Church To Build A 32 Story Apartment Complex In Philly

[rockpond]

Perhaps you are correct; although, I doubt it.  I read it as two separate data "tables." The first table details Welfare services for the year 2011 and includes non-monetary information just for 2011.  The second data table below it references disaster assistance specifically for the years 1985 - 2011.  The $1.4B total immediately below references the same years (1985 - 2011)--which (at least in my mind) is a monetary summary of the disaster relief outlined above.

 

Agreed.  I don't think it is abundantly clear how to read that figure.  We don't even know if the $1.4B references cash donations only or cash and the "value of monetary assitance" as they have distinguished in previous years.  We don't have a lot of information available.

 

But my point still stands... For many who are concerned about the church's involvement in development projects, my impression is that they are concerned about the ratio of dollars spent on aid and/or welfare to the dollars spent on development projects.  Suppose that there is another figure, a multi-billion dollar figure that represents welfare spending by the church.  Would that change the mind of someone who thinks it is inappropriate for a church to spend more money on commercial development than on humanitarian aid?

 

Among the people in my circles, commercial for-profit development is very antithetical to both scriptural teachings and the four-fold mission of the church.  But the people in my circles may not accurately represent general church membership.

[Okrahomer]

Agreed.  I don't think it is abundantly clear how to read that figure.  We don't even know if the $1.4B references cash donations only or cash and the "value of monetary assitance" as they have distinguished in previous years.  We don't have a lot of information available.

 

But my point still stands... For many who are concerned about the church's involvement in development projects, my impression is that they are concerned about the ratio of dollars spent on aid and/or welfare to the dollars spent on development projects.  Suppose that there is another figure, a multi-billion dollar figure that represents welfare spending by the church.  Would that change the mind of someone who thinks it is inappropriate for a church to spend more money on commercial development than on humanitarian aid?

 

Among the people in my circles, commercial for-profit development is very antithetical to both scriptural teachings and the four-fold mission of the church.  But the people in my circles may not accurately represent general church membership.

 

Thanks for taking the time to help me understand you better.  I apologize if I came across as argumentative.  I think your questions are legitimate; I just wanted to be sure you were giving the Church full “credit.”  Sometimes folks who look at this forget to at least mentally acknowledge that the Church does not publish much (if any) data about programs like the PEF and Fast Offerings.  As a recently released clerk, I have come to the conclusion that few in the Church realize how substantial these programs are—especially Fast Offerings.

[jwhitlock]

These kinds of projects are going to be perceived by people differently based on their background. However, there are valid reasons why the church would get involved in a project like this. One of them would be that this helps the church become more visible in support of its primary mission. Certainly this or other church projects are not built as a monument to the ego of a single individual. This is a church building and church project, nothing else. As such, it should be considered in the context of what the church is all about. Does it help or hinder the work of the church? While someone can take a short term view and say that money should primarily go to the poor (or whatever priority they have in mind), the church takes a longer term view in considering the impact of these kinds of projects.

 

Renovating inner city properties can certainly have a positive impact on people's lives. As this kind of project benefits a large number of people, and is visible in Philadelphia, it hopefully will serve to soften hearts and help people understand us better for what we really are trying to do, and not for what our critics say. I believe the church is willing to take some short term criticism on something like this because the long term benefits to it and to the city are significant.

 

In effect, this can be a very church-like and positive thing to do. Because of its size, the church can do a project on this scale that is very visible, whereas a smaller church must of necessity be more limiting in its scope. I'm sure this will be a magnet for a variety of things, but it cannot be denied that the potential for long term positive benefit is very real in this case.

[rockpond]

Thanks for taking the time to help me understand you better.  I apologize if I came across as argumentative.  I think your questions are legitimate; I just wanted to be sure you were giving the Church full “credit.”  Sometimes folks who look at this forget to at least mentally acknowledge that the Church does not publish much (if any) data about programs like the PEF and Fast Offerings.  As a recently released clerk, I have come to the conclusion that few in the Church realize how substantial these programs are—especially Fast Offerings.

 

Yep, I've served as financial clerk and am currently a bishop's counselor so I know that the fast offering donations are significant.  I am also extremely appreciative of our ability to help families from those fast offering funds when they are needed.  I have seen great things done.

[Buzzard]

I grew up in Salt Lake City in the 1970's, downtown was a dump. The bus station was only a block west of Temple Square, and another block west you could see prostitutes plying their trade. The church, whether by direct investment such as City Creek, expanding their campus-Conference Center, Main Street Plaza, etc...-, or making very favorable land deals, such as leasing the land the Salt Palace convention center stands on for a dollar a year for 99 years, has gone to great lengths to be a major factor in Salt Lake having a vibrant, prosperous downtown.

In Mesa, the area around the temple was largely residential. It also deteriorated, the church came in, bought the decaying homes, and bulldozed them. However, they have not been able to redevelop them, and a lot of the area right around the Temple is just vacant right now. The neighborhood is older, and it's not the best part of Mesa by any means. You can only buy up so much. The same problem kind of exists in Los Angeles, that area is both very expensive and high crime. 

It looks as though the church wants to ensure, to the extent it can, that the areas right around it's temples, particularly urban ones, do not deteriorate. Putting in upscale projects that they own and control in the immediate environs is one way to accomplish this. 

[Okrahomer]

Agreed.  I don't think it is abundantly clear how to read that figure.  We don't even know if the $1.4B references cash donations only or cash and the "value of monetary assitance" as they have distinguished in previous years.  We don't have a lot of information available.

 

 

I just found this article over on Times & Seasons that may be of interest to you.  I like the fact that the author actually confirmed his conclusions directly with the Church.

[rockpond]

I just found this article over on Times & Seasons that may be of interest to you.  I like the fact that the author actually confirmed his conclusions directly with the Church.

 

I would agree had the author provided a source or an official statement to verify what she was saying.  Instead, she stated her interpretation of the fact sheet (that matched yours, and I agree is probably correct) and then she simply said " I contacted the church today and was able to verify that this is correct."

 

Who did she contact in the church?  What did she ask?  And, how did they answer?

Personally, I do not believe that fast offerings are being included in the $1.4B figure on that sheet.  But I am a proponent of going back to the days when the church disclosed it's financials.

[Calm]

"is one born out of lack of faith where"

Why can't the socalled corporate approach be faith led as well? If church leaders have received revelation to pursue this course, then surely it is one based on faith as going out as a missionary without being concerned where the next meal comes from or trusting that the Lord will provide.

[Storm Rider]

How accurate is this perspective really, when your calculation fails to include an estimate for LDS-aid in all its forms--ex., fast offerings and PEF; or do you feel only the aid we provide to people outside the Church "counts"?

 

Stop throwing water on the fire of discontent.  Better that the church be incapable of having investment funds. Heck, we could sell that expensive oil and use the proceeds to feed the poor....and what was Jesus' response to Judas' complaint?  

[rockpond]

Stop throwing water on the fire of discontent. Better that the church be incapable of having investment funds. Heck, we could sell that expensive oil and use the proceeds to feed the poor....and what was Jesus' response to Judas' complaint?

Has someone here suggested that the church not have investment funds? Strawman.

[BCSpace]

Tenants need not be Mormons to rent an apartment or townhouse in the development, officials said. They said the units would rent at market prices.

 

However, they will be required to sign and live by the Honor Code.

 

[Okrahomer]

I would agree had the author provided a source or an official statement to verify what she was saying.  Instead, she stated her interpretation of the fact sheet (that matched yours, and I agree is probably correct) and then she simply said " I contacted the church today and was able to verify that this is correct."

 

Who did she contact in the church?  What did she ask?  And, how did they answer?

Personally, I do not believe that fast offerings are being included in the $1.4B figure on that sheet.  But I am a proponent of going back to the days when the church disclosed it's financials.

 

Fair enough.  Just as an FYI:  Kaimi (Kaimipono David) Wegner is a Columbia-trained attorney.  Some of his additional comments below the article indicate that he shares your desire for greater transparency in church finances.  I see no reason to distrust him.  You could probably contact him via Times & Seasons to get more detailed information regarding the people he spoke to, etc.

[thesometimesaint]

For me, it's an issue of the mission of the church and the lack of common consent.

 

For some, I believe, it's the ratio of how much we use for humanitarian aid vs. how much we use for real estate development.

 

LDS.org's Welfare Services Fact Sheet

 

The cost of this residential tower in Philadelphia represents over two full years worth of our average humanitarian aid (just to give some perspective to the figures).

 

Put in other terms, the cost of this residential development per member is $8.57 ($120m / 14m members).  Our average annual humanitarian aid per member over the timeframe given in the above fact sheet is $5.04 ($1.4b / 27 years / 10,286,909 avg annual membership over that time period).

 

There has never been a requirement for symmetry.

[Tacenda]

There has never been a requirement for symmetry.

What, more info please, I'm slow today.

[Daniel2]

However, they will be required to sign and live by the Honor Code.

Given the smiley, I assume this comment was at least partially in jest. However, it raises the question as to how much control the church will exert over tenants who rent in the building. Will it rent to unmarried roommates? Alcohol users? Adulterers? Same-sex couples?

[rockpond]

Fair enough. Just as an FYI: Kaimi (Kaimipono David) Wegner is a Columbia-trained attorney. Some of his additional comments below the article indicate that he shares your desire for greater transparency in church finances. I see no reason to distrust him. You could probably contact him via Times & Seasons to get more detailed information regarding the people he spoke to, etc.

Cool... Thanks for the added info.

[rockpond]

There has never been a requirement for symmetry.

Clearly. Nor should there be symmetry between our humanitarian aid and our commercial development activities.

[BCSpace]

Given the smiley, I assume this comment was at least partially in jest. However, it raises the question as to how much control the church will exert over tenants who rent in the building. Will it rent to unmarried roommates? Alcohol users? Adulterers? Same-sex couples?

 

It was partly in jest.  I thought the Honor Code was fine, but hated Student Life and the way they handled enforcement.  But having been in the rental business myself, something like the Honor Code isn't far from necessity if one wants to maintain a reasonably trouble free and attractive environment which increases or at least preserves value.

[Scott Lloyd]

Regarding the inevitable carping that this new event has stirred up about the Church being involved in commercial ventures, Daniel Peterson has a blog post the other day that speaks in a general way to that attitude. (The blog post does not address the office building specifically; it was posted before the news of that broke.)

[BCSpace]

I think scripture, specifically Luke 16:8-11, places somewhat of an obligation on the Church to get involved in business ventures for financial gain.  For example, the Church owns a lot of land.  Why not put it to good use if there is no immediate need for a stake center or a temple?

[rockpond]

I think scripture, specifically Luke 16:8-11, places somewhat of an obligation on the Church to get involved in business ventures for financial gain. For example, the Church owns a lot of land. Why not put it to good use if there is no immediate need for a stake center or a temple?

I think the definition of "good use" for the church is what is being debated.

[rodheadlee]

Rockpond why do you hate construction workers? Would you rather have us on unemployment needing a handout as a poor person or working a job?

[Robert F. Smith]

Bold mine.

 

Answer:  Well, the church is a corporation then.  Neener, neener!

 

I'm only half kidding, I saw this comment, hand delivered to you Storm .  But it kind of makes sense.  Should what this commenter said, concern us?

 

"There are two distinct financial models on the opposite end of the spectrum---the "fish and loaves model" and the "corporate investing model." Jesus unveiled the fish and loaves model where he took what little his kingdom had and distributed it among the least without reservation. In mimetic faith the baskets filled and refilled by those inspired by Jesus; whereas the corporate model is one born out of lack of faith where financial "granaries" are built to SOMEDAY maybe leak out a few usurious portion to the least. The problem with the corporate model is that it is so damn uninspiring and a faithless demonstration that "they" do not trust us to fill the baskets so they invest vatican style. Unwittingly they kill the golden goose--the faith of those adherents that were and are the wellspring of giving."

 

 

And just to add more, I'm milking this ETA!  What about the school in Mexico that the church discontinued and made into an MTC, why not build a new MTC?? 

What many people both in and out of the LDS Church forget is that most of the wealth of the Church is in real estate, and most of that in meetinghouses, temples, and welfare-related industries.  The for-profit end of things (which is taxable by gov't) may give some people pause, but wise investment is what the Lord expects of us, as indicated in the Parable of the Talents (Matt 25:14-30), and wise real estate investment pays big dividends both for individual members who buy homes, or who buy bonds and other relatively safe securities, as well as for the LDS Church, which can then reap a bountiful harvest to use to aid the poor -- which the LDS Welfare system does better than any other Church.  Our welfare expenditures far exceed the per capita expenditures of any other religion, and the individual charitable contributions of Mormons to all sorts of charities is higher than that of other Americans.  See, for example, this article from the Chronicle of Philanthropy, https://philanthropy.com/article/America-s-Generosity-Divide/133775/ .

 

The Loaves and Fishes at the Sermon is a great sign and ritual, but the Kingdom of God on Earth must function responsibly and for the long term.  God demands good stewardship, and we have to deliver.

[strappinglad]

Obviously our faith is lacking. We need to show up at a disaster with 1 blanket , 2 cans of spaghetti , and a bagel and then feed all of the hungry in the area. Who needs thrift and good stewardship when God will provide. Oh, maybe that's how He provides .

[cdowis]

Construction in Philly involves dealing with unions and their thugs.  I'm sure that the church is finding this very costly.  Look what happened to a Quaker meeting house.

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/371514/philadelphias-union-thugs-indicted-jillian-kay-melchior