap labor can afford to wear what makes us feel good about ourselves. Certainly, evil and devious motives can be assigned to women but I have to wonder why.

 

KTG and Juliann, I was only repeating the sentiment that I have heard from several women who said it in the same tongue-in-cheek manner in which I did.  It was a lighthearted comment meant to bring a smile, because there is probably an element of truth to it for a lot of women.

 

I got curious to see how popular this idea is that women dress for other women and I stumbled across this:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2002391/Sorry-chaps-women-dress-impress-other.html

 

You mention that you dress to feel good about yourself.  Just curious, what is it about taking hours to put on a mask of make-up, expensive jewelry, matching out-fit and accessories that makes you feel good about yourself?  If other people were not a variable, you certainly wouldn't waste your time making yourself up to feel better about yourself would you?  Most women I know hate that they "have to" spend hours getting ready. 

 

People dress to impress, that is what fashion is about.  The question is, who are you trying to impress?  Your boss or co-workers, your man, your friends, that girl that always looks so perfect and seems to have it all together, or just the general public?

 

Unless you don't wear any make-up or waste your money on jewelry and expensive attire, but dress entirely for comfort or practical purposes, I don't buy the whole "I dress for myself" bit.  Just so you know, I don't think there is anything "evil" or "devious" about dressing for others. I do.

Edited March 4, 2014 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

Last weekend, my wife and I watched a 2012 documentary about LDS Singles and an annual "retreat" at Duck Beach, North Carolina.  It's a weekend of Mormon parties, beach fun, and Church on Sunday.

 

Here's the trailer, which shows the most applicable facet of the documentary to this thread.  Namely, most of the girls wear bikinis.  It was interesting to see the pressure felt by the singles that were profiled, and how they dealt with it.  But it made me wonder how it related to Elder Callister's article, because the girls who dressed immodestly knew exactly what they were looking for, and made the conscious decision that wearing a bikini was the best way to get it.

 

Yuk!

[Calm]

 

You mention that you dress to feel good about yourself.  Just curious, what is it about taking hours to put on a mask of make-up, expensive jewelry, matching out-fit and accessories that makes you feel good about yourself?  If other people were not a variable, you certainly wouldn't waste your time making yourself up to feel better about yourself would you?  Most women I know hate that they "have to" spend hours getting ready. 

 o.

I have met very few women who have to spend hours getting ready. Anyone who has to take care of small children is hardly going to have that time. Takes me 20 minutes to get ready for church including shower, another 5 if I iron anything.

[pogi]

I have met very few women who have to spend hours getting ready. Anyone who has to take care of small children is hardly going to have that time. Takes me 20 minutes to get ready for church including shower, another 5 if I iron anything.

 

You don't go to the same ward that I do then.  My wife is a lot like you and I love it, she wears a pony tail every week to church, and I might add that she can pull off the pony tail better than anybody I know!  On special occasions, she will actually blow dry her hair (which seems to takes 20 minutes alone), and breaks out her flat iron to get some nice waves.  When you add on the full blown make-up regime, plus dress with accessories and jewelry, we are talking a bear minimum of one hour.  I would say that at least half of the women in my ward dress like that every sunday with full blown make-up and hair.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, I just don't believe that they are dressing for themselves.  

Edited March 4, 2014 by pogi

[Calm]

Perhaps they are dressing with that level of care because they feel it is a sign of respect for God in whose house they will be...to look their best as we are taught.

[Senator]

Last weekend, my wife and I watched a 2012 documentary about LDS Singles and an annual "retreat" at Duck Beach, North Carolina.  It's a weekend of Mormon parties, beach fun, and Church on Sunday.

 

Here's the trailer, which shows the most applicable facet of the documentary to this thread.  Namely, most of the girls wear bikinis.  It was interesting to see the pressure felt by the singles that were profiled, and how they dealt with it.  But it made me wonder how it related to Elder Callister's article, because the girls who dressed immodestly knew exactly what they were looking for, and made the conscious decision that wearing a bikini was the best way to get it.

 

 

Having never heard of Duck Beach as a Mormon spring break destination, I had to investigate a little further.

 

My initial reaction to the trailer was one of, "Oh my!"

 

However, I found this review of the documentary rather thoughtful.

 

http://www.patheos.com/Mormon/Duck-Beach-Rosalynde-Welch-11-01-2012.html

[pogi]

Perhaps they are dressing with that level of care because they feel it is a sign of respect for God in whose house they will be...to look their best as we are taught.

 

Perhaps, but they are still dressing for somebody else    

[katherine the great]

KTG and Juliann, I was only repeating the sentiment that I have heard from several women who said it in the same tongue-in-cheek manner in which I did.  It was a lighthearted comment meant to bring a smile, because there is probably an element of truth to it for a lot of women.

 

I understand.  I have heard people say that for decades, but it never rang true to me.  I'm sure it is true for some women--it just never was for me.  Personally, I was always super feminine and a little bit vain so I always dressed according to way I felt made me look "pretty."  Women are individuals and anyone who makes blanket statements about women (or men) is just missing a large subset of the population.

Oh, also--I have NEVER spent hours getting ready for anything (except maybe studying for a particularly difficult test or presentation!)  Hair and makeup take a maximum of 20 minutes for my lifestyle.

Edited March 5, 2014 by katherine the great

[Senator]

Perhaps they are dressing with that level of care because they feel it is a sign of respect for God in whose house they will be...to look their best as we are taught.

 

Perhaps.  But for some reason I highly doubt it.

[juliann]

You don't go to the same ward that I do then.  My wife is a lot like you and I love it, she wears a pony tail every week to church, and I might add that she can pull off the pony tail better than anybody I know!  On special occasions, she will actually blow dry her hair (which seems to takes 20 minutes alone), and breaks out her flat iron to get some nice waves.  When you add on the full blown make-up regime, plus dress with accessories and jewelry, we are talking a bear minimum of one hour.  I would say that at least half of the women in my ward dress like that every sunday with full blown make-up and hair.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, I just don't believe that they are dressing for themselves.  

 

You can't really add hair to the time. It is out of our control until it becomes acceptable to wear crewcuts. Hair styles are primarily determined by what your hair will do. Some lucky women can wash their hair and walk out the door wet. Those with uncooperative hair have to spend some time with it. You can't look at hair and have any idea how much time it took to manage unless you are there.  Make-up shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Putting your arms and legs into clothes even less. So unless it is some gala event, I'm not sure where all that time is being spent.

 

As to why...women are so harshly judged by how they look. I saw a newsfeed about Michelle Obama's new eyebrows the other day. When is the last time anyone took closeups of a man's eyebrows and then attributed it to his attractiveness? Even the missionary website instructs women on make-up.

 

And I find it a little troubling that you have women (figuratively) in front of you saying the do dress to please themselves. The only reason I wear a skirt to church is because it is more comfortable for me to go with that flow. Why do you continue to speak about all women and throw out what those in front of you are saying? Do you see the problem here?

 

 

People dress to impress, that is what fashion is about.  The question is, who are you trying to impress?  Your boss or co-workers, your man, your friends, that girl that always looks so perfect and seems to have it all together, or just the general public?

 

Unless you don't wear any make-up or waste your money on jewelry and expensive attire, but dress entirely for comfort or practical purposes, I don't buy the whole "I dress for myself" bit.  Just so you know, I don't think there is anything "evil" or "devious" about dressing for others. I do.

 

Everyone I know is always more motivated by how flattering clothes are than anything else. If could be the most fashionable,man slayer  clothing ever but if it makes you look chunky, it goes back on the rack.  Go shopping with women. New fashion is fun but it is your reflection in that mirror that makes the final decision, nothing else.  No one dressed up where I worked so the co-worker thing is kind of funny to me. And I do like to be "perfect" in what I do...who doesn't? I don't see putting together a creative outfit much differently than I did in putting together a creative academic paper. It has to please me before I put it in front of someone else. And it has to be something I can take pride in because it represents me at a very basic level.

Edited March 5, 2014 by juliann