The Interpreters: Inverted? Folding? Held By A Handle?

[DonBradley]

All,

 

I'm looking for information about the Nephite interpreters / Urim and Thummim for my book on the lost 116 pages and for a paper I'm currently finishing for publication comparing how Joseph Smith used his scrying instruments with how his contemporaries used optical technologies (like spectacles).  Specifically, I'm trying to solve some puzzles on how the interpreters were structured and used:

 

*Did the interpreters have inverted triangular lenses?

 

*Did the interpreters fold up?

 

*Did Joseph hold the interpreters in front of his eyes by hand, using the attached rod?  Was this rod used or referred to as a handle?

 

___________________________________________________

 

1. *Did the interpreters have inverted triangular lenses?

 

I found this quote on various websites.  I'm not sure where it originally came from:

 

Some understood the two triangle stones of celestial material, actually prepared by the Lord (Mosiah 28:13-14); set in glass, one upright, the other on its tip, when superimposed one on the other to form the Star of David, an apt symbol of the Urim and Thummim. Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris, were to testify that he had seen them. (D&C 17:2-5)

 

 

It indicates that the interpreters had triangle lenses (agreeing with Lucy Mack Smith) that faced opposite directions, like this:

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________

 

 

2. *Did the interpreters fold up?

 

The statement above claims the lenses of the interpreters could be superimposed, implying that the frame of the interpreters may have folded over itself, like scissors.

 

While some accounts would call this into question, since they imply the lenses were too far apart for Joseph's eyes (and therefore presumably not adjustable), Lucy Mack Smith refers to the interpreters as being "like old-fashioned spectacles," which often came in scissor frames, like so:

 

 

 

So, I'm wondering, where do these ideas come from--that the interpreters lenses were inverted relative to one another, and that their frame could be folded to super-impose them?  Can anyone point to sources that would tend to confirm these ideas?

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

3. Did Joseph hold the interpreters in front of his eyes by hand, using the attached rod?  Was this rod used or referred to as a handle?

 

Note also (per the first image) that the rod which could be attached to the interpreters, and also to the breastplate, could easily be used as a handle to hold the interpreters in front of the eyes.  Some "old-fashioned spectacles" still in use in Joseph's day were used in this way.  Since Joseph thought of the interpreters as "spectacles," and even called them such, did he ever do this?  Did he use his "spectacles" in the way he was familiar with from his contemporaries?  I'm wondering if there are any sources that refer to this rod as a handle or talk about Joseph holding the interpreters in front of his eyes (rather than just attaching it to the breastplate).

 

I'm utterly fascinated by all these ideas--of the inverted triangle lenses, of the folding interpreters, and of the interpreters being held by a handle.  And, if they have a plausible basis, I'd like to work them into my paper and my book.

 

Can you see any evidence for any of these three things about the interpreters?

 

Naturally, if any of you can help me identify evidence for these, I'll credit you in my paper and book accordingly.  

 

Don

[Duncan]

oh man, I seem to recall reading  a paper on this years ago but I hope it'll come to me to help you out!

[Duncan]

I take that back, I think it was about the spindles in the Liahona...

[JAHS]

Here's someone's idea of what they looked like (scroll down to photo) plus some info about it. I had always assumed they were used while attached to the breastplate

 

http://oneclimbs.com/2013/01/07/piercing-the-veil-temple-worship-in-the-lost-116-pages/

[Robert F. Smith]

A few things should be considered, Don,

1. The context of the relics which Joseph removed from the stone box on 1 Tishri 1827 (Jewish New Year = Sept 22, Autumnal Equinox and New Moon) certainly included Gold Plates, Breastplate, and Jaredite & Nephite Interpreters (JS-H 1:34-35,52,59), but probably not the Sword of Laban and Liahona (Directors) -- D&C 17:1.

2. Based on the description of the Interpreters as "spectacles," one might want to observe that Galileo's telescope was termed "spectacles" during the Renaissance (F. Yates, The Rosicrucian Enlightenment, 107, citing G. Naude, Instruction [1623], 24).  Other definitions are available in the OED.

3. The description of the Interpreters, or Seers (2 stones in twisted silver bows and fastened to the Breastplate) does suggest a handle of some sort, and reminds me of the handle on a lorgnette (invented by optician George Adams in the 18th century), on which see the description and illustrations at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorgnette , and http://www.google.com/search?q=lorgnette&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=o4TQUu32KMzzoATA5IDwCg&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1116&bih=709 .  The difference is the stones were, as you say, like three cornered transparent diamonds.  They were smooth.

4. Lucy even had Joseph receiving the spectacles again on Sept 22, 1828, after the Harris hiatus (Lavina Fielding Anderson, Lucy’s Book: A Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith’s Family Memoir [SLC: Signature Books, 2001], 428). 

5.  This is reminiscent of the looking-glasses supposedly found in the Amphitheater of Eternal Wisdom, i.e., the allegorical cave-tomb of an undecayed Christian Rosencreutz (the figure central to Rosicrucianism).

6.  Wikipedia says that "Cornelis Van Dam of the Theological Colleges of the Canadian Reformed Churches published a book titled The Urim and Thummim: A Means of Revelation in Ancient Israel [Eisenbrauns, 1997], in which he examines a new possible role of these ancient Israelite objects. Van Dam puts forth the idea that the Urim and Thummim were actually used in ancient Israel as a means of receiving revelation from God." 

7. In the broader Mesopotamian context, Geo Widengren described the numinous heavenly tablets (dupšīmatī) which go together with the lot-casting equipment (nadū parsē).  In ancient Mesopotamian religion, these heavenly tablets were central to the annual royal enthronment ritual, the king receiving the book at his ascension into the assembly of the gods (puhru ilani), and also receiving the cedar staff (symbol of the Tree of Life) and oracles.  These tablets are the tablets of destiny, wisdom, of the mystery of heaven & earth, etc.  In the Babylonian Enuma elish IV, 121-122, for example, the assembly of the gods under Marduk meets at the New Year Festival in the Chamber of Destiny and "decides the fate of the coming year," having conquered Kingu (the husband of Tiamat) and taking the tablets from him (cf. Laban) and affixing them to Marduk's breast.  The numinous tablets are carried thus in a pouch or bag (takāltu), in which they are sealed (kunukku).  All rulers receive the cosmic relics at enthronement, as with Mosiah II (Mosiah 1:16) and Joseph Smith, Jr.  The ruler is thereby commissioned to slay the enemy, even Labbu.  Again the ritual association of the slaying of Laban by Nephi is inescapable, even including the similarity of name of the evil entity!  All of this likewise is part of the call of a prophet, as John W. Welch has shown in his study of the call of Lehi.  Geo Widengren, The Ascension of the Apostle and the Heavenly Book (King and Saviour III) (1950), 11, 87, 89; cf. the "taking of the lots (oracles)" (parsa lequ) ceremony = "consultation of the oracles" (šitūltu, parsi ilqi); Sumerian ME = Akkadian parsu (parsē),"oracle, lot, allotment, ordinance; plan of oracle" (tērēti = Hebrew tora).

[JulieM]

One thing to take note of is that the terms "Urim and Thummim" were not used until 1833 when W.W. Phelps used them in speculation for what the instrument might be (in the publication "The Evening and Morning Star"). These terms were not in the 1833 edition of the Book of Commandments but had been added in the 1835 edition. As far as I know, even Joseph Smith never used these term until 1833.

[juliann]

 

6.  Wikipedia says that "Cornelis Van Dam of the Theological Colleges of the Canadian Reformed Churches published a book titled The Urim and Thummim: A Means of Revelation in Ancient Israel [Eisenbrauns, 1997], in which he examines a new possible role of these ancient Israelite objects. Van Dam puts forth the idea that the Urim and Thummim were actually used in ancient Israel as a means of receiving revelation from God." 

 

I have this book if you need it.   I don't remember what I was using it for but these are quotes I data based:

 

 

Augustine (354-430) offers the interpretation of letters written on the breastpiece as one of two possible interpretations in Quaestiones Exodi 117.  He writes that “it is possible for Showing and Truth (UT) to be understood as placed on the logion with letters.:  (26)

 

We have seen that when the UT are identified with the gems of the breastpiece, light is often associated with them.  4QpIsad  I 4-6 can be interpreted in this way. Josephus clearly links a miraculous light with the divine revelation (Ant. 3.216-18).  The oracular shining or dimming of a stone on the breastpiece is also found in subsequent Jewish and Samaritan tradition.  (31)

 

The idea that revelation by means of the UT involved divine inspiration is very old and widespread.  (32)

 

     An important aspect of receiving revelation from God by means of the UT is that the initiative lay with man, not God. . . The high priest was to inquire for the leader of the God’s people (Num 27:21).  On such a momentous occasion, the high priest was to be dressed in his official garments, for they contained the UT (Exod 28:30, Lev 8:8; also see m. Yoma 7.5; b. Yoma 72b) .  The inquirer was not to speak in a loud voice but “with his lips,” that is, whispering (Sipre Num. 27:21).  (194)

     Exactly how the decision or judgment (mispat) of the Urim was obtained is unknown, but it is obvious that the Urim was involved.  (195)

 

If the UT were involved as a means in the process of God’s imparting revelation, they must have been handled in some way.  Some evidence for the UT’s being taken or touched by the hand of the priest is found in 1 Sam 14:19. (196)

 

After Joshua, until the time of David, the UT constituted an increasingly important means of revelation.  As Israel through its leaders made use of the possibility of inquiring of God through the agency of the high priest and to receive direction from him with the use of the UT, Yahweh guided his people in numerous ways.  He directed the military efforts of Israel, (Judg 1:1; compare 1 Sam 14:36-37), humbled and punished his people in the conflict against Benjamin (Judge 2018-36), confirmed Saul as king (1 Sam 10:22), guided matters of state (1 Sam 23:2, 4, 10-12; 30:8; 2 Sam 2:1-4).    p269.

 

According to my theory and interpretation of the biblical evidence respecting the identity of the UT, the UT probably consisted of a single gem, and the name can best be understood as ‘perfect light’. A miraculous light verified that the message given by the high priest was indeed from God.  p230

 

 

 

He also says that if the UT isn't a lot oracle but is closely connected to prophecy then it is bringing two elements together, prophecy and priesthood, that have been separated in biblical scholarship.

 

Also used this:

 

 

Again, examples from other cultures show how interpretation, even the interpretation of texts, can be part of the function of a diviner.

Thomas W. Overholt, Channels of Prophecy: The Social Dynamics of Prophetic Activity (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1989),  131,

 

 

And I have this book referenced under the same topic but I don't remember what was in it....

 

Menahem Haran, Temples and Temple Service in Ancient Israel: An Inquiry into Biblical Cult Phenomena and the Historical Setting of the Priestly School (Winona Lake, Indiana: Eisenbrauns, 1985)

Edited January 11, 2014 by juliann

[DonBradley]

Thanks, everyone!

 

Bob...

 

 

 

Hmm!

[ALarson]

One thing to take note of is that the terms "Urim and Thummim" were not used until 1833 when W.W. Phelps used them in speculation for what the instrument might be (in the publication "The Evening and Morning Star"). These terms were not in the 1833 edition of the Book of Commandments but had been added in the 1835 edition. As far as I know, even Joseph Smith never used these term until 1833.

This is true.  IIRC, the interpreters were used for translation of the lost 116 pages and then the peep stone in the hat method was used for the Book of Mormon that we have today.  I believe both Emma and David Whitmer stated this.  After 1833, the terms Urim and Thummim were used for the peep stone and this becomes confusing..  Writings were also then backdated inserting these terms.

 

Here's more information on this and also the confusion regarding calling the peep stone the Urim and Thummim:

 

"It is notable that the term 'Urim and Thummi' is not found in the Book of Mormon and was never used by Joseph Smith with reference to producing the Book of Mormon until after 1833. In that year, a close associate of Smith, W.W. Phelps, speculated that the ancient Nephite interpreters mentioned in the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith might be the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament. Phelps wrote in the LDS publication The Evening and Morning Star (Jan. 1833) that the Book of Mormon had been translated, 'through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles (known perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim). Phelps words, 'known perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummin' show that it was merely speculation on his part that associated Josephs magic seer stone with the biblical Urim and Thummim. 

Phelps' speculation gained quick popularity to the point where LDS writers used the term Urim and Thummim to refer to both the mystical interpreters Joseph Smith said were with the gold plates, and to the seer stone Joseph placed in his hat while dictating the Book of Mormon. As a result, many LDS writings used the term Urim and Thummim synonymously for seer stone.

An example of this confusion of the terms is provided by the tenth President of the LDS church, Joseph Fielding Smith:

'The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.'"

Edited January 11, 2014 by ALarson

[MichelleD]

This is true.  IIRC, the interpreters were used for translation of the lost 116 pages and then the peep stone in the hat method was used for the Book of Mormon that we have today.  I believe both Emma and David Whitmer stated this.  After 1833, the terms Urim and Thummim were used for the peep stone and this becomes confusing..  Writings were also then backdated inserting these terms.

 

Here's more information on this and also the confusion regarding calling the peep stone the Urim and Thummim:

 

"It is notable that the term 'Urim and Thummi' is not found in the Book of Mormon and was never used by Joseph Smith with reference to producing the Book of Mormon until after 1833. In that year, a close associate of Smith, W.W. Phelps, speculated that the ancient Nephite interpreters mentioned in the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith might be the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament. Phelps wrote in the LDS publication The Evening and Morning Star (Jan. 1833) that the Book of Mormon had been translated, 'through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles (known perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim). Phelps words, 'known perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummin' show that it was merely speculation on his part that associated Josephs magic seer stone with the biblical Urim and Thummim. Phelps' speculation gained quick popularity to the point where LDS writers used the term Urim and Thummim to refer to both the mystical interpreters Joseph Smith said were with the gold plates, and to the seer stone Joseph placed in his hat while dictating the Book of Mormon. As a result, many LDS writings used the term Urim and Thummim synonymously for seer stone.An example of this confusion of the terms is provided by the tenth President of the LDS church, Joseph Fielding Smith:'The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.'"

Wow, that is fascinating!

Don, I hope you include this information and clarifications in your writings.

Did Joseph Smith ever get the intuerpreters back after they were taken away from him?

I really feel that most active members still believe that the Urim and Thummim (interpreters that were with the gold plates) were used to translate the entire Book of Mormon. If they weren't returned after the lost 116 pages incident, I guess that was impossible (if that's the case). I do feel the church is trying to clarify all of this with the release of their new essay on this topic and I think that's great.

[ALarson]

Don, I have a  couple of questions that I hope you can answer.  Do you believe that only the Nephite interpreter was used to translate the lost 116 pages, or do you believe the seer stone (from the Chase well) was also used for these pages?  I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

 

Also, do you believe the "Urim & Thummim" that is mentioned in the Old Testament (7 times although sometimes only "Urim" is used), is the same instrument as the interpreter that Joseph Smith used for the 116 pages?  (Here are the references: Exodus 28:30; Ezra 2:63; Leviticus 8:8; Nehemia 7:65; Deuteronomy 33:8; 1 Samuel 28:6; and Numbers 27:21) 

Edited January 11, 2014 by ALarson

[DonBradley]

The sources show that both instruments were used for translating the lost pages.  When Joseph dictated the first part of the Book of Lehi to Emma, he dictated using the stone in the hat--as her own interview account indicates.  Later Joseph dictated to Martin from the interpreters.  This is documented in detail in the book.

 

The interpreters Joseph used were not the biblical Urim and Thummim, but were a Urim and Thummim, so to speak.  They were the two stones given the brother of Jared on the mount, as D&C 17:1 indicates. But they are obviously parallel to the biblical high priest's revelatory instrument, so it's no surprise that early Mormons (and D&C 17) call them the Urim and Thummim.

 

Don

[DonBradley]

BTW, several sources say Joseph didn't get the interpreters back after the loss of the manuscript and translated the rest with the seer stone.  We know he used the seer stone in his hat for many parts of the book.  We have this testimony from Emma, Martin, David Whitmer, Joseph Knight, and numerous others.  I believe I have all this in my chapter on the translation (Chapter 3).

 

Don

[theplains]

BTW, several sources say Joseph didn't get the interpreters back after the loss of the manuscript and translated the rest with the seer stone.  We know he used the seer stone in his hat for many parts of the book.

 

If the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon was translated "by the gift and power of God,

by the [assistance or] means of the Urim and Thummim” (GC, April 1995, Robert K.

Dellenbach), why were there many subsequent changes made?  Where these changes

made based on english grammar or were the plates present for a re-translation?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[JulieM]

BTW, several sources say Joseph didn't get the interpreters back after the loss of the manuscript and translated the rest with the seer stone.  We know he used the seer stone in his hat for many parts of the book.  We have this testimony from Emma, Martin, David Whitmer, Joseph Knight, and numerous others.  I believe I have all this in my chapter on the translation (Chapter 3).

 

Don

Thanks for the information, Don. Do you have a belief or theory for what other means of translation Joseph used? If he only used the seer stone in the hat "for many parts of the book" (as you state above), what method of translation did Joseph use for the remaining parts?

[cinepro]

I wonder if this is the only Church-produced image of Joseph with the U&T:

 

 

It was in "The Book of Mormon Reader" that the Church produced for children until the about 20 years ago.

[Calm]

I have seen another one but it was from at least the 80s, my memory says it was in the old picture set for not the last YM/ YWs manuals, but the previous ones...if not that, then the older Primary groups (which I never taught with that set of manuals but only went through collecting pictures that weren't used in the new manuals to save as a reference).

Though now that I am trying to visualise it, it may have been just the instrument without Joseph using it.

[Robert F. Smith]

Thanks, everyone!

 

Bob...

 

 

 

Hmm!

You might also be interested in Hugh Nibley's comment in Dialogue, 3/2 (Summer 1968):104, on the two stones, Wr & Tm worn around the neck of the High Priest of Re at Heliopolis, Egypt.  That High Priest was known as the "Great Seer" (Wr-m3w), and you can see his name with the two stones in Alan Gardiner, Ancient Egyptian Onomastica, I, 36*, and II, 267*; and Urkunden IV:1542:16 (either the 1st or 2nd ed, of Kurt Sethe and W. Helck,  Urkunden der 18. Dynastie, historisch-biographische Urkunden).

 

Since he had been an amateur astronomer as a boy, Nibley also commented that the description of the Urim & Thummim in Abraham 3:1,4, sounded like the ocular and objective lenses of a telescope (Nibley, "Phase One," Dialogue, 3/2:104).  I'll send you a short chapter on all that via email immediately.

[Wiki Wonka]

Wow, that is fascinating!

Don, I hope you include this information and clarifications in your writings.

Did Joseph Smith ever get the intuerpreters back after they were taken away from him?

I really feel that most active members still believe that the Urim and Thummim (interpreters that were with the gold plates) were used to translate the entire Book of Mormon. If they weren't returned after the lost 116 pages incident, I guess that was impossible (if that's the case). I do feel the church is trying to clarify all of this with the release of their new essay on this topic and I think that's great.

 

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints confirmed that the term "Urim and Thummim" only came into use after 1833.

 

 

 

The proofs are clear and positive that the story of the Urim and Thummim Translation does not date back, for its origin further than 1833, or between that date and 1835; for it is not found in any printed document of the Church of Christ up to the latter part of the year 1833, or the year 1834. The “Book of Commandments” to the Church of Christ, published in Independence, Mo., in 1833, does not contain any allusion to Urim and Thummim; though the term was inserted in some of the revelations in their reprint in the “Book of Doctrine and Covenants” in 1835.

 

 

The quote is from The True Latter Day Saints’ Herald, 26/22 (15 November 1879) and is quoted in "The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat and the Book" in Interpreter; A Journal of Mormon Scripture, Vol. 5.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-spectacles-the-stone-the-hat-and-the-book-a-twenty-first-century-believers-view-of-the-book-of-mormon-translation/

Edited January 12, 2014 by Wiki Wonka

[JulieM]

Are there any statements from eyewitnesses who actually saw Joseph using the interpreters?

[Wiki Wonka]

Are there any statements from eyewitnesses who actually saw Joseph using the interpreters?

 

I'm not aware of anyone who saw him use the Nephite interpreters to translate. There are plenty of witnesses who saw him using the seer stone in the hat. He could have been using the Nephite interpreters in the hat: I'm not sure that anyone would know which instrument he had in there. The following is from the Church essay "Book of Mormon Translation" in Gospel Topics on lds.org.

 

 

According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.

 

 

http://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

Edited January 13, 2014 by Wiki Wonka

[JulieM]

I'm not aware of anyone who saw him use the Nephite interpreters to translate. There are plenty of witnesses who saw him using the seer stone in the hat. He could have been using the Nephite interpreters in the hat: I'm not sure that anyone would know which instrument he had in there. The following is from the Church essay "Book of Mormon Translation" in Gospel Topics on lds.org.

 

 

 

http://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

Thank you for the response.

If I understand what you're saying, Joseph could have used the seer stone OR the interpreters in the hat to translate the 116 pages but we know he only used the seer stone (when using the hat) to translate the entire Book of Mormon we have today. I wish that had been made more clear in the essay, but overall I feel it was very well written.

[longview]

I thought I saw a quote somewhere in the past year that Joseph Smith much preferred using the Interpreter than the stone from the well.  It seems he gained greater knowledge in a more rapid and comprehensive manner.  Did he lose the privilege of using the interpreter after giving away the 116 page manuscript?  Does anyone know the reference for this?

[ALarson]

I thought I saw a quote somewhere in the past year that Joseph Smith much preferred using the Interpreter than the stone from the well.  It seems he gained greater knowledge in a more rapid and comprehensive manner.  Did he lose the privilege of using the interpreter after giving away the 116 page manuscript?  Does anyone know the reference for this?

 

Here is one quote regarding how the interpreter was taken and not returned.  I think most historians believe that is the case.  This quote is from David Whitmer (when he was asked if Joseph had used the peep stone to translate the Book of Mormon):

:

... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English. 

[Wiki Wonka]

Thank you for the response.

If I understand what you're saying, Joseph could have used the seer stone OR the interpreters in the hat to translate the 116 pages but we know he only used the seer stone (when using the hat) to translate the entire Book of Mormon we have today. I wish that had been made more clear in the essay, but overall I feel it was very well written.

 

I think that the Church purposely worded the essay to allow the possibility that either the Nephite interpreters or the seer stone were in the hat during the translation process. There are a few accounts which indicate that Joseph placed the interpreters in the hat. For example, here is an account from Martin Harris (I am this time pulling text from the Interpreter essay "The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat and the Book," not the Church essay).

 

 

 

Martin Harris also provided a description of the translation process. Martin granted an interview to Joel Tiffany in 1859, in which he described the translation instrument that we commonly know as the Urim and Thummim.

 

The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at the centre; but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eighths of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make eight inches. The stones were white, like polished marble, with a few gray streaks. I never dared to look into them by placing them in the hat, because Moses said that “no man could see God and live,” and we could see anything we [Page 130]wished by looking into them; and I could not keep the desire to see God out of my mind. And beside, we had a command to let no man look into them, except by the command of God, lest he should “look aught and perish.”12

 

This description is quite interesting, because Harris describes placing the Nephite interpreters in the hat, rather than a stone. 

 

 

Footnote 12 references “Martin Harris Interview with Joel Tiffany, 1859,” in Early Mormon Documents, 2:305.