Stone holm Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 So a second culture battle is heating up as it becomes increasingly clear that the war against homosexuality has been lost, the next appears to be the war over pot. Right now it appears that not for profit lobby groups which have been feeding off the Federal and State War on drugs have been able to keep Congress and State Legislatures paralyzed on reform. As the two States which have gone all in on pot did so by by passing the legislatures via referendums. But this week, the NH State House of Representatives voted for legalization, although their Democratic Governor has vowed to veto the bill in the unlikely event it got past the State Senate. NH a strong libertarian State recently polled 60% in favor of legalization! meanwhile VT polls even higher, but is also paralyzed by State Agencies and Not for Profits who benefit from the war on drugs. So where will the Church wind upon this issue, or since it doesn't involve sex or gender possibly it isn't a moral issue?
JLHPROF Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 So a second culture battle is heating up as it becomes increasingly clear that the war against homosexuality has been lost, the next appears to be the war over pot. Right now it appears that not for profit lobby groups which have been feeding off the Federal and State War on drugs have been able to keep Congress and State Legislatures paralyzed on reform. As the two States which have gone all in on pot did so by by passing the legislatures via referendums. But this week, the NH State House of Representatives voted for legalization, although their Democratic Governor has vowed to veto the bill in the unlikely event it got past the State Senate. NH a strong libertarian State recently polled 60% in favor of legalization! meanwhile VT polls even higher, but is also paralyzed by State Agencies and Not for Profits who benefit from the war on drugs. So where will the Church wind upon this issue, or since it doesn't involve sex or gender possibly it isn't a moral issue? No idea where the church will end up on this, all though I don't think they would accept it, nor should they.However, I don't see this as having ANY bearing on the Word of Wisdom, since it's not mentioned, except possibly in the "mild herbs" clause.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Like booze and nicotine cigarettes, marijuana is harmful. Not as harmful as booze and a range of more powerful illegal drugs, but harmful nonetheless. It is doctrine in some circles that marijuana is a precursor drug to the more powerful drugs. For the doctrinaire believer that all illegal drugs should remain illegal, there is no room for discussion -- even though National Review just came out in favor of legalization of pot, and has declared the long-time war on drugs a failure, something which their late editor (William F. Buckley) tried in vain to get people to understand. See http://m.nationalreview.com/article/367618/sensible-weed-editors . The much bigger issue is illegal recreational drug use in general. Current policy is criminalizing large numbers of people who would not otherwise be jailed or in prison (at enormous costs -- fully half of all prison inmates are there for drug-related offenses). The LDS Church has some excellent programs for helping addicts get off of drugs, and sending them to prison is not the way. 1
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 No idea where the church will end up on this, all though I don't think they would accept it, nor should they.However, I don't see this as having ANY bearing on the Word of Wisdom, since it's not mentioned, except possibly in the "mild herbs" clause. The Word of Wisdom has been expanded from the original text. The use of recreational drugs is generally prohibited and I do not think that will change due to legalization. It has not in other areas where it is quasi-legal or even legal. It is an interesting thing. Federal Law has supremacy over State Law and on the federal level it is still illegal. Obama has advised federal agencies not to enforce these laws where it contradicts state law. I don't think this stalemate can continue forever. I do think the war on drugs is going nowhere. Having the highest per capita rate of people incarcerated in the world (with the possible exception of North Korea) you know that something is off. I also am pretty disgusted at the whole privatization of prisons thing. We now have people outside the government with a vested profit motive in locking as many people as possible. Kind of sick. 3
Bikeemikey Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 The Word of Wisdom has been expanded from the original text. The use of recreational drugs is generally prohibited and I do not think that will change due to legalization. It has not in other areas where it is quasi-legal or even legal. It is an interesting thing. Federal Law has supremacy over State Law and on the federal level it is still illegal. Obama has advised federal agencies not to enforce these laws where it contradicts state law. I don't think this stalemate can continue forever. I do think the war on drugs is going nowhere. Having the highest per capita rate of people incarcerated in the world (with the possible exception of North Korea) you know that something is off. I also am pretty disgusted at the whole privatization of prisons thing. We now have people outside the government with a vested profit motive in locking as many people as possible. Kind of sick. Private prisons are a disgrace to any judicial criminal system.
BlueDreams Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 So a second culture battle is heating up as it becomes increasingly clear that the war against homosexuality has been lost, the next appears to be the war over pot. Right now it appears that not for profit lobby groups which have been feeding off the Federal and State War on drugs have been able to keep Congress and State Legislatures paralyzed on reform. As the two States which have gone all in on pot did so by by passing the legislatures via referendums. But this week, the NH State House of Representatives voted for legalization, although their Democratic Governor has vowed to veto the bill in the unlikely event it got past the State Senate. NH a strong libertarian State recently polled 60% in favor of legalization! meanwhile VT polls even higher, but is also paralyzed by State Agencies and Not for Profits who benefit from the war on drugs. So where will the Church wind upon this issue, or since it doesn't involve sex or gender possibly it isn't a moral issue? I think the only moral issue is whether the cost is worth the benefits. The cost include broken households, disproportionate treatment of those in lower class and by race, and groups of people with a large employment disadvantage when they leave jail because of their records. To me it's like being against homosexual acts, infidelity, etc but not wanting to criminalize, track, and try to heavily enforce a law against these either. With luv,BD
JLHPROF Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 The Word of Wisdom has been expanded from the original text. Uh, no. The prophets may have given us additional guidelines, but that doesn't make them part of the Word of Wisdom.In the same way the Proclamation on family doesn't get added to the end of D&C 132 on marriage. Further light and a new or additional revelation, sure, but the WOW is a specific revelation and not to be altered. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 I think the only moral issue is whether the cost is worth the benefits. The cost include broken households, disproportionate treatment of those in lower class and by race, and groups of people with a large employment disadvantage when they leave jail because of their records. To me it's like being against homosexual acts, infidelity, etc but not wanting to criminalize, track, and try to heavily enforce a law against these either. With luv,BD Agreed.
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Uh, no. The prophets may have given us additional guidelines, but that doesn't make them part of the Word of Wisdom.In the same way the Proclamation on family doesn't get added to the end of D&C 132 on marriage. Further light and a new or additional revelation, sure, but the WOW is a specific revelation and not to be altered. Not true. We have amended it many times to fit the needs of the Saints. BTW Strychnine isn't specifically mentioned in the WoW either, but it still isn't a good idea to ingest it.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) If there are compounds in marijuana which provide specific benefits (e.g., compounds that relieve pain, are anti-emetic, which promote appetite among those whose treatments otherwise would leave them emaciated, and so on) I would promote legalization for the narrow purpose of isolating and studying those compounds and their purported effects. But there's an old saying that even if one picks up a snake by the tail, one picks up its head, as well. I don't think it's wise to pretend that this "snake" doesn't have a head just because we want to pick it up by the tail. It's not as though marijuana doesn't have any harmful, potentially unpleasant, or unintended side effects, and anyone who insists otherwise essentially is saying he wants to pick up a snake by the tail without regard for whether the snake might turn on him. Marijuana has compounds with purportedly-beneficial effects. Fine: isolate those compounds, test them to provide empirical data for their effectiveness, standardize their production, and make them available for medicinal purposes. Edited January 18, 2014 by Kenngo1969
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 If there are compounds in marijuana which provide specific benefits (e.g., compounds that relieve pain, are anti-emetic, which promote appetite among those whose treatments otherwise would leave them emaciated, and so on) I would promote legalization for the narrow purpose of isolating and studying those compounds and their purported effects. But there's an old saying that even if one picks up a snake by the tail, one picks up its head, as well. I don't think it's wise to pretend that this "snake" doesn't have a head just because we want to pick it up by the tail. It's not as though marijuana doesn't have any harmful, potentially unpleasant, or unintended side effects, and anyone who insists otherwise essentially is saying he wants to pick up a snake by the tail without regard for whether the snake might turn on him. Marijuana has compounds with purportedly-beneficial effects. Fine: isolate those compounds, test them to provide empirical data for their effectiveness, standardize their production, and make them available for medicinal purposes. Maybe. However If that were the case then every single drug ever made would have to be taken off the market. For the reason that every single drug has side effects that can and do harm some people.
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Uh, no. The prophets may have given us additional guidelines, but that doesn't make them part of the Word of Wisdom.In the same way the Proclamation on family doesn't get added to the end of D&C 132 on marriage. Further light and a new or additional revelation, sure, but the WOW is a specific revelation and not to be altered.Uh, yes. These guidelines are always referred to as part of the Word of Wisdom in everywhere from lesson manuals to missionary discussions to general conference talks,
strappinglad Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 I understand that the potency of MJ today is much stronger than that in the 60s. My opinion is that this is the result of making it illegal. When something is illegal, but is desired then the money to be made on it is enormous and leads to gangs, cartels, political influence etc. and in order to keep the addicts fed, the potency must increase. With alcohol, one has always been able to purchase 200 proof but it is an " acquired taste" . With no regulation, illegal drugs are hit and miss as to potency and the possibility of deadly foreign substances mixed in increases. Education,treatment and the strong enforcement of laws regarding public abuse of drugs is better than locking up folks for possession.
JLHPROF Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Not true. We have amended it many times to fit the needs of the Saints. BTW Strychnine isn't specifically mentioned in the WoW either, but it still isn't a good idea to ingest it. Uh, yes. These guidelines are always referred to as part of the Word of Wisdom in everywhere from lesson manuals to missionary discussions to general conference talks, Ok, I'll say it again. The prophets can give us further instruction - (no strychnine for instance) but the WOW is a finite document.I am not arguing that there are further things that are taught to fit the needs of the saints or additional guidelines give. I am arguing that the WOW is a specific revelation contained in D&C 89. These guidelines are not part of that document and therefore are not part of WOW. I don't care what the lesson manuals or missionary documents say. If it's not in D&C 89 it's not part of the WOW. It may still be true and revelation, but it's not part of the actual WOW and should not be labelled such.
Danzo Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 While I am not in favor of criminalizing drug use, Making something illegal is not the same as criminalizing it. Most things that are illegal are not criminalized.
Stone holm Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 Are recreational drugs per se immoral?
Garden Girl Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) No idea where the church will end up on this, all though I don't think they would accept it, nor should they.However, I don't see this as having ANY bearing on the Word of Wisdom, since it's not mentioned, except possibly in the "mild herbs" clause. Hello JLHP...IMO just because something isn't "mentioned" in the Word of Wisdom doesn't mean we shouldn't use our common sense... i..e., consider not just the "letter" of the law but the "spirit" of the law as it applies to today's substances... most of the new products that we have that might qualify weren't even contemplated or on the horizon when the WoW was given... for instance marajuana/drugs, energy drinks, wine coolers, 16 ounce steaks, supersize colas, etc. etc. We would be a much healthier and less obese nation if we lived the spirit of the WoW and followed a diet/exercise plan of mainly natural foods based on whole grains, fresh veggies, fruits, fish...limited red meat, sugars/carbs, etc. And judge each new or popular product in that spirit. Common sense based on the overall guide of the WoW.. GG Edited January 18, 2014 by Garden Girl
teddyaware Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Hello JLHP...IMO just because something isn't "mentioned" in the Word of Wisdom doesn't mean we shouldn't use our common sense... i..e., consider not just the "letter" of the law but the "spirit" of the law as it applies to today's substances... most of the new products that we have that might qualify weren't even contemplated or on the horizon when the WoW was given... for instance marajuana/drugs, energy drinks, wine coolers, 16 ounce steaks, supersize colas, etc. etc. We would be a much healthier and less obese nation if we lived the spirit of the WoW and followed a diet/exercise plan of mainly natural foods based on whole grains, fresh veggies, fruits, fish...limited red meat, sugars/carbs, etc. And judge each new or popular product in that spirit. Common sense based on the overall guide of the WoW.. GG Bullseye! Edited January 18, 2014 by teddyaware
rpn Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 The last time the church took a stance on legislation prohibiting alcohol in UTAH (I think it was Heber J Grant who asked members to vote to continue prohibiting it), members nevertheless passed it. Use of alcohol, tobacco or marijuana has never been a sin (violating covenants may well be, however). I'd be real surprised if the church took any position at all on legalization of marijuana. I'm in the --- stupid to spend so much money putting people in jail over possession or use of drugs --- group of citizens. But I have no problem putting people in jail for selling it or importing it.
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 I understand that the potency of MJ today is much stronger than that in the 60s. My opinion is that this is the result of making it illegal. When something is illegal, but is desired then the money to be made on it is enormous and leads to gangs, cartels, political influence etc. and in order to keep the addicts fed, the potency must increase.With alcohol, one has always been able to purchase 200 proof but it is an " acquired taste" . With no regulation, illegal drugs are hit and miss as to potency and the possibility of deadly foreign substances mixed in increases. Education,treatment and the strong enforcement of laws regarding public abuse of drugs is better than locking up folks for possession. Not in the US. It takes a special license from the Feds just to have it. "Everclear" is the highest proof alcoholic beverage available on the market. It is up to 190 Proof, or 95% pure alcohol.SEE https://us.vwr.com/store/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=7756054
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Ok, I'll say it again. The prophets can give us further instruction - (no strychnine for instance) but the WOW is a finite document.I am not arguing that there are further things that are taught to fit the needs of the saints or additional guidelines give. I am arguing that the WOW is a specific revelation contained in D&C 89. These guidelines are not part of that document and therefore are not part of WOW. I don't care what the lesson manuals or missionary documents say. If it's not in D&C 89 it's not part of the WOW. It may still be true and revelation, but it's not part of the actual WOW and should not be labelled such. I don't believe anyone is disagreeing with what the WoW actually says. It is the application that may or may not get us into trouble. We're neither, nor have we ever been Scriptural literalists.
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Ok, I'll say it again. The prophets can give us further instruction - (no strychnine for instance) but the WOW is a finite document.I am not arguing that there are further things that are taught to fit the needs of the saints or additional guidelines give. I am arguing that the WOW is a specific revelation contained in D&C 89. These guidelines are not part of that document and therefore are not part of WOW. I don't care what the lesson manuals or missionary documents say. If it's not in D&C 89 it's not part of the WOW. It may still be true and revelation, but it's not part of the actual WOW and should not be labelled such. Myself and Apostles and Prophets and LDS.org all also disagree with you and often refer to the added bits as part of the Word of Wisdom. I will continue to label it as such and so will pretty much everyone else.
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 The last time the church took a stance on legislation prohibiting alcohol in UTAH (I think it was Heber J Grant who asked members to vote to continue prohibiting it), members nevertheless passed it. Use of alcohol, tobacco or marijuana has never been a sin (violating covenants may well be, however). I'd be real surprised if the church took any position at all on legalization of marijuana. I'm in the --- stupid to spend so much money putting people in jail over possession or use of drugs --- group of citizens. But I have no problem putting people in jail for selling it or importing it. According to itself he Word of Wisdom is a temporary commandment given for our day and our conditions. It did not apply in the past and can be rescinded in the future. It also specifically applies to the saints and not to the world at large. For a non-member drinking alcohol is not a sin. What they do while under the influence and what circumstances they put themselves in due to drinking or the quantity they drink might be.
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