"miraculous" Anti Conversion Stories

[boblloyd91]

So I regularly read realclearreligion.org, and recently read an article that was linked to Christianity Today about a woman named Lynn Wilder whose entire family left the Church when she said her son who came back from his mission said he read the bible and told the family that Mormonism wasn't true. From what I gather Lynn claimed to have a "born again" experience which implied that she needed Jesus and nothing else. Has anybody heard of this story? I guess I'm having a hard time with confusion because I know of or have read numerous experiences of people led to the Church in miraculous or otherwise clear ways. Because of this, I'm wondering what everyone's perspective is. Why do so many sincere people get so many clear, differing answers?

[JLHPROF]

So I regularly read realclearreligion.org, and recently read an article that was linked to Christianity Today about a woman named Lynn Wilder whose entire family left the Church when she said her son who came back from his mission said he read the bible and told the family that Mormonism wasn't true. From what I gather Lynn claimed to have a "born again" experience which implied that she needed Jesus and nothing else. Has anybody heard of this story? I guess I'm having a hard time with confusion because I know of or have read numerous experiences of people led to the Church in miraculous or otherwise clear ways. Because of this, I'm wondering what everyone's perspective is. Why do so many sincere people get so many clear, differing answers?

 

I believe it's because they ask with preconceived notions or with a sense of dissatisfaction.  In short, the "miraculous" anti-conversion stories are simply the relief they feel at being told what they want to hear.  I have experienced this with members of my own family.  First they are dissatisfied with the Church, then they are bitter, then they start looking elsewhere, then when they find some substitute or freedom that makes them feel good "BOOM" they have their "answer".

People don't get differing answers, they really don't.  What they do is interpret their feelings as being an answer, but our feelings our completely unreliable.  When we feel good about something we think it's from God, when we feel bad, well we think it can't be true.  Our limited feelings cloud truth more often than our limited knowledge.

Edited December 28, 2013 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

Lynn has a book out on Amazon and is a former BYU professor.  Her son Micah Wilder first came out to her as you said.  He and several missionaries did at around the same time.  They have a singing group called Adam's Road.  How can they read the NT and others on here read it and come out thinking significantly different.  They say read it as a little child or with new eyes. 

[Kenngo1969]

"Good news!  The Heavens are closed!  Prophets are long since dead ... since Biblical times!  You don't have to do any of the work of obtaining your own witness that what anyone purporting to be a 'prophet' in Mormonism says is true!  An immediate 10% raise!  No more thankless church 'volunteer' work!  You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

I can understand the allure of some of that ... but not all of it. (Talk about "selling one's birthright for a mess of pottage.")

[jwhitlock]

There are some principles that need to be remembered when evaluating the experiences of people who leave the church or remain in it: Note that these address those who are trying to do their best, and NOT those who intentionally commit sin or want to fully embrace the world. Those are somewhat different situations, and I don't think that's what the OP is talking about.

 

- God wants every one of us to be happy and will bless us and guide us to the extent we are willing or have the ability to accept the happiness He gives us. Ultimately He wants all of us to embrace the restored gospel and the full covenants that it entails (Plan A), but because individuals differ widely in their traits, abilities, circumstances, etc., they may not be able to do so currently.

- If a person can't embrace the gospel, then I believe God is willing to guide them to something that they can be happy with. Sometimes this is a "time out" situation to allow them to get their bearings and then go back to plan A. Sometimes though, Plan B (or C or T or whatever) is where they feel most comfortable.

- The differing kingdoms of glory (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial) take this into account. People end up in those kingdoms because that's where they are most comfortable because of who they are, and because God wants them to be as happy as they are capable of through eternity.

 

Elder Holland's remarks on the church web site concerning the experience he had in being led down the wrong road are perhaps instructive in this situation. If a person rejects the church for whatever reason, but still desires to search for God in their own way, then I think that He accommodates them. He would rather guide them to something as non-destructive as possible, rather than leaving them to themselves to flounder fully under Satan's influence. Some people who do leave the church have some level of guidance from God, even if (as JLHPROF mentioned) they are over or mis-interpreting that inspiration. It's the same thing we do with our own children; if they're going to make a wrong decision, and we see that there's no dissuading them, it is often in their best interest to support them in a "softer" landing with some guidance, rather than taking a hard line about either doing it right or getting no support at all.

 

We don't know all the circumstances that people are in. As President Uchtdorf has indicated, people do have doubts. We would love to see them in the church, but if not, then we (and God) wish them the best.

 

Hopefully that gives a little bit of perspective to the situation. It doesn't invalidate the truth of the restored gospel, but simply is evidence of the principle that God doesn't totally abandon someone just because they're leaving the church. He often will give them what guidance they are willing to receive in order to put them into the best alternate place available, even if that guidance is mis-interpreted by them.

[Five Solas]

...

 

An immediate 10% raise!  No more thankless church 'volunteer' work!  You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

I can understand the allure of some of that ... but not all of it. (Talk about "selling one's birthright for a mess of pottage.")

Christians tithe & Christians volunteer.  Buildings, utilities, salaries--all cost money and where do you suppose that comes from, Kenngo1969?  And few positions in your local Christian church are actually paid/vocational.  But an awful lot of LDS think as you do, in my experience.    

 

Talk about... needing to get out a little

;0)

 

--Erik

[EllenMaksoud]

So I regularly read realclearreligion.org, and recently read an article that was linked to Christianity Today about a woman named Lynn Wilder whose entire family left the Church when she said her son who came back from his mission said he read the bible and told the family that Mormonism wasn't true. From what I gather Lynn claimed to have a "born again" experience which implied that she needed Jesus and nothing else. Has anybody heard of this story? I guess I'm having a hard time with confusion because I know of or have read numerous experiences of people led to the Church in miraculous or otherwise clear ways. Because of this, I'm wondering what everyone's perspective is. Why do so many sincere people get so many clear, differing answers?

I wonder how many of those who get these "revelations" were already looking for a way out before hand?  Just looking briefly at the web site you mention, I wonder why a covenanted Mormon would go there?

 

My own conversion, which brought me TO the Mormons is quite powerful, and yes I was looking for a way out of Islam.

[jwhitlock]

Christians tithe & Christians volunteer.  Buildings, utilities, salaries--all cost money and where do you suppose that comes from, Kenngo1969?  And few positions in your local Christian church are actually paid/vocational.  But an awful lot of LDS think as you do, in my experience.    

 

Talk about... needing to get out a little

;0)

 

--Erik

 

I don't see anywhere where Kenngo said or even inferred that all Christians didn't tithe or didn't volunteer. He seemed to be talking about the attitudes of some who left the LDS church, possibly because activity in the church does require a great deal of time, and suddenly they feel like they don't have to do anything.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us on where he actually said or inferred what you're claiming here.  If not, perhaps you can retract this as an invalid point on your part.

[Helen47]

Have any of you seen the videos by John Morehead where he interviews various former LDS members who have joined other churches? Makes interesting viewing.They do not bag the LDS church but express their feelings about the different styles of worship they encounter from sacramental to charismatic.

[3DOP]

I don't see anywhere where Kenngo said or even inferred that all Christians didn't tithe or didn't volunteer. He seemed to be talking about the attitudes of some who left the LDS church, possibly because activity in the church does require a great deal of time, and suddenly they feel like they don't have to do anything.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us on where he actually said or inferred what you're claiming here.  If not, perhaps you can retract this as an invalid point on your part.

 

Hi jwhitlock, as a former Protestant, I had the same reaction as Five Solas and refrained from expressing it. Kenngo is a good guy and I like him. I just decided to let it pass, but he did say this which seems to indicate a possible stereotype that is held among Mormons:  You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

Mormons do indeed work hard, give much, go to a lot of meetings, and in general, have a faith that is the prime mover in their lives. When that is the case, it may be possible to think that it would be "easier" elsewhere. I have heard Catholics express the same kind of dismissals of Protestant religions because they perceive that Protestantism is in some real respect, "easy".

 

I think this is a terribly false perception. Mediocrity is easy, but to be a dedicated Protestant means that you witness to your neighbors, you might go door knocking every week like I did for well over a decade and give out tracts. You feel an obligation to practise private, but time consuming devotional activities. You probably teach a Sunday School class on top of everything else. Your faith is first and foremost. Like a former Protestant friend who was a good and strong influence on me (now deceased), you might get it into your head that you should preach at the city courthouse square and at the local rescue mission. I remember my first married year. We were broke, but we had to tithe "on our increase". It wasn't that anybody would be checking, but we thought this would please the Lord. As I understood it then, I needed to figure out how much money the gifts we got for Christmas was, and come up with 10% of that figure. We had to figure out how much it would have costed to take our car to the shop when a friend fixed our car because he cared about us. Sometimes we found it truly difficult to "afford" the gifts and services that relatives and friends wanted to provide us with!

 

You can be mediocre and find a place to hide in any religion. But if you really believe and are dedicated, you will be sacrificial as a Protestant, just as many dedicated Catholics and Mormons are. So I think our dear Kenngo displayed that he holds to a false stereotype. He is far from alone. I don't jump on my Catholic friends when they do that either, although perhaps I should gently suggest that they don't have quite the correct picture as I am trying to do now. Protestants can be wrong without adding laziness and greed to the equation.   

 

3DOP

Edited December 28, 2013 by 3DOP

[jwhitlock]

Hi jwhitlock, as a former Protestant, I had the same reaction as Five Solas and refrained from expressing it. Kenngo is a good guy and I like him. I just decided to let it pass, but he did say this which seems to indicate a possible stereotype that is held among Mormons:  You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

Mormons do indeed work hard, give much, go to a lot of meetings, and in general, have a faith that is the prime mover in their lives. When that is the case, it may be possible to think that it would be "easier" elsewhere. I have heard Catholics express the same kind of dismissals of Protestant religions because they perceive that Protestantism is in some real respect, "easy".

 

I think this is a terribly false perception. Mediocrity is easy, but to be a dedicated Protestant means that you witness to your neighbors, you might go door knocking every week like I did for well over a decade and give out tracts. You probably teach a Sunday School class on top of everything else. Like a former Protestant friend who was a good and strong influence on me (now deceased), you might get it into your head that you should preach at the city courthouse square and at the local rescue mission. I remember my first married year. We were broke, but we had to tithe "on our increase". It wasn't that anybody would be checking, but we thought this would please the Lord. As I understood it then, I needed to figure out how much money the gifts we got for Christmas was, and come up with 10% of that figure. We had to figure out how much it would have costed to take our car to the shop when a friend fixed our car because he cared about us. Sometimes we found it truly difficult to "afford" the gifts and services that friends wanted to provide us with!

 

You can be mediocre and find a place to hide in any religion. But if you really believe and are dedicated, you will be sacrificial as a Protestant, just as many dedicated Catholics and Mormons are. So I think our dear Kenngo displayed that he holds to a false stereotype. He is far from alone. I don't jump on my Catholic friends when they do that either, although perhaps I should gently suggest that they don't have quite the correct picture as I am trying to do now. Protestants can be wrong without adding laziness and greed to the equation.   

 

3DOP

 

Personally, I'd be rather surprised if Kenngo subscribed to that perspective of Christians outside the church. Five Solas has a fairly ingrained anti-Mormon background, and has a habit of nit-picking at things like this to tear down the church and its members. I'd be more inclined to fault FS's perspective of LDS church members, than I would be to fault Kenngo's perspective of non-LDS.

 

Nevertheless, I'll let Kenngo clarify things himself, if he feels like it. I simply saw it as being rather narrowly applied to the attitudes of some who leave the church, and not more broadly applicable on his part.

 

Being LDS on the east coast, I can say fairly confidently that Mormons recognize that members of other churches exist across the same spectrum as we do in our church. There are some on both sides that just sit in the pews on Sunday (or even not that often), just as there are those who are very actively involved on both sides. I would posit that it is a bit harder to get away with not doing anything in the LDS church, than it is in one of the big mega-church fellowships that exist in our neck of the woods, but that's just from my experience in talking with people I know outside the church. The church does tend to expect some level of involvement from its members, but that is in no way unique to us.

 

On the other hand, Five Solas didn't hesitate to make another stereotypical attack against Mormons by claiming that "an awful lot of LDS think" the way he claims Kenngo does. I reject that particular barb out of hand.

 

BTW, hope you had a great Christmas!

[Five Solas]

I don't see anywhere where Kenngo said or even inferred that all Christians didn't tithe or didn't volunteer. He seemed to be talking about the attitudes of some who left the LDS church, possibly because activity in the church does require a great deal of time, and suddenly they feel like they don't have to do anything.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us on where he actually said or inferred what you're claiming here.  If not, perhaps you can retract this as an invalid point on your part.

3DOP summed it up well in post #10.  And I'll add two small things: 

 

1) This "stereotype" among LDS is more than "possible"--it's prevalent in my experience. Perhaps this thread will be the start of its undoing

2) I like Kenngo too

:0)

 

--Erik

[jwhitlock]

3DOP summed it up well in post #10.  And I'll add two small things: 

 

1) This "stereotype" among LDS is more than "possible"--it's prevalent in my experience. Perhaps this thread will be the start of its undoing

2) I like Kenngo too

:0)

 

--Erik

 

And I'll respond to your point #1 and point out that your stereotype is false. Your "experience" seems to consist more of finding evidence for your preconceived negative notions about the church and its members than anything else.

[boblloyd91]

@ Ellen: I don't know exactly who you were referring to by "covenanted member" but I will assume you were referring to me. To answer the question, I am fascinated by religion and spirituality and religion particularly in the context of Christianity. I also am very interested in the various paths that claim Christ as their head. Because Mormonism is one, I am both nervous and interested in understanding what draws people to the faith of my fathers as well as away from it. The same is true for how I view Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, Fundamentalism, etc. etc. I have been on this journey since my two year mission to Iowa that ended in 2006. For me this journey involves understanding God's will, but also understanding very clearly what God's character is. There is so much good and beautiful that I see all over, especially in Mormonism, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. But I worry about being too relativistic, so with faith in Christ, I'm trying to figure out how this all works, and hope that he knows me, and my loved ones (which is most important to me) and that there will be a happy ending.

[Robert F. Smith]

Christians tithe & Christians volunteer.  Buildings, utilities, salaries--all cost money and where do you suppose that comes from, Kenngo1969?  And few positions in your local Christian church are actually paid/vocational.  But an awful lot of LDS think as you do, in my experience.    

 

Talk about... needing to get out a little

;0)

 

--Erik

Some of what you say is true, Erik, but you left much more unsaid:

 

The money is not rolling in for the mainstream Christian and Jewish congregations in America, and volunteerism is way down.  For most of those mainline denominations, fewer people come to meetings, and it has been generations since religion was a way of life rather than just Sabbath observance.  Very few of the professional clergy are tending megachurches or Hasidic congregations.  Since donations are way down, most have had to find additional ways to fund their bldgs.

 

Looking for extra revenue, for example, a Lutheran Church across the street from my ward in southern California had to install a cell site in its highest tower, and a local Roman Catholic Church did the same.  One denomination along the coast (Manhattan Beach, I think) put an array of solar panels on the roof in order to defray electric costs for the future.

 

Reform Judaism, in the midst of assimilation with non-Jews and with their birth-rate continuing to rapidly drop, have had to close their Hebrew Union College Biblical and Archaeological School in Jerusalem.  One Jewish scholar told me recently that only the orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews will remain healthy and vibrant as a community.  One might say the same for Christian evangelicalism.

 

A Mormon congregation can get by far more cheaply without professional clergy, and without professional musicians and singers (my uncle earned extra money singing in a Reform Jewish Congregation choir on Saturdays, when he was a divinity school grad student at Yale back in the late 30s, and I knew a lapsed Mormon who used to earn money playing the organ at a Methodist congregation in St Louis in the 1970s).

 

All that, in addition to the fact that Mormons tend to give far more per capita in charitable contributions to their own church as well as to other charities than other religions, provides the conclusion that those who are committed put their money where their mouth is.

[3DOP]

jwhitlock...

 

That is a very witty "Jack Handey." I like it. Taking the overused axiom literally. Very good. I hope you are still having a great Christmas! Seminary boy made it home the day after, "on the feast of Stephen" (if you know the song about King Wenceslaus.) It IS arguably the most wonderful time of the year.

 

In defense of Five Solas again, prevalence doesn't require that people announce the stereotype regularly. It just means that on those occasions when an opportunity provides, there is something said that is a tell tale sign. I think the stereotype is prevalent among Catholics, and understandably so. They do know about once saved always saved by faith alone. But that's about it. That kind of sets up the typical Catholic to misunderstand. Fear of the punishment of Hell remains a primitive but important motive that ought to get the mediocre Catholic "off his behind". Of course perfect love casts out fear and that is the best and perfect motive for our service before God. The Protestant doesn't worry about going to Hell anymore? Well, then of course he is going be a terror. Not necessarily so.

 

What the typical Catholic (and perhaps Mormon) forgets, is that there are other motives, even primitive ones like Hell, that can motivate the mediocre Evangelical who has lost his fervour. When I was a Protestant, I heard preaching on the belief that if God doesn't threaten you with eternal fire anymore, He has ways to make us sorry in this life for bad behavior. I don't want to give a bad impression of an angry Father here. A good father disciplines His children and the idea which I understood was that as a loving Father, God won't allow me to have a mediocre belief and practise. For my own good, as His child, He would be forced to "use the lash" as it were. As a Protestant, when higher motives of love did not do the trick, fear would kick in again. Eternal security or not, few of us are so concentrated on the next life that we are happy to welcome punishment in this life.

 

I think this doctrinal misperception makes it easy for Catholics and Mormons to imagine that Evangelicals can merrily do whatever they want without any repercussions. Maybe there a few ill-informed Evangelicals who behave this way? But I think it isn't malice that makes a probably large percentage of Catholics and Latter-day Saints think that Protestants have it easier than they really do. I think this stems from a lack of appreciation for Evangelical culture and implications of the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. It can be difficult for cradle Catholics or life long Mormons to appreciate how dedicated Protestants will be motivated to behave themselves as they understand their obligations before God.          

 

3DOP

Edited December 28, 2013 by 3DOP

[jwhitlock]

3DOP

 

That's what I like about the things you write; you have a good balance, perspective, and reasoning behind it. And since you like Jack Handey, that's an extra bonus!

 

To move up a level to the particular point at hand, it's important not to over-generalize a statement made by someone. Again, if Kenngo wants to clarify himself, I'll leave it at that, but it did have the flavor of hyperbole meant to make a point about Mormons who leave more than anything else. However, it's also important to understand that most church members reside outside of the state of Utah, and have more than a little experience with people of other churches. Bob Smith had a good point in his post about an identifiable trend in Protestant churches, but most of us LDS have enough non-LDS friends to understand that some people are very involved in their churches, while others are not. In the end, neither group kicks people out because they won't participate, so there's more commonality than anything between us.

 

I still disagree with the tone Five Solas uses and his use of "prevalence" in passing judgment on members of the church in general. Saying that something is prevalent is to claim that people across the church are culturally homogeneous and consistent with Utah culture, which is not the case. Enemies of the church use Utah as the standard for all accusations against the church and its members, and much of what they say doesn't particularly apply to people outside of Utah. Heck, much of what they say doesn't really apply to people inside of Utah. Understanding his agenda concerning the church is necessary in validating whether his claim is valid or not, and for me it stands on a rather sandy foundation.

 

Other than that, it is a valid point to say that where LDS are in the majority (or Catholics, or Islam, or any other group) then stereotypes concerning outsiders can easily become rather prevalent. If FS had confined his rather stark views to Utah Mormons, then the discussion would be between him and Kenngo. However, he didn't. He generalized about all Mormons, and in doing so undermined his entire claim. There are just too many of us outside of Utah with plenty of friends and acquaintances outside of the church to take his claim seriously. We know too much.

[3DOP]

I hold to a stereotype, hopefully true, when it comes to these groups that have to put up cell phone towers because the people won't give. They aren't being taught anything that make their faith worth sacrificing for. And that includes many Catholic parishes, as Robert pointed out one that he knows of. In the little chapel that I attend the offerings regularly exceed our expenses and we are saving for a future expansion. But we have pastors that won't let us rest and they nurture us to be willing to do more and more and more whether privately in our prayers and alms giving or publicly. We are lovingly admonished all the time that the faith is more than Sunday Mass attendance. But it only follows upon reflections about how much the good God loves us and has given all for us just so that we can be blessed forever in His presence. My Catholic faith is everything. Now this is where I find some commonality with my Protestant experience. The faith should shape everything I do.

 

Assuredly there are entire churches where a compartmentalization between religion and so called real life become predominating. I do believe this. Robert mentions symptoms that indicate it. That isn't the kind of Protestantism or Catholicism that I would defend. I guess if we could know that those who leave Mormonism or Catholicism are being drawn to that, I would say what Kenngo did about the recent "anti-converts". However, when a certain zeal, even if a hint of bitterness exists, I can be pretty confident that at least it is not the "lure of mediocrity" that is drawing the "anti-conversion". Ordinarily, those who go on religious message boards and the internet with their stories, are not afflicted with lazy mediocrity.

 

Understandably Mormons tire of the new anti-Mormons who become false "experts"  to non-Mormons. Likewise, it is saddening to me when former priests or laypeople leave the Catholic Church to start a ministry to Catholics who don't have "a personal relationship with Jesus". But I have to admire a newfound zeal. They never knew true Catholicism, according to my perspective. In a certain sense, I think they have moved closer to the true Catholic faith without even knowing it. As much as I can be saddened at "bitter zeal", because of the quick and rash judgments that accompany bitterness, I still find something good in the zeal. I find mediocre Christianity even more disgusting, and I can find important common points of belief with bitter zealots where I cannot with those who our Lord describes as neither hot nor cold.

Edited December 28, 2013 by 3DOP

[why me]

Why do so many sincere people get so many clear, differing answers?

I think that much is now happening in attempting to deconvert mormons by implying that all have spiritual experiences when it comes to truth confirmations. The idea is to lessen the lds experience. I have seen this tactic more in the last couple of years. When I ask a former mormon about how they can put their spiritual experiences while lds on the back burner, they usually reply that the lds do not have the corner when it comes to conversion stories or spiritual experiences. People from other faiths do also. So, all their spiritual experiences while they were members becomes suspect and useless to them.

 

The book of mormon has a promise in it. If one prays about that book with real intent one will get a confirmation of its truthfulmess. I know of no other faith that exclaims such an experience. So, I would suggest that mormonism stands alone in this. And that would make that spiritual experience so much more special.

Edited December 28, 2013 by why me

[jwhitlock]

nderstandably Mormons tire of the new anti-Mormons who become false "experts"  to non-Mormons. Likewise, it is saddening to me when former priests or laypeople leave the Catholic Church to start a ministry to Catholics who don't have "a personal relationship with Jesus". But I have to admire a newfound zeal. They never knew true Catholicism, according to my perspective. In a certain sense, I think they have moved closer to the true Catholic faith without even knowing it. As much as I can be saddened at "bitter zeal", because of the quick and rash judgments that accompany bitterness, I still find something good in the zeal. I find mediocre Christianity even more disgusting, and I can find important common points of belief with bitter zealots where I cannot with those who our Lord describes as neither hot nor cold.

 

 

I can agree wholeheartedly with this, as it also applies to some who leave Mormonism.

[Kenngo1969]

Christians tithe & Christians volunteer.  Buildings, utilities, salaries--all cost money and where do you suppose that comes from, Kenngo1969?  And few positions in your local Christian church are actually paid/vocational.  But an awful lot of LDS think as you do, in my experience.    

 

Talk about... needing to get out a little

;0)

 

--Erik

Oh, I get out plenty.  The difference between volunteerism in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that in other Christian churches is that, in the latter, if you happen to have a background in building maintenance or in finance, you might be asked to volunteer your time doing something similar for the church, while the person asked to do the same thing in the LDS Church may or may not have a background in maintenance or finance.  And if your Pastor feels you are equally yoked with him when it comes to laboring for the church and for the flock, more power to you both.  However, I daresay that if that's the case, you're the exception rather than the rule when comes to many (if not most) Christian churches.  And while I laud any and all contributions which are well used for religious, charitable, and noble purposes, such contributions to other churches aren't nearly as systematic as they are in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

As for finding bread, fish, and fruit rather than stones, serpents, thorns, and thistles in places other than the Church of Jesus Christ, I think this is a useful approach.  http://www.greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/ 

[Palerider]

I believe it's because they ask with preconceived notions or with a sense of dissatisfaction.  In short, the "miraculous" anti-conversion stories are simply the relief they feel at being told what they want to hear.  I have experienced this with members of my own family.  First they are dissatisfied with the Church, then they are bitter, then they start looking elsewhere, then when they find some substitute or freedom that makes them feel good "BOOM" they have their "answer".

People don't get differing answers, they really don't.  What they do is interpret their feelings as being an answer, but our feelings our completely unreliable.  When we feel good about something we think it's from God, when we feel bad, well we think it can't be true.  Our limited feelings cloud truth more often than our limited knowledge.

 

I guess this pretty much eradicates receiving a testimony of the BoM by getting a "good feeling" about it then doesn't it......... 

[Palerider]

"Good news!  The Heavens are closed!  Prophets are long since dead ... since Biblical times!  You don't have to do any of the work of obtaining your own witness that what anyone purporting to be a 'prophet' in Mormonism says is true!  An immediate 10% raise!  No more thankless church 'volunteer' work!  You can just park your butt in a pew an hour a week and let the pastor handle all the dirty work and the hard stuff!"

 

I can understand the allure of some of that ... but not all of it. (Talk about "selling one's birthright for a mess of pottage.")

 

I think this is a gross over-simplification of what true Christianity exists outside of the LDS box.

[Palerider]

There are some principles that need to be remembered when evaluating the experiences of people who leave the church or remain in it: Note that these address those who are trying to do their best, and NOT those who intentionally commit sin or want to fully embrace the world. Those are somewhat different situations, and I don't think that's what the OP is talking about.

 

- God wants every one of us to be happy and will bless us and guide us to the extent we are willing or have the ability to accept the happiness He gives us. Ultimately He wants all of us to embrace the restored gospel and the full covenants that it entails (Plan A), but because individuals differ widely in their traits, abilities, circumstances, etc., they may not be able to do so currently.

- If a person can't embrace the gospel, then I believe God is willing to guide them to something that they can be happy with. Sometimes this is a "time out" situation to allow them to get their bearings and then go back to plan A. Sometimes though, Plan B (or C or T or whatever) is where they feel most comfortable.

- The differing kingdoms of glory (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial) take this into account. People end up in those kingdoms because that's where they are most comfortable because of who they are, and because God wants them to be as happy as they are capable of through eternity.

 

Elder Holland's remarks on the church web site concerning the experience he had in being led down the wrong road are perhaps instructive in this situation. If a person rejects the church for whatever reason, but still desires to search for God in their own way, then I think that He accommodates them. He would rather guide them to something as non-destructive as possible, rather than leaving them to themselves to flounder fully under Satan's influence. Some people who do leave the church have some level of guidance from God, even if (as JLHPROF mentioned) they are over or mis-interpreting that inspiration. It's the same thing we do with our own children; if they're going to make a wrong decision, and we see that there's no dissuading them, it is often in their best interest to support them in a "softer" landing with some guidance, rather than taking a hard line about either doing it right or getting no support at all.

 

We don't know all the circumstances that people are in. As President Uchtdorf has indicated, people do have doubts. We would love to see them in the church, but if not, then we (and God) wish them the best.

 

Hopefully that gives a little bit of perspective to the situation. It doesn't invalidate the truth of the restored gospel, but simply is evidence of the principle that God doesn't totally abandon someone just because they're leaving the church. He often will give them what guidance they are willing to receive in order to put them into the best alternate place available, even if that guidance is mis-interpreted by them.

 

And don't forget this possibility. That the LDS faith really isn't what it purports to be and that those who leave the church with their integrity intact are possibly more right than you know.

[jwhitlock]

The...

 

And how is this relevant to the OP? Or are you just throwing out a bunch of sound bites to see if anything will stick?